Vincent Cirone

DP-04
VINCENT CIRONE
BIRTH DATE: 1918
INTERVIEW DATE: MARCH 23, 1989
RUNNING TIME: 45:00
INTERVIEWER: ANDREW PHILLIPS
RECORDING ENGINEER: UNKNOWN
INTERVIEW LOCATION: FRANKLIN PARK, ILLINOIS
TRANSCRIPT ORIGINALLY PREPARED BY: NANCY VEGA, 1989
TRANSCRIPT RECONCEIVED BY: NANCY VEGA, 4/1995
TRANSCRIPT REVIEWED BY: MIKE FAZIO AND LYDIA HANHARDT, 6/1995

SICILY, 1923
AGE 5
SHIP NAME NOT RECALLED, LATER PASSAGE ON "THE REX"

PHILLIPS: This is Andrew Phillips and I'm speaking with Vincent

          Cirone, right?

CIRONE: Right.

PHILLIPS: With the Italian C-I-R-O-N-E. This is interview

          number 378 [DP-4] and it is the 23rd of March, on

          Thursday, and in 1989.  And we are beginning this

          interview at about 12:15.  And Mr. Cirone is from

          Italy, or Sicily.

CIRONE: Sicily.

PHILLIPS: From Sicily.

CIRONE: Palermo.

PHILLIPS: From Palermo, in Sicily.
PHILLIPS: A little town, uh, a little town east of Palermo.

PHILLIPS: Tell me what year you were born.

CIRONE: I was born in 1918.

PHILLIPS: What year did you immigrate to the United States?

CIRONE: It was in April. We arrived on, at Ellis Island April

          the 23rd, 1923.

PHILLIPS: Okay. So 1923 and 1918, so that was, yeah, you were

          pretty, you were pretty young.  You were only five

          years of age.

CIRONE: Yes, I was five years old. In fact, I was just five.

          My birthday is on March the 3rd.

PHILLIPS: So let me, let me take you back. What I'd like to do

          is to take you back to your memories and perhaps the

          stories that your parents told you about the old

          country, about Sicily and Palermo and life back there. 

          And, uh, what it was like for you when you were born. 

          Where were you born, actually?

CIRONE: I was born in the little town of Altavilla, Milicia,

          see.  And that's about fourteen miles east of Palermo. 

          And, uh, it was a small town and, uh, my father, he

          was a barber there.  And we had property, we had olive

          groves and we had, uh, regular farming land.  And we

          had, uh, lemon groves.  You see, in fact, we've still

          got some of those, some of that there property yet,

          see.  And that's the story of how the people used to

          live over there, see.  They didn't have, it wasn't,

          their property wasn't all in one place.  They were

          scattered.  Some people, like, we had property up in

          the mountain, then we had property along the seashore,

          along the Tyrrhenian Sea.  And that's the way people

          had their property out there.  That's the way they

          used to make a living.  But my father was a barber,

          see.  My grandfather, he was a doctor, a dentist and a

          barber.  ( he laughs )  See, in those days when a

          person used to have a toothache they used to go to the

          barber shop, see.  And, uh, he probably gave them a

          slug of whisky or something like that, and he would

          pull his teeth out, see.  Or if somebody got shot,

          see, my grandfather would go over there and take the

          bullets out.  ( he laughs )  That's a fact, see.

PHILLIPS: Why would somebody get shot?

CIRONE: Well, that's the way it was in those days, see.

          People used to walk around with guns and with daggers,

          with knives in their pockets, see.  Now I'm talking

          about my grandfather's time.  At least, that's what I

          used to hear, see.

PHILLIPS: So your parents sounded like they earned a fairly

          decent living, you were.

CIRONE: Oh, yes. My father made a pretty good living out in

          Italy, see.  The only reason why he came over here to

          the United States is because of my two brothers.  They

          were born in the United States, then they want back to

          Italy when they were small.  My father went, you know,

          when my father went back.  You see, my father became a

          citizen in 1906, see.  And, uh, he had an older son. 

          My oldest brother, he was born in Italy, see.  And

          then in 19--, my father became a citizen in 1906 and,

          uh, my two brothers were born here.  ( voices off

          mike )  ( break in tape )  See, my, two of my brothers

          were born here, Anthony and Mike, see.  Then when they

          were young, when they were just kids, children, see,

          my father went back to the old country.

PHILLIPS: And these brothers were older than you, and this was

          before you were born.

CIRONE: Yes. That's way, way before I was born. My oldest

          brother was old enough to be my father.  In fact, he

          was, he served in the Italian Army, my oldest brother,

          with my father.  ( he laughs )  My father was a barber

          in the army, too, see.

PHILLIPS: That was during the first war.

CIRONE: During the First World War, yeah. And, well,

          naturally, I was born during the First World War, see. 

          And we lived there in Italy all those years.  My, then

          my sister was born.  My brother, my other brother was

          born, my brother Frank.  My sister Nancy was born, and

          then I was born.  So that, that kind of sort of, uh,

          made it quite a few years that we stayed in Italy

          before we came back here again, see.  And we came back

          here, it was in, uh, in April.  In fact, it was April

          the 23rd that the boat, uh, landed at Ellis Island,

          see.  I remember that.  Well, I remember that because

          my father used to talk about it, see.  And, uh, we

          stayed in Ellis Island for about six months.

