Philip Turnor

Philip set sail from the Thames River on board the HBC "Sloop King George" on May 20, 1778. The famous surveyor as per Red River Ancestry.ca. He arrived at York Factory on Aug. 24, 1778. His brother John was also on the same voyage as master of the Severn sloop. Info from Red River Ancestry.ca

TURNOR, PHILIP, HBC inland surveyor; b. c. 1751; d. 1799 or 1800.

When first engaged by the Hudson’s Bay Company on 30 April 1778, Philip Turnor was described as a resident “of Laleham Middx. 27 yrs. age not marry’d brot up in farming business.” Recommended to the London committee by William Wales, who had spent the winter of 1768–69 at Prince of Wales’s Fort (Churchill, Man.), Turnor signed on with the company to serve as an inland surveyor for three years at £50 per annum, and sailed for York Factory (Man.), arriving there on 24 Aug. 1778.

Although the company had previously encouraged such servants as Joseph Robson* and Anthony Henday* to survey and explore its holdings in Rupert’s Land, Turnor was the first to be engaged specifically as a surveyor to map “the Lattitudes and Longitudes of all their settlements . . . also their respective distances from each regularly adjusted.” After surveying the grounds of York he was ordered by Humphrey Marten, chief at York, to map the route to Cumberland House (Sask.) and the newly established post of Upper Hudson House (near Wandsworth, Sask.), and then, if possible, to make his way to Fort Albany and Moose Factory (Ont.) “thro the Lakes inland.” He reached Cumberland on 11 Oct. 1778 and the following March he, William Walker, and others set out with a dog-team on the 280-mile journey over ice to Upper Hudson House, arriving there on the 19th. He was prevented from attempting to survey the Canadians’ upper settlement, in the Eagle Hills (to the south of Battleford, Sask.), by the news that a band of Indians had killed two of the Canadians and plundered the post. Turnor returned to York on 15 July by canoe with the information he later incorporated into his “Chart of the rivers and lakes falling into Hudsons Bay according to a survey taken in the years 1778 & 9.”

Turnor was next involved in surveying the route from Albany to its two outposts, Henley House (at the junction of the Albany and Kenogami rivers, Ont.) and Gloucester House (Washi Lake, Ont.). After spending the early winter of 1779 at Albany with Thomas Hutchins, Turnor set out in February 1780 to walk to Henley with five others. Eleven days later he arrived, snow-blind and exhausted. He rested until mid-March, but was prevented from continuing to Gloucester by lack of provisions, and returned to Albany. In June 1780 he set out for Gloucester once more, by canoe, and reached it on 8 July. Returning to Albany on 11 August, he sailed to Moose in September, and that December he walked back to Albany “to take a sketch of the coast as it appears in Winter.” On 22 Jan. 1781 he set out to visit Rupert River (Que.) and Eastmain House (at the mouth of Rivière Eastmain, Que.). After failing in his attempt to walk to Mesagamy Lake (Kesagami Lake, Ont.) in April, Turnor travelled in May to Wapiscogamy (later Brunswick) House (near the junction of the Opasatika and Missinaibi rivers, Ont.), Moose’s new outpost. He spent June surveying the route from there to Michipicoten House, a Canadian post at the mouth of the Michipicoten River on Lake Superior. He then tried to reach the Canadian post on Lake Abitibi (Ont.) but found the rivers too difficult. He was back at Moose on 13 July. A second attempt to get to Abitibi in August failed, but Turnor agreed when he renewed his contract in September 1781 to trade at Abitibi. While at Moose he drew plans in March 1782 for a new post at Henley. That May he left for Abitibi, returning on 2 August.

Although employed as a surveyor, Turnor took charge of Brunswick House on 14 Oct. 1782. During the winter he suffered so badly from rheumatism that he was unable to go down to Moose in March 1783 to consider company policy after the capture of York and Prince of Wales’s Fort by the Comte de Lapérouse [Galaup]. Turnor served as master at Brunswick until the spring of 1784, when he was ordered to establish a new post “towards Abitibi.” He left Moose in June with two large and four small canoes and two new bateaux. All his craft proved defective, however, and he was forced to stop 80 miles short of Lake Abitibi. After wintering at the junction of the Abitibi and Frederick House rivers, he moved south the following spring and built a post on the shores of Frederick House Lake (Ont.). He served there as master until July 1787, when he was sent out to survey the Canadian posts in the Lake Abitibi-Lake Timiskaming region. He then returned to Moose and sailed for England in command of the Beaver sloop on 9 September.

