Sir Roger Salusbury - Questions in the Salisbury tree

Started by Private User on Sunday, September 21, 2014
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Private User
9/21/2014 at 4:49 AM

Andrew Wilkinson has a question regarding Sir Roger Salusbury. Rewriting it below for public discussion:

How do I resolve an individual who appears to have two names? According to a profile managed by several people he is either Thomas or Roger Salusbury, and as such cannot be merged. I feel from looking around numerous documents that the more likely contender is Thomas, but don't wish to screw up the tree.

Also, Elizabeth Salusbury (grandaughter of the individual Roger/Thomas) has now acquired a 3rd husband, Sir Henry Johns, of whom I know nothing. He certainly doesn't appear in the Parliamentary documents about Owen Brereton as you can see from this link.

http://www.historyofparliamentonline.org/volume/1558-1603/member/br...

ctag: Terry Jackson (Switzer), Private User, Marsha Gail Veazey

There also seems to be a conflict on Sir Roger Salusbury, regarding if his father is Henry or Thomas.

9/21/2014 at 1:47 PM

It is a mess, isn't it? I do not see any reason to doubt that he is Sir Roger Salusbury, father of Sir John Salusbury MP. And, according to Burke's Extinct Baronetage (!841), Burke's Landed Gentry (1952) and Griffith's pedigrees his father is Thomas, married (secondly) to Elizabeth Puleston. But several of the children shown as his on Geni appear in fact to be his brothers and sisters, i.e. children of Thomas.

I'll spend an evening tomorrow trying to flesh out the tree around him. It then becomes much more obvious where the falsehoods lie.

His granddaughter Elizabeth does appear to have married a Sir Henry Jones (or Johns). But the Elizabeth who married Owen Brereton appears to be his great-granddaughter.

Sigh.....

To your original question on how you resolve an individual who appears to have two names, my answer would be "absolutely ruthlessly" as long as you are sure of your sources and you are not leaving debris behind. There are of course (lots of) instances where two different family pedigrees give confirm a marriage but give different names for the same people, and sometimes one simply has to leave "Anne or Mabel" [or whatever]. Equally, occasionally one comes across a family where two sons have both had the same name, both been knighted, and (probably) been conflated with each other by later genealogists so that where two marriages are shown on the genealogies they (probably) only had one wife each.

Mark

9/22/2014 at 6:24 AM

Hello Mark
Thanks for your interest and knowledge; you seem to have come across this sort of thing before. Some of the wrong entries may end up as being put there by myself, but I thought the Parliamentary source was reliable. There is also a tree concerning Roger Myddleton, whose family connects with this one in more than one instance, that purports to go back as far as 900 AD, but not only has many dates rounded up or down, but is mainly based on Welsh data (a language I have little knowledge of). This is the link for the Parliamentary record of Owen B,
http://www.historyofparliamentonline.org/volume/1558-1603/member/br...
and this is the records address for Denbighshire
https://www.denbighshire.gov.uk/en/resident/libraries-and-archives/...

There is also a Wikitree for the family at
http://www.wikitree.com/wiki/Brereton-416

I have read through these until my head spun but can find no obvious solution. I hope this is helpful.
Thanks again
Andrew.

9/22/2014 at 1:02 PM

I don't know why I thought it would take an evening; it may take a month. Apologies to any Welsh members of Geni, but these "Hens" and "Gochs" however valuable to single out one person from another, are really difficult and offputting for an English-speaker. Given the incurable English notion that the Welsh wear Wellington boots in order to make bestiality with sheep easier, one can scarcely avoid the suspicion that the "Hens" and possibly Gochs or Goats, also demonstrate "Portnoys Complaint" type preferences.

Ah well. I took on the challenge so I shouldn't complain. But I'm off to a more relaxing environment, for the moment.

Mark

photo owned by Tamara Tucker Swingle
Private User
9/23/2014 at 9:41 AM

Well, I see I'm the curator for the new or 3rd husband, but I honestly don't remember this profile at all. My memories of working on a Johns/Jones line was when I was trying to flesh out and build up the family of Orlando Jones of colonial Williamsburg, VA. It's a confusing line, and only gets more confusing the farther back you go.

I'll dig around and see if I can figure anything out.
Tammy

9/23/2014 at 10:58 AM

Hello Tammy
Welcome to the puzzle corner on which Mark seems to have made a good bit of progress. I wrote to Jeff Gentes because I was very confused by the twists and turns in this branch of the tree (mind you I'm easily confused), and especially the fact that so many of these folk share the same names, So little choice or imagination in those days! I hope I haven't started a nightmare for you all. It began when I tried to merge two trees and suddenly had conflicting data, and the appearance of Mr Johns/Jones just put the cherry on top. While I admit to being a novice, I'm a keen novice so if I can learn from this episode and the accuracy within my tree be improved at the same time that's a double bonus for me. Should we resolve all the issues can you explain/divulge your sources/methods. I ask the same of anyone helping out on this discussion because it can only lead to a better organised tree for us all.
Thanks again to all helpers
Andrew.