PHILLIPS: Before we talk about Ellis Island and the actual

          arrival and what you did there, why did your father

          decide to leave?

CIRONE: To leave the country?

PHILLIPS: To leave Italy.

CIRONE: Well, over here there was, uh, there was, uh, the

          times were bad.  He had a barber shop and he wasn't

          doing too well, see.  And over there he had a barber

          shop, and not only did he have the barber shop, but he

          had all that property.  He had property up in the

          mountain that was olive grove, he had property below

          the mountain that was olive grove, see.  And then he

          had, along the seashore he had, uh, he had land that

          he used to raise beans and vegetables and fruit trees,

          all kinds of fruit trees.  Any kind of fruit tree that

          you thought about it, he, my father had it there, see. 

          Even trees, even food that you never heard of, my

          father had.  Even banana tree, see.  And, uh, he was

          making a good living over there.  He figures, over

          here I'm starving, see, if I go back over there, I'm

          doing pretty good, see.  Which he did.

PHILLIPS: Let me ask you, so you are now describing why he went

          back to Italy, and why he left the United States.

CIRONE: That's the reason.

PHILLIPS: Let me take you back a little bit further, and ask you

          why he originally came from Italy to the United States

          the first time.

CIRONE: The first time, well, that's pretty hard to think

          about.  It's, it could be because maybe my mother had

          two brothers that were living here, see.  Or maybe

          just adventure, see.  My father, he wasn't a man to

          stay in one place too long, see.  He came, he used to

          go back and forth quite a few times.

PHILLIPS: Travelling on the boat.

CIRONE: Travelling on the boat, yeah, see.

PHILLIPS: So he came across for the first time and saw his

          brothers-in-law.

CIRONE: Probably, sure.
PHILLIPS: Where were they?

CIRONE: They were here in Chicago, see. And that's where my

          father came, to Chicago, the first time.  And here's

          where he, and Chicago is where he became an American

          citizen.

PHILLIPS: What did he do in Chicago when he arrived?

CIRONE: He was a barber, always.

PHILLIPS: Downtown?

CIRONE: No. He opened up a barber shop in the neighborhood.

PHILLIPS: Which neighborhood?

CIRONE: Well, at that time I don't remember. I wasn't even

          born at that time, so I really couldn't say what

          neighborhood, see.  But, uh, I know that when we were

          living in Brooklyn, when we came the second time.

PHILLIPS: So let's just get this. Then he decides that life

          isn't as good as he thought it was going to be, is

          that it?  And he hasn't got as much land.

CIRONE: Yeah. He didn't have nothing over here, see. Where

          over there we had a lot, quite a bit of property.

PHILLIPS: So he goes back to Italy.

CIRONE: Yeah. And he was making a good living over there,

          see.  Then, you know, naturally, my brothers, my

          brothers that were born here, they were small, see. 

          And, uh, he took them back with him.  Now, you take my

          brother, my oldest brother, eight years old, he was a

          barber.  He was cutting hair and shaving people.  My,

          uh, my brother Anthony, which is the next oldest, see,

          he was, uh, he must have been about ten years old, and

          he was doing the same thing, see.  My brother Mike the

          same way too.  He must have been around ten years old

          when he was barbering in Italy too, see.  But then

          when they became seventeen years old, now, you could

          realize.  So they might have gone back, when those two

          that were born in the United States might have been

          maybe, maybe a year old, or two year old, see.  And

          when they became seventeen years old, being that they

          were American citizens, they wanted to come back to

          America, see.  And they did.

PHILLIPS: After having, after having fought in the first World

          War.

CIRONE: No, that was my older brother, my oldest brother, see.

          He came after we did, he came, way after we did, see.

PHILLIPS: So your father decides to, or your brothers, in fact,

          decide why.  Let me ask you the question why did they

          all come back to America after going back to Italy

          where life was so good?

CIRONE: Because my two brothers, they were born in the United

          States.  When they became seventeen years old they

          took off and they came to the United States.  And they

          were living with my uncle, my mother's brother, see. 

          And, uh, then my mother, you know how a mother is,

          "Oh, my two boys over there."  They, you know, she,

          uh, she was worried about them, see.  And she was

          pressuring my father, and before you know it my father

          said, okay, let's go back to America, see.  And that's

          when we came, see.  But you've got to realize, though,

          now, like I said, my brothers, they might have been

          maybe one or two years old when they went back to

          Italy, and when they were seventeen years old they

          came back.  And I probably wasn't even born then, see. 

          Oh, I might have been born, yeah, see.  So, and then

          he had all his childrens over there, see.  So that's a

          long, long time before that's my father went back,

          came back to the United States.

PHILLIPS: Okay. So now the second time he comes back to the

          United States, this time he's got you with him.

CIRONE: This time he's got me with him, yeah.

PHILLIPS: What happens?

CIRONE: What happens? It's that we, uh, we landed at Ellis

          Island and they kept us there for six months.

PHILLIPS: Why?