In London Turnor worked on his maps and in November 1788 was paid 20 guineas by the HBC for his “Draught of several inland settlements belonging to the company.” He was also probably consulted about the notion of establishing a trade route from the Saskatchewan River to Lake Athabasca (Alta) and from there to the Pacific. Peter Pond*, a Montreal-based trader, had traded at Lake Athabasca in 1778–79, making an enormous profit and producing a map which made a route to the Pacific seem feasible. The possibility of a trade route through Rupert’s Land, in an age still hoping for a northwest passage to China, concerned Alexander Dalrymple, Samuel Hearne, William Wales, and the London committee. Turnor, who had recovered his health, was engaged on 16 May 1789 primarily to establish the position of Lake Athabasca and to find a route to it from the Saskatchewan River. He reached York Factory on 27 August and left for Cumberland, arriving there on 7 October.

During the winter of 1789–90 at Cumberland Turnor taught surveying to Peter Fidler* and David Thompson*, who was recovering from a broken leg. In June 1790, while awaiting the arrival of supplies, Turnor met Alexander Mackenzie*, who told him of his trip down the Mackenzie River (N.W.T.) to the sea. Turnor wrote that Mackenzie “thinks it the Hyperborean Sea but he does not seem acquainted with Observations which makes me think he is not well convinced where he has been.”

The party that set out for Lake Athabasca on 13 September consisted of Malchom Ross and his Indian wife and two children, Turnor, Fidler, and four Orkney servants, all in two canoes. Badly provisioned, the party was constantly helped by Canadian traders. At Île-à-la-Crosse (Sask.) its members wintered in two houses lent to them by Patrick Small, a Canadian, who also provisioned them when they set out the following May. Turnor arrived at Fort Chipewyan (Alta), on Lake Athabasca, on 28 June 1791. From there he canoed down Slave River to Great Slave Lake (N.W.T.). Deciding it was too late to explore farther to the northwards, he returned to Lake Athabasca and spent most of August trying to find a way from the east end of the lake into Churchill River. He then returned to a house which Ross was building near the Canadian fort. Turnor, who kept a careful record of the trade at Fort Chipewyan, considered the post to be “the Grand Magazine of the Athapiscow Country,” and concluded that the Canadians could afford to compete at a loss elsewhere as long as they kept their monopoly of the rich Athabascan trade. Convinced that the Indians would patronize a HBC post if one were built there, he began preparations for his return journey in April, before the ice was clear from the Athabasca River, in the hope of getting to York in time to persuade the council there to send supplies and establish a post. Although he reached York on 17 July, he did not carry his point, since, as he believed, William Tomison*, chief inland, “had set his face against any undertaking to the Northward.” Turnor returned to England in October 1792.

In London the apathy of the York council was overruled. In 1793 Ross was ordered to organize an expedition to the Athabasca country and to establish a post there. Though the project proved endlessly difficult it ultimately proved crucial to the company’s fortunes. In the mean time Turnor worked on his maps and in 1795 was given by the London committee the watch he had used on his trips as well as £100 “in consideration of his services in having surveyed the Company’s several Settlements & explored several New Tracts & laid down the same in a large and accurate Map.”

In retirement Turnor lived at Rotherhithe (London), and taught navigation. Apart from his formal relations with the HBC little is known of him. Obviously a courageous and conscientious man and a competent traveller and surveyor, he left no intimate or personal records. He must have died shortly after 4 Dec. 1799, when he last wrote to the company, for on 26 March 1800 the London committee read “a Petition from Elizabeth Turnor Wife of Philip Turnor Geographer to this Company, lately deceased, praying for some pecuniary assistance.”