9/23/2014 at 2:46 PM

Dear Andrew,

Thanks for the compliment. Enough progress on these wretched Flintshire familes for one night. There seems to be an even greater degree of intermarriage between them than is usual even in English gentry marriages, probably because North Wales was (then as now) relatively underpopulated, so there were fewer eligible marriage candidates.

I frankly admit to plagiarisation, which is what almost all genealogists do anyway except for original research on ordinary (i.e. non-gentry) members of the family immediately above them. I am lucky in somehow having access to a site (stirnet.com) where someone has put in a lot of work on linking traditional pedigrees with each other; and (which is rare) indicating uncertainty or probability where it is not clear where the exact relationships coincide. (For example, on one pedigree you may have a wife who is the daughter of XX, of Y, when there may be two or more XXs of Y and she has been left off the pedigree of the Xs, This is sometimes easy to resolve, if you have reliable dates on both sides, but often you don't). I try, though probably not consistently, to put a note in the "About" Section when there are two possible candidates. Stirnet.com can be maddening unless you are prepared to pay (which I'm not); it normally cuts you off every five seconds so it takes ages to copy in data. Like any source, it can be wrong, and it often has lots of errors of omission; its main sources are heraldic visitations, Burke's Peerage, Burke's Commoners, etc etc, and regional published genealogists such as Dugdale (for Yorkshire): Vivian for Cornwall and Devon etc. You can find a lot of these in the Harleian Society publications. if you just look at random on the internet, you frequently get rubbish endlessly rpeated, and some sources, for example, for Americans, "Our Plantagenet Ancestry" should be actively distrusted for their identifications of American immigrants with the people allegedly born in England.

As for the Salusburys, a lot of their early pedigree seems to me to be dubious because I have not seen it matched against otherfamily pedigrees. There were two other North Welsh families, the Salisburys and the Salesburys, which lead to extra possibilities of confusion; the Salesburys seem to be an off-shoot of the Salisburys, and the Salusburys may be an offshoot of the Salisburys of Denbighshire - and the spelling differences seem to be quite deliberate, from an early time, to distinguish the families, rather than (as one would expect) random spelling differences when people frequently spelled their names in different ways.

My other main source for this lot and their relations is the "History of Parliament" biographies, available on-line for almost everything after 1509. Again, like any source, it is not infallible, usually with errors of omission rather than commission and with varying degrees of detail and reliabilty between the volumes published earliest and those published more recently. But even at its least best it gives the reality check that someone relatively recently has actively researched the details of someone's life, rather than simply copying someone else. For this level of English/Welsh society you usually get a confirmation of a genealogy for maybe around 10-20% of males in a family; plus clues to others - plus the occasional pleasure of finding a 70-year-old Member of Parliament who married a young woman as a last desperate attempt to have an heir, had a son, threw a wild christening-party, and everyone got so drunk that 16 people died in the fighting that broke out. So many of the dates in genealogy before the sixteenth century (and quite a lot afterwards) are guesses that no-one would have put in the son as being born 70 years after the father.

Rootsweb can be (but is not always) very helpful. Where a pedigree exists on rootsweb and matches with the other pedigrees, you sometimes get a lot of extra information. If it's sourced with dates and places (for example, date of will, date of inquisition post mortem, place of residence) you often have information that you don't get in the printed pedigrees. But even the most reliable Rootsweb pedigree is going to run into areas where one person has simply not been able to research everyone who has ever lived, and may repeat misinformation from other sources.

Geni is still pretty well in its infancy. There are huge missing areas, and always will be for most of the English and Welsh peasantry. Even in the gentry families there are lots of uncertainties which can only be resolved by balancing probabilities or loking at wills or inquisition post mortems (which most of us cannot do on-line) or other details of individuals' lives.

So sources are everything. You can spend your life researching someone (and possibly come up with very little) or spend ten minutes adding someone who connects with somebody else on Geni. If possible, add the source: but think about its reliablity in the other connections around it. I would almost never trust a source which only gives so-and-so as having a father XX and a mother XY, with grandparents ZX and AZ, and BY and CY. Even early medieval lines of Kings are sometimes pretty doubtful. There are (for example) five normally accepted lines of descent from Charlemagne, even though he had masses of children by multiple partners, and one of these lines looks to me like a guess which may be right or wrong. The Bosonid Kings of Upper and Lower Burgundy are linked by a woman whose dates and those of her children do not seem to match up; my guess is that it is actually two women who had the same name in roughly the same area at roughly the same time, and who were wrongly mismatched a couple of centuries later. (You or I might have been baptised as Boso, by the way since it was once a common name, if it was not for the twelfth-century theologian Abelard, who wrote theses in the form of alleged discussions between someone and a "Boso" in which Boso is always the idiot who is taking the wrong side, after which the name rapidly went out of fashion).

Mark

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