CIRONE: See, well, it's because of, uh, I would say it would

          be political, see, because being that my father stayed

          in Italy so long, he probably never had his passport

          renewed, or maybe, maybe he might even have had an

          Italian passport.  Who knows.  You see, I don't know

          for sure, see.  But, uh, but they wouldn't let us in

          because they thought that, my father lost his

          citizenship, see.  So naturally being that my two

          brothers were here, my uncles were here, and then we

          had relatives that were politically involved, see. 

          They kind of, knew people, and they got a hold of a

          good lawyer, see.

PHILLIPS: So tell me, what were they politically involved in?

CIRONE: Because they were, my father was in Italy too long,

          and they thought that he lost his citizenship.

PHILLIPS: But you said you had relatives here who were

          politically involved also.

CIRONE: Yeah. Politically involved. They're, they're the

          ones that got the lawyers and, uh, see.  

PHILLIPS: They had political friends.

CIRONE: Friends, yes. In other words, they had a little pull.

          In those days pull meant a lot, see.  But it took

          about six months to get, get that all cleared up, see. 

          And, uh, going through courts and all that, see, it

          was proven that a man does not lose his citizenship,

          see.  As far as the children were concerned, we could

          have come into the United States any time, as long as

          there was somebody that would take care of us, because

          we were all kids, see.  But the point is my father and

          my mother, see, they didn't know.  Because according

          to an act of congress, we were American born, even

          though we were born in Italy, see.  And, uh, it was

          proven that once, that a man does not lose his

          citizenship.  He may lose his rights, but not his

          citizenship.

PHILLIPS: In this case, was this, do you know, was this the

          first case of its kind, or was it one of many cases?

CIRONE: I really don't know. It could have been one of the

          first cases of that kind, see.  Because, you know,

          usually they don't, they didn't got through all that. 

          But being that we had, we had relatives here and, uh,

          and my two brothers, even though they were young, they

          might have been seventeen, eighteen years old when all

          this was going on.  You know, they, they, they kind of

          sort of made it their business to take care of it. 

          Because usually what they'd do, if they saw that, if

          they thought that you wasn't supposed to come into the

          United States for some reason or another, they would

          ship you back, see.  They done that to my grandfather,

          with my grandfather, because nobody came to visit him

          at, to pick him up at, at the, at the pier, see.  And

          he was all by himself.  They, they shipped him back,

          see.  Because he figures, well, this man can't make a

          living over here.  See, there had to be a guarantee

          that if you, get if you come into the United States

          that you, you could be making a living for yourself,

          that you wasn't going to be a burden to the country. 

          You follow me, what I'm trying to say?  And if, and if

          they thought that you couldn't make a, that they had

          nobody there and no way of making a living, they would

          ship you back.

PHILLIPS: Did your grandfather immigrate before your father?

CIRONE: Yes. Way before my father.

PHILLIPS: What year was that?

CIRONE: Oh, that was a long time ago. I really don't

          remember.

PHILLIPS: Roughly.

CIRONE: Roughly, uh, it could have been, uh, oh, 1920, let's

          see, 1919, something like that, around that time.

PHILLIPS: And just repeat again what year you immigrated, your

          father immigrated, the second time?

CIRONE: The second time? In, uh, April the 23rd, 1923.

PHILLIPS: Yeah. So, in fact, it wasn't way back, it was, your

          grandfather, now, tell me again the date your

          grandfather, roughly, came in, the year?

CIRONE: Around, around, around, around the year 1920.

PHILLIPS: 1920. And so, and after that, he was sent back to

          Italy?

CIRONE: Yeah. He, all he done is get off at Ellis Island and

          they shipped him right back on the next boat.

PHILLIPS: What did your father think about that? Did he ever

          talk about that with you?

CIRONE: Well, he was, he was kind of teed off. Oh, yeah. He

          was kind of mad because the people that were supposed

          to meet him at the airport, see . . .  At the pier, at

          the pier, I'm sorry, at the pier, see.  Supposed to

          meet him at the pier, they, they didn't show up.

PHILLIPS: So that was a pretty expensive trip.

CIRONE: Sure.

PHILLIPS: How much?

CIRONE: It cost him quite a bit.

PHILLIPS: Do you know how much?
CIRONE: No, not exactly. But, well, in those days, the train

          fare, boat fare wasn't too expensive, but it was

          expensive for, for those days, you know what I mean. 

          People probably worked maybe a full year before they

          could save up enough money to travel.

PHILLIPS: He must have been pretty angry with his relatives for

          not meeting him.

PHILLIPS: Oh, sure, sure. You can't blame him.

CIRONE: So now when you arrived you were very little. You

          were about five years old.

CIRONE: I was five, exactly five years. Five years and one

          month.

PHILLIPS: Do you remember arriving?

CIRONE: Oh, sure, sure. I remember, I, I faintly could

          remember just where we, where we stayed at Ellis

          Island and where I used to play, see.  Now, there was

          a big hall where we stayed, there was a big hall, see. 

          And, uh, and then there was, I think there were metal

          stairs, going up the stairs, see.  And the stairs was

          about, uh, I would say about six feet wide, maybe five

          feet wide, see.  And then there was a platform the

          same way, see, going upstairs.  And there, there was

          rooms up there, see, and we had one room.  It was my

          father, my mother, my sister Anna, my brother Frank,

          my sister Nancy, and me.  Now, there was three beds in

          there.  There was a bunk bed, see, where my sisters,

          two of my sisters slept downstairs, and me and my

          brother slept upstairs, and my father and mother had a

          bed of their own, see.  And I remember that much, see,

          but there was nothing closed or anything like that, it

          was just one big room that I think, they had us.  I'd

          say the room was about as big as this dining room, as

          big as this living room, maybe a little bigger, see. 