The importance of Turnor’s work lies within the general context of the surveying effort launched by the HBC in 1778. Seeking to establish the positions of its inland posts and the river routes that linked them, the company amassed a wealth of information concerning the interior of North America that was published as a map in 1795 by Aaron Arrowsmith, the London cartographer. Entitled “A map exhibiting all the new discoveries in the interior parts of North America,” the Arrowsmith map was often reissued and became the basis of many subsequent maps of Canada. Indeed, as Arrowsmith wrote in 1794, the work of the company’s servants, Turnor among them, “had laid the permanent Foundation for the Geography of that part of the Globe.”

E. E. Rich

HBRS, XIV (Rich and Johnson), XV (Rich and Johnson). Journals of Hearne and Turnor (Tyrrell), [Alexander Mackenzie], The journals and letters of Sir Alexander Mackenzie, ed. and intro. W. K. Lamb (Cambridge, Eng., 1970). Moose Fort journals, 1783–85, ed. E. E. Rich and A. M. Johnson, intro. G. P. de T. Glazebrook (London, 1954). [David Thompson], David Thompson’s narrative, 1784–1812, ed. R. [G.] Glover (new ed., Toronto, 1962). Rich, History of HBC, II.

General Bibliography

http://www.redriverancestry.ca/TURNOR-PHILIP-1751.php

PHILIP TURNOR (1751-1799) ELIZABETH WHITE BEAR (c1752-?) (Last Updated: December 18, 2013)

Philip TURNOR was born around 1751 in Laleham, Middlesex, England. His exploits and travels are fairly well documented by Edwin Ernest RICH in his Biography of Philip TURNOR which can be seen using the following Link:

• * BIOGRAPHY of PHILIP TURNOR

Weston: Philip TURNOR bade farewell to family and friends at Laleham, Middlesex, England on May 20, 1778 and set sail from the Thames River on board the HBC Sloop King George. His brother John was also on the same voyage as master of the Severn sloop. ** MORE ABOUT JOHN TURNER

Philip Arrives at York Factory 1778

On Aug 24, 1778 Philip arrived at York Factory, having signed on with the Hudson’s Bay Company (HBC) to serve as an inland surveyor for three years at £50 per annum. The Chief Factor at York was Humphrey MARTIN (1766-1818). Philip was then described as 27 year old farmer’s son, not married.

After surveying the grounds of York, Philip was ordered by MARTIN to map the route to Cumberland House (SK).

Philip spent his first winter (1778-79) at Cumberland House. He returned to York by canoe on July 15, 1779.

Opinions regarding Philip’s Wife Elizabeth 1779

Who was Philip’s wife? There is no documented evidence (that I am aware of) with regard to Philip’s wife, only opinions. One suggests that she was an Eskimo woman, another that she was an Indian (either Cree or Ojibway). Most of the circumstantial evidence suggest that she and Philip began a connubial relationship at Cumberland House around 1778-79. That (in my opinion) debunks the notion that she was an Eskimo woman. It is highly unlikely that there were any Eskimos living in the Cumberland House area around that time. This was the heartland of Cree, Ojibway and Chipewyan Indians who were all historically known to be hostile to Eskimos.

My reference - Gottfred: For years, it was against HBC policy to permit their employees (called servants) to marry Native women. Marriages took place anyway— after all, the company executives who made this policy were in London— and sometimes the employees tried to explain why they broke the rules. When Samuel HEARNE and his men built Cumberland House in 1774, it was the first HBC post to be established at a significant distance from Hudson Bay. As they prepared to spend their first winter there, HEARNE arranged for two or three Native women to stay with them. He explained that he needed them to 'Make, Mend, Knitt Snowshoes &c. for us during the winter.' In 1789, HBC clerk & surveyor Philip TURNOR noted that 'Women are as useful as men upon the Journeys.' - - It was usual for the Montreal-based fur traders (North West Company employees) to provide clothing for their employees, their wives and families. This irritated HBC clerk & surveyor Philip TURNOR. In 1779, he complained to the London Committee that 'if he [a Canadian clerk] chuses (chooses) to keep a girl which most of them does the Masters finds her in Apparel so that they need not spend one farthing of their Wages...' ** Link: “WOMEN of the FUR TRADE” by A. GOTTFRED