          I remember that much.  And then we used to play

          downstairs, see, in the hallway and, uh, they treated

          us very good.  Even my father, I used to hear my

          father say how nice they treated us.  Sometimes we

          used to play outside, see.

PHILLIPS: You could see Manhattan across the water.

CIRONE: Oh, yes, yes, yes. That was a beautiful sight. After

          we got out of there, then we lived in Brooklyn.

PHILLIPS: Tell me more about being there, though, because you

          were five years of age.  All of this time, this six

          month period your father was going through the court

          process, was that happening on Ellis Island, or did he

          have to leave the island to go to court?

CIRONE: No, he didn't leave the island.

PHILLIPS: He wasn't permitted to leave.
CIRONE: No. He wasn't permitted to leave.

PHILLIPS: So did the courts hear the case on Ellis Island?

CIRONE: No, no. It, it was in New York.

PHILLIPS: Did he have lawyers representing him?

CIRONE: He had lawyers representing him.

PHILLIPS: How did he get the lawyers?

CIRONE: Through, through our relations. See, in fact, in

          fact, he a, they got all the information from Chicago

          here, because here's where he became American citizen.

PHILLIPS: Originally, the first time.

CIRONE: Yes. yes. In 1906, see. And they got all the papers

          that was needed, that my father became an American

          citizen, see.  And they, they mailed them over to, to

          New York.

PHILLIPS: You went to school on Ellis Island.

CIRONE: Yes, I did.

PHILLIPS: Kindergarten, was it?

CIRONE: Kindergarten, yes.

PHILLIPS: Tell me about it.

CIRONE: ( he laughs ) There isn't much to tell about that,

          see.  It was mostly play.  That's all it was.  But you

          could see that, the newspaper clipping, see, that I

          was holding a little doll, and my sister, too.

PHILLIPS: Mr. Cirone has a newspaper clipping, a photograph of

          him taken in 1927?

CIRONE: In 1923.

PHILLIPS: 1923, that's right, 1923, with about a dozen other

          kids.  How many kids were in that kindergarten?  Do

          you remember?

CIRONE: No, not offhand, see. We were quite a few. There was

          quite a few kids in there.

PHILLIPS: All different . . .

CIRONE: I was never lonesome, see. I was playing with all

          kinds of kids over there.  There was even a little

          black kids in there, see.  I remember that much

          because, like, it struck me funny because I never saw

          a black person then.  That was the first time.  You

          see, I asked my mother, I says, "Ma, how come, how

          come," in Italian, I told her, I says, "How come that

          man, that little boy, is black?"  See, she says,

          "Well, he's from Africa."  ( he laughs )  Yeah.

PHILLIPS: How about language? You didn't speak English.

CIRONE: No. I didn't speak English. I spoke Sicilian,

          strictly Sicilian, see.  My father and mother, they

          spoke Italian, see.  But most of, most of the time

          they spoke Sicilian.  Every, every town had their own

          dialect, see.

PHILLIPS: What did you, how did you converse with the other

          children, who must have also come from different

          countries?

CIRONE: How does children converse with other children? Now,

          not too long ago my niece came over here from Italy. 

          She got along fine with all the little kids her age

          over here.  They conversed with each other.  It wasn't

          hard, see, it's simple.  Two kids, they could

          understand each other regardless what language they

          speak, see.  Am I right, see?

PHILLIPS: When, when did you leave Ellis Island, six months

          later?

CIRONE: Six months later. Yeah, I don't remember exactly the

          day.  But then we went to live with my father's cousin

          for about three months.  And then we moved to, in

          Brooklyn, and I can still remember the street.  Floyd,

          Floyd Street.  Floyd Street and Tompkins Avenue.  Then

          from there my father opened up a barber shop on Ellery

          Street, across the street from the School 168.  I

          went, I went to that school.

PHILLIPS: In Brooklyn.

CIRONE: In Brooklyn. I went to that school.

PHILLIPS: Tell us about life in Brooklyn.

CIRONE: Yeah. And then from there we moved to, uh, to

          Nostrand Avenue, see, right next to, about two doors

          away from the Lucky Strike factory.  I don't know if

          you're, if you're familiar with that, see.  And then

          from there we moved on Park Avenue and Tompkins

          Avenue, see.  And, like I said, my father had, I went

          to Saint, I went to Public School 54 when I was living

          on Nostrand Avenue.  See, then when we moved to Park

          Avenue and Tompkins Avenue, see, we lived right on the

          corner house.  And downstairs was a speakeasy. 

          ( he laughs )  And every once in a while they used to

          raid it.  I remember that much.  Of course, I was a

          little older then, too, you know, see.  And then I

          used to go to school, to Public School one fifty, 168. 

          And across the street was my father's barber shop,

          see.  And on Ellery Street there where my father had

          the barber shop, every, every, a certain time of the

          week, I don't remember if it was the weekend, I think

          it was the weekend, see, they used to have, they used

          to have carts there just like Maxwell Street, see, and

          the people used to sell their wares outside, see.  It

          was pretty interesting.

PHILLIPS: What did they sell? What kinds of things?

CIRONE: Oh, they used to sell clothes, they used to sell

          second hand stuff.  It was like a, like a marketplace.

PHILLIPS: Tell me where this was again?

CIRONE: On Ellery Street.

PHILLIPS: In Brooklyn.

CIRONE: In Brooklyn.

CIRONE: How old were you then?

CIRONE: I must have been about six, seven years old, see. I

          remember one time I had a teacher, he was a man

          teacher.  Oh, he was mean.  He used to hit everybody,

          all the kids, he used to hit.  In fact, somebody

          turned him in.  But, you know, one time, I used to go

          home for lunch, see, and Joe and I used to go back,

          back to school after lunch.  I used to play around,

          skip around here and there, look into windows and all

          that, and sometimes I used to get to school late.  So

          one day this teacher here, of course, I was late, kept

          me after school, and he laid me across the two

          benches.  And he was slapping me in the face.  And do

          you know, because I wouldn't cry, he kept slapping me

          in the face.  And I wouldn't cry, see.  But after he

          let me go I went home, I walked in the house, and my

          mother, my mother and my sister, my sister Anna, she

          was a teenager then, see, she saw the hand marks on my

          face and she asked me what happened, and I told her,

          see.  Then I started crying, see.  My sister Anna, she

          takes a butcher knife that big, see, she takes me by

          the hand and she takes me to the school, and the

          teacher was still there, and she takes that knife and

          puts it at that guy's throat, "If you touch my brother

          once more," I said, "I'll come and cut your throat

          off."  And man, that teacher never touched me again. 

          He never touched me again.  And I remember just like

          as if it happened today, see.  And if my oldest

          brother had knew about it, that guy, that guy would

          have been buried, buried, see.  My brothers, my

          brothers, my oldest brothers, none of them were fools. 

          We were, we were seven in the family, and we were that

          close.  Nobody could touch any one of us, see.  Like I

          says, my oldest brother, he was old enough to be my

          father.  And he was crazy about me.  Sure, he was in

          the army.  He was, he was in the front when I was

          born.

PHILLIPS: Where?

CIRONE: In, uh, in Italy, in Australia, in Austria, not

          Australia, in Austria, in Austria.  Yeah, and he came

          over and he says, "Where's that new baby?  Where's

          that new baby?"  ( he laughs )  He came on a leave.

PHILLIPS: Where is he now?

CIRONE: He's dead.

PHILLIPS: Did he come to America?

CIRONE: Yeah.

PHILLIPS: Your oldest brother, I mean.

CIRONE: Yeah. He came after we did. He came in about 1925,

          yeah.

PHILLIPS: Did the family stick together in America?

CIRONE: We were very close together.

PHILLIPS: You all came to Chicago?

CIRONE: Yes, always. We were always close together in

          Chicago.  My brother lived upstairs and downstairs. 

PHILLIPS: I'm just going to stop. ( break in tape )

CIRONE: See, yes, we were a very close family, see. Like,

          after we were all, when we were single, we all lived

          with my brother Anthony, see, because, you know, my

          father was, my father and my mother, they went back to

          Italy, see, and there's where they died.  So we stayed

          here, and we lived with my brother Anthony and my

          sister-in-law Ida.  She was like a mother, ( break in

          tape )  Okay, now, where was I?

PHILLIPS: Actually, what I'm going to do, I think, is turn the

          tape over at this point and we'll continue . . .  

                        END OF SIDE ONE

                     BEGINNING OF SIDE TWO

CIRONE: Clock stops ringing. ( clock chimes in background)

PHILLIPS: Okay. We're on side two with Mr. Cirone. It's

          interview number 377 [DP-4], continuing talking about

          your family all living together here in the United

          States.

CIRONE: Yeah. You see, after we came back here in 1923, see,

          in 1932 my father decides to go back.

PHILLIPS: That's the third time he's going back.

CIRONE: That's the third time, see. So he went back and he

          took my sister with him.  And then in 1933 my mother

          and my sister Anna and me, we went back, see, to

          Italy.  Because things were bad here, see.  So then

          and the war started to break out.  This is really

          good.  ( he laughs )  See, you know, then Hitler

          started to get to be pretty famous, you know, pretty

          powerful.  And Mussolini, too, see.  And, uh, before

          you know it, I was, being I was a teenager then, I was

          out in the streets, "Salude, Duce."  My father looked

          at me, he saw it, he said, "Hey, that's enough of

          that."  So he sent me back.  ( he laughs )  Not that I

          was a Fascist, or anything like that.  It was just the

          idea that you're a young person, you're hanging around

          with a lot of young kids that are your age and they're

          all fascists, you know what I mean.  So before you

          know it, you're in with them, see.  But things were

          bad there, over there.  Like one time a guy says to

          me, he points at his, uh, he point at his lapel, and

          he says to me, "When are you going to get a button

          like this?"  It's a Fascist button.  I said, "Hey,

          what am I going to do with a Fascist button?"  ( a dog

          barks in the background )  He says to me, "Shhh."  He

          says, "Do you know the walls got ears?"  See?  Even

          had to be afraid to say.  And I innocently, I was used

          to the United States here, you know, and I used to

          speak freely, see.  And they'd say, "Shh.  The walls

          got ears."  But, uh, that's the reason my father sent

          me back, and he wrote to my brother Anthony, he says,

          "Hey, I'm sending your brother back.  You're be,

          you're responsible for him."  And he really treated me

          like I was his own son.