My reference – Pearl: The anthology “Across the River” was first published in 1995 by Pearl WESTON, herself a descendant of Philip through his son Joseph TURNER (1783-1875). (This is apparently out of print now) In her anthology, Pearl refers to Philip’s wife as” an Eskimo woman”, and this seems to have perpetuated that contention. (I repeat, there is no evidence to support this) Nevertheless, Pearl, as a direct descendant appears to have been privy to a great deal of information about Philip’s activities and about his descendants and is definitely a source to be reckoned with. In her anthology she frequently refers to Philip’s journals and diaries and it is obvious that she had read them and may have even had them in her possession.

earl: In 1782 he (Philip TURNOR) went to take charge at Brunswick House. While there he became very ill and even when instructed to return to Moose Fort after the Prince of Wales and York Forts being taken and destroyed by fire. After recovering he then went on to build the first HBC trading post in the Abitibi region, it was called Frederick House (see map above). During this time he married an Eskimo woman and had three children, two boys and one girl. It was common practice for fur traders to take native women as marital partners. After exchanging brief vows before a few witnesses at a fort, the marriage contracted after the custom of the country was regarded as a union for life. Pearl’s reference ’during this time’ is a rather vague one. If he had three children by 1782 they were obviously born well before he took charge of Brunswick House.

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From the foregoing it is evident that by 1779 Philip was in a connubial relationship with a woman who was named Margaret. My opinion is that this was Elizabeth WAPUSK (BEAR). WAPUSK or WAPISK is a Cree word for “White Bear”, more commonly associated with the polar bear. The reference to a polar bear (usually associated with Eskimos) may have been what started the notion that Margaret was an Eskimo.

It is my guess that Philip’s first child was John or WHITE BEAR aka TURNER, born around 1780 in the Cumberland House area. I humbly submit the opinion that the ‘white’ part of his name may have had to do with the fact that he was an Indian of the BEAR Clan who had white father. ** MORE ABOUT WHITE BEAR aka TURNER**

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Back to the Chronology 1778-79
Union of Philip & Elizabeth WHITE BEAR at Cumberland House

In 1778-79 Philip TURNOR spent his first winter at Cumberland House. I contend that it was there that Philip began a connubial relationship with Elizabeth WAPUSK/ WAPISK (WHITE BEAR) and it was there that their first child (John) was conceived. Where do we find Elizabeth and her children after Philip left her in 1792? – Cumberland House, where she had the support of her BEAR relatives and family.

On July 15, 1779, Philip returned to York Factory by canoe. It was there that Elizabeth gave birth to their first child, (John) WHITE BEAR aka TURNER (conceived at Cumberland says I).

RICH: TURNOR was next involved in surveying the route from Albany to its two outposts, Henley House (at the junction of the Albany and Kenogami rivers, Ont.) and Gloucester House (Washi Lake, Ont.). After spending the early winter of 1779 at Albany with Thomas HUTCHINS (1742-1790), TURNOR set out in February 1780 to walk to Henley with five others. - -

In September of 1781 TURNOR renewed his contract to trade at Abitibi.

LAPEROUSE Attacks York Factory 1782

In 1782 Humphrey MARTIN (1766-1818) was the Chief Factor at York Factory when it was attacked and destroyed by the French navigator Jean-Francois LAPEROUSE. The fort was destroyed and MARTIN and his men were taken prisoner to France where they were later released. ** MORE ABOUT LAPEROUSE On Aug 24, 1782, the fort was destroyed and MARTIN and his men were taken prisoner to France where they were later released. Philip’s brother, John TURNER, was among the prisoners taken that day. There are no indications that John TURNER ever returned to the Bay thereafter.

RICH: On Oct 14, 1782, although employed as a surveyor, TURNOR took charge of Brunswick House. During the winter he suffered so badly from rheumatism that he was unable to go down to Moose in March 1783 to consider company policy after the capture of York and Prince of Wales’s Fort by the Comte de LAPEROUSE.

Philp's Diary: Dec 25, 1782: "I finally get to come home for Christmas and see my wife and child. It will feel good to have a nice warm bed and a full breakfast. I think I should quit my job." I am guessing that Philip’s second child, Joseph, was born around 1783-84.