PHILLIPS: This is your eldest brother?

CIRONE: My eldest brother Anthony. Not my oldest, but next to

          the oldest, my brother Anthony.  

PHILLIPS: How much older than you was he?

CIRONE: He was about, uh, say about sixteen years older than

          me, sixteen years older than me. 

PHILLIPS: So what was, tell us a little bit more about the

          atmosphere in Italy when you were, what were you,

          sixteen or seventeen?

CIRONE: Oh, it was beautiful out there.

PHILLIPS: Back in Italy.

CIRONE: It's beautiful. Yeah, the weather is beautiful,

          summer and winter.  People used to raise crops all

          year round.

PHILLIPS: How long did you spend back in Italy, you?

CIRONE: Two years.

PHILLIPS: Two years.

CIRONE: Yeah.

PHILLIPS: Did you go to school?

CIRONE: No.

PHILLIPS: Did you work?

CIRONE: No. I used to help my father out at the, at the, at

          the property, see, planting things, and stuff like

          that.  But it was beautiful over there, and I enjoyed

          every bit of it that I was there.  It was exciting. 

          It was very exciting, especially when Mussolini was in

          power, see.  Things were a little bit different there. 

          You know, like it was time for voting.  You don't dare

          get out of the house when its time for voting.  You

          stay in your house.  At that time, now, I'm talking

          about.  I don't know, today is different now.  Today

          is more, today they've got the freedom that everybody

          has here, see.  But at that time, when it was time for

          voting, a man does not leave his house, see.  Then

          when the time came, two Carbonaris would come, dressed

          up, you know, with their fancy hats and, see, one

          would get you by one side of the arm, the other one

          would get you with the other side of the arm, and

          they'd take you, and they'd tell you, "Now, you vote

          for this guy and put it in there," and you do that,

          see.  You didn't have no freedom of the way you wanted

          to vote.  Then when you were through voting and they

          came and got you, you were through voting, then you

          could, you was free to go to do what you wanted to do. 

          But you couldn't leave your house until they come and

          got you and got you to vote.

PHILLIPS: Did you see them do that?

CIRONE: Sure. That's the way it was with my father.

PHILLIPS: What did he think about that?

CIRONE: Well, he's used to the United States over here that he

          had the freedom that, uh, he wasn't used to it.  And

          my father was no Fascist.  He was against Fascists. 

          That's why he sent me over here, because he saw me out

          in the streets there with a bunch of kids, hey, you

          know, "Salude, Duce."  Marching out in the street, you

          know.  My father said, "Hey, this has gone too far. 

          This kids' going to get himself in trouble over here." 

          So he sent me back, see.

PHILLIPS: What did you, uh, miss about the United States when

          you were in Italy for that two-year period?

CIRONE: Do you know, that's the funny part of it. I lived

          here in the United States almost all my life, see. 

          And when I went back that time in 1933, I went back a

          hundred years, see.  Over here, the horse and buggy

          were just about disappearing.  I went over there, I

          had a, I had a donkey.  I used to ride my donkey all

          the time to go here and there, see.  And there was no

          facilities, no sanitary facilities, see.  No water, no

          plumbing in the house.  We had to go out to the street

          for water, see.  They had a running, a running

          fountain out in the street that people used to go

          there for water, see.  I went back a hundred year. 

          But you know what?  I didn't even pay attention. 

          Because it, I knew that that's the way I was supposed

          to live, and that's the way I lived.  I got used to it

          right away, see.  Then when I came back to America,

          then it was different.  I got used to this country

          again right away, see.  I came back, when I came back,

          in 1933 when I left, I left with the Rex.  That was

          one of the best boats in the Seven Seas.  And when I

          returned, I returned with the Rex.  From New York to

          Naples, it took us four days.  And there was no Queen

          Mary and no Queen Elizabeth that could ever beat that

          boat.  And you know what?  During the wartime that

          boat was at Naples, docked at Naples, and the English,

          they sunk it.

PHILLIPS: That was an Italian boat, was it?

CIRONE: That was an Italian boat. The Rex. Yeah, that was a

          beautiful boat.  That boat must have been two blocks

          long, and about a block wide, see.  It was like a city

          on water.  I was seventeen years old when I came back.

PHILLIPS: You must have had a good time on the boat.

CIRONE: Oh, yeah, yeah. I remember one time, I would,

          naturally you make friends.  There was people, like,

          my own age, see.  And there was a girl there, a

          beautiful girl.  She got on the boat in Gibraltar, she

          got on the boat.  The boat stopped in Gibraltar and

          picked up a few passengers.  And she was a beautiful

          girl, and she had a skirt up to here.  ( he gestures ) 

          I remember that, see.  And I was looking over there,

          see.  So she pulls her skirt down, and I says, "Yeah,

          I'll, see, see, no more."  Because she said, "Si, si." 

          She was talking, she was saying "si" in Spanish. 

          Yeah.  So I says, "Yeah, yeah, yeah. I see, see no

          more."  ( he laughs )  Another time, when I was going

          to Italy, this is really good, too, on the Rex, the

          waiters, they didn't speak English.  They just spoke

          Italian, see.  And we were at the mess hall, in the

          dining room, and he takes, they were serving with us. 

          And he was putting spaghetti in my dish.  And I says,

          "That's enough."  He smiled and he kept giving me

          more.  And I says to him, "I don't want no more."  And

          he kept putting more, he kept smiling and giving me

          more spaghetti.  So finally I got so mad I says, "I

          don't want no more basta."  "Oh, basta, basta."  Basta

          means that's enough too.  It means spaghetti.  You

          see, pasta means spaghetti and it also means that's

          enough.  Oh, and then he says, "Oh, basta, basta," so

          he stops giving me spaghetti.  ( he laughs )  

PHILLIPS: When you came back to America, you were still a young

          boy.  You were . . .  

CIRONE: I was seventeen.

PHILLIPS: Seventeen years of age.

CIRONE: Yeah.

PHILLIPS: And what was America like? The war hadn't yet

          affected America, had it?

CIRONE: No, no. I came back in 1935. See, I left in '33 and

          I came back in '35.

PHILLIPS: And by this time the Depression was easing, Roosevelt

          had certain plans, welfare and that kind of thing.

CIRONE: Yes, yes, that's right. There was a WPA, there was

          NRA and all that stuff there.  No, things were getting

          easier.  In fact, I, uh, you know what I used to do ,

          in case, when I couldn't find a job?  I used to go

          down to the market, I used to buy a couple of baskets

          of strawberries, a couple of boxes of strawberries,

          see.  I used to pay maybe thirty-five cents for a box

          of strawberries.  I'm talking about a good size box,

          maybe there was twenty-four, twenty-four quarts of,

          twenty-four quarts of strawberries.  You see, I used

          to buy maybe two or three boxes like that at thirty-

five cents a box, I used to go down in the alley and I

          used to sell them.  I'd sell them three boxes for a

          quarter.  "Hey, these strawberries, three boxes for a

          quarter."  Well, it's better than going around

          stealing, or something like that.  Cause of my

          brothers, they wouldn't let me do that, you know, see,

          if I didn't have enough money, they would all give me

          money, all my brothers.  But that wasn't the point. 

          The point is that I wanted it on my own, see.  And

          that's how I used to fool around.  Then finally I got

          myself a job, see, in the novelty shop.

PHILLIPS: In the what shop?

CIRONE: Novelty, where they used to make rings, and good luck

          pieces.

PHILLIPS: A novelty shop.

CIRONE: Yeah, ten dollars a week. Ten cents, I was making

          twenty-five cents an hour, see.  And that was enough

          for me.  That was plenty for me.

PHILLIPS: What about the Depression? What were your memories of

          the Depression here in Chicago?

CIRONE: Well, everybody was on relief, see. As far as I'm

          concerned, the president that we had during the

          Depression was Hoover.  I would say he was a good

          president.  He supported the whole nation.  And he, a

          lot of people would think that he was a bad president,

          because a lot of the banks closed and all that stuff,

          but that isn't so.  See, the Depression was coming

          when he came in, and there was nothing he could have

          done about it.  But, like I said, he supported the

          whole nation by giving them relief, clothes, shoes,

          see.  And, uh, not only that, until the day he died,

          he was advisor to all the presidents that were at the

          White House.  Am I right?  So he had to be a good

          president.

PHILLIPS: How about Roosevelt?
CIRONE: Roosevelt, he was all right. Sure, she was the, he

          was the war president.

PHILLIPS: Tell me about those war years in the United States.

          What was your experience?

CIRONE: Well, I was lucky. When I was supposed to go to war,

          the Japanese heard that I was coming, and they gave

          up, you know what I mean?  I was on two weeks leave of

          absence, that I was supposed to go in the army, see. 

          Then Truman sent out the atomic bomb and the Japs,

          they gave up, and they sent me a notice that I was

          rejoined.  So I didn't go into the army at all.

PHILLIPS: What did you think when you heard the atomic bomb had

          been dropped on Japan?

CIRONE: Well, I, I wasn't too keen about it, ( a clock chimes

          in the background ) for the simple reason that in fact

          I made a remark to myself.  I says, "I wonder if

          Truman would have thrown that there bomb if the

          Japanese had the same bomb that we had." I, it's, of

          course, it was a good thing, he saved a lot of

          Americans.  That's one thing that was good about it,

          but look what he did.  And, uh, I think that we could

          have done it a different way instead of, instead of

          throwing the bomb over there.

PHILLIPS: Was there much debate about that among your friends

          and colleagues at that time?

CIRONE: No. Nobody ever said a word about it. Nobody, well,

          there everybody was glad because the war was over

          because of that.

PHILLIPS: People, you think, perhaps didn't realize what a large

          historical event the dropping of the bomb was, or was

          it because they were just, didn't know what to say?