David THOMPSON Arrives 1785

In 1785 David THOMPSON (1770-1857) arrived at York as an assistant to Humphrey MARTIN. ** MORE ABOUT DAVID THOMPSON in DCBO

In the summer of 1788, 19 year old Peter FIDLER (1769-1822) arrived at York as a labourer. ** MORE ABOUT PETER FIDLER

Philip sails to England Marriage to Elizabeth HALLETT 1787-1789

Pearl: On Sept. 9, 1787, Philip sailed for England in command of The Beaver sloop, beside the Company's King George sloop. While there he drafted the maps of his travels.

In 1788 Philip married in Battersea, Surrey, England (near the heart of London) to Elizabeth HALLETT, daughter of Elizabeth and Thomas HALLETT (1710-1778) who were also the grandparents of Henry HALLETT (1773-1844) who also had a long career with the HBC and the North West Company. ** MORE ABOUT HENRY HALLETT

Cumberland House 1789-1792

Pearl: On May 16, 1789, Philip renewed his contract as Inland Surveyor to the HBC for three years at 80 pounds per year. He was given the task of beginning at Cumberland House and surveying toward Athabasca Lake and from there to find a way to the coast. He set sail once again on the King George. It is recorded on this travel that he mentioned leaving his home and wife behind. He arrived at York Fort on Aug 27, 1789. He then sent a letter to the London Committee stating, “I should esteem it a singular favor if Your Honors would assist my wife in case she should apply as her happiness is of more consequence to my quiet of mind than my views of going in this Country. She was apparently paid 20 pounds that October, and another 40 pounds in 1790, which was 30 pound less than what she had requested. The Committee asked Philip to mention the specific sum that he wished her to have annually.

During the winter of 1789–90 at Cumberland Philip taught surveying to Peter FIDLER and David THOMPSON, who was recovering from a broken leg. In June 1790, while awaiting the arrival of supplies, TURNOR met Alexander MACKENZIE (1764-1820), who told him of his trip down the Mackenzie River (N.W.T.) to the sea.

I am guessing that daughter Hannah was born around 1790; conceived and born while Philip was back at Cumberland House.

Philip Returns to England 1792

RICH/ Pearl: In October of 1792 TURNOR returned to England. In his retirement he lived at Rotherhithe (London), and taught navigation.

RICH: Apart from his formal relations with the HBC little is known of him. Obviously a courageous and conscientious man and a competent traveler and surveyor, he left no intimate or personal records.

He must have died shortly after 4 Dec. 1799, when he last wrote to the company, for on March 26, 1800 the London committee read “a Petition from Elizabeth TURNOR Wife of Philip TURNOR Geographer to this Company, lately deceased, praying for some pecuniary assistance.

From 1800 onward, very little is known for certain what became of Philip’s Indian wife and family, last known to have been at Cumberland House. We can only speculate. I have already indicated my belief that she was Elizabeth BEAR or WHITE BEAR and that her eldest child was WHITE BEAR (perhaps John) aka TURNER, about 20 years old by that time, perhaps already married to a Cree woman named A-KEE-NA-SOM. In 1800 son Joseph was about 17 years old and there were two daughters, Mary Aggathas (about 15) and Hannah (about 10 years old).

Around 1804 Alexander KENNEDY (1781-1832), an HBC employee, was at Cumberland House when Mary Aggathas BEAR became his wife. On Jan 29, 1805 their first child (John Frederick) was born there. KENNEDY was in charge at Cumberland until in 1808 he was sent to Fort Hibernia in the Swan River District.

Please post comments or queries at this Link: FORUM DISCUSSIONS about PHILIP TURNOR

==================== Family Details =====================

Children: 1. c1780 (JOHN?) WHITE BEAR aka TURNER (m. A-KEE-NA-A-SON, a Cree Woman)

• * MORE ABOUT WHITE BEAR aka TURNER 2. 1783 JOSEPH TURNER (m. Emma)
  • MORE ABOUT JOSEPH TURNER 3. c1785 MARY AGGATHAS BEAR (m. Alexander KENNEDY)
  • MORE ABOUT ALEXANDER KENNEDY