CIRONE: No, they, some were against it and some weren't, you

          know how that goes.  And a lot of people think that

          Truman was a very good president.  But, uh, my opinion

          was just a little bit different.  I always had it in

          my mind that he was a little bit of a Communist.  I

          don't know, I remember, though, that when he was at

          the White House there was quite a few Communists in

          the White House too, see.  And when he used to go for

          his daily walk, you heard about him going for his

          daily walk, newspaper, newspapermen used to go up to

          him and said, "Is it true that you have Communists at

          the White House?"  "No, sir."  And used to keep

          walking.  And I still think that he was, that he was,

          that he did have Communists at the White House.  They

          were our allies at that time, so why shouldn't he if

          he wanted to?

PHILLIPS: But there was a fear then, or a suspicion of the

          Soviet Union, of Russia, and Communism.

CIRONE: Yes. Yes, there was. There's always been. But look

          at one, all right, you know what Roosevelt used to

          call Stalin?  Bloody Joe, see.  Why would he call him

          Bloody Joe.  Then all of a sudden they were arm, arm

          in arm together.  From Bloody Joe, then they became

          the best of friends, the big three.  Roosevelt,

          Churchill and Stalin.

PHILLIPS: Until after the war.

CIRONE: Until after the war.

PHILLIPS: What about you after the war? What happened when, in

          fact, you were just about to be called up and then you

          weren't, what did you do next?

CIRONE: I went back to work, and I was laid off.

PHILLIPS: Where were you working then?

CIRONE: Teletype, AT&T.

PHILLIPS: When did you start working at AT&T?

CIRONE: Uh, 1943, until 1976. That's when I retired.

PHILLIPS: What did you start out as?

CIRONE: They started me out at seventy, seventy cents an hour

          plus bonus.  So I was doing pretty good.

PHILLIPS: What were you doing? What sort of work?
CIRONE: Machine shop, see. And the bonus was pretty good. I

          was making a pretty good living there.  And before

          that I was making forty-seven and on-half cents an

          hour in a different place, at Chicago Spring Hinge.

PHILLIPS: You became the machinist. Is that what happened?

CIRONE: Yeah, yeah, and I became a pretty good machinist. I

          could have been a tool and die maker.  I could have

          done anything, see.  I was, I didn't operate too long. 

          After two years I was there that they made me an

          instructor, they made me.  And I've been an instructor

          ever since, since I retired.

PHILLIPS: For most of your life you were . . .

CIRONE: Yes, I did hardly, very little work. When someone

          used to run into trouble, I used to go over there and

          fix the machine up in five minutes or ten minutes, and

          that was my job, see.  I had it very good.

PHILLIPS: And you worked for AT&T.

CIRONE: AT&T, yeah.

PHILLIPS: How did you like working for AT&T?

CIRONE: I loved it. They had, you know, I got sick one time,

          and I was sick for a long, long time, for a whole

          year.  Do you know that they paid me just like as if I

          was working, for a whole year?  And then when I went

          back to work they made me go to work for two hours a 

          day.  Then after that four hours a day, then six hours

          a day.  Then finally eight hours, see, when they

          thought I was well enough to work.

PHILLIPS: What year was this?

CIRONE: Oh, I would say that was about 1971, '72, like that.

          I was a good worker.

PHILLIPS: So what, any final comments, any other stories?

          Anything else you would like to share with us about

          your experiences, observations, about immigrating to

          the United States, or . . .  

CIRONE: Well, that's the best thing that ever happened to me,

          when I came back to the United States, see, before the

          war.

PHILLIPS: So you never, after that you never felt like going

          back to Italy again?

CIRONE: Oh, yes, oh, yes.

PHILLIPS: You did, you missed Italy.

CIRONE: Every other year I have my wife and I, we go and visit

          my sisters.  I got my two sisters over there yet. 

          See, my sister got married over there when she went

          back in 1932.  She got married, so naturally she

          stayed over there, see.  And my other sister stayed

          with her 'cause my father, and my father then they

          died, see.  And, uh, so every other year I'd go visit

          them.  I'd go with the excuse I have to go buy a

          couple pairs of shoes.  ( he laughs )  So every two

          years I go and visit my sisters, and I buy myself two

          pairs of shoes, a dress pair, and a pair for every

          day.  See, uh, they're not here.

PHILLIPS: So if, ever since you were a young man you're been

          back every two years.

CIRONE: Yes. Not since, since 1965, since 1965.

PHILLIPS: You started going back every two years.

CIRONE: Well, mostly after I retired. I started going back

          every two years.

PHILLIPS: So you married a woman who was also . . .

CIRONE: Yes.

PHILLIPS: Italian.

CIRONE: That's right. And that it happened to be that she's

          from, her parents are from the same home town as my

          parents.

PHILLIPS: And she was born in the United States.

CIRONE: But she was born in the United States. And you know

          what?  She looked like a Pollack.  ( he laughs )

          Instead of Italian.  ( he laughs )  Yeah, and it was

          kind of interesting.  I happened, as big as the United

          States is, I happened to go and find somebody that's

          from the same home town that I am.  And she loves to

          come with me.  Every two years we just pack up, and I

          just hope that I can go again this year, see.

PHILLIPS: Okay, I think, anything else you want to say?

CIRONE: Well, that's just about it, isn't it?

PHILLIPS: Okay.

CIRONE: Sure.

PHILLIPS: That wraps up our interview with Mr. Cirone, Vincent

          Cirone.  It's interview number 378 [DP-4].