Lee Y-DNA Projects

Tagging:
Colonel Richard "the Immigrant" Lee
Captain William Lee, Esq.
John Lee of Johnston County, North Carolina

I will make myself perfectly clear about my standing and the science of Y-DNA and the bogus Y-DNA Projects that claim a Haplogroup for Col Richard Lee and LOV lines of descent:
First – to clear up the rumors and lies – I have never claimed a descendancy from William Lee who married Dorothy Taylor – the “Hanks” line – as this was my cousins and mentors William Lee line, Prof James H L Lawler, who gifted me his research to add to my own in 2005 – in my respect and love for him have always followed his wishes and promoted his research. I have never had “HARD FEELINGS” or gave up research in any way shape or form because of any Y-DNA project as I know the science and certainly do not need you to school me on DNA 101 as you just did. It is not necessary.

The TRUTH about Y-DNA:
Passed only male to male descendants
Y-DNA only establishes male Haplogroups
Y-DNA samples from 1st generation and sequential ascending generation can prove a genetic relationship – only IF there are adequate Y-DNA samples from each succession of generations involved

Example – let’s look at one Lee Y-DNA project that is faulty and has wrongly made false claims and assigned a Y-DNA Haplogroup to Col Richard Lee and the descending LOV lines –
Documented lineage - Generation 1 male Y-DNA sample from descendant of Gen R E Lee, next generation 2 male Y-DNA sample, generation 3 male Y-DNA sample, generation 4 Y-DNA sample, generation 5 Y-DNA sample from Gen RE Lee – all seem to indicate confirmation of relationships and documentation appears to confirm – now next generation 6 no Y-DNA sample, generation 7, no Y-DNA sample and generation 8 Col Richard Lee no Y-DNA sample.
The science and truth here is that Y-DNA cannot ‘magically’ fly through the air and attach itself to the non-sample Y-DNA males of generations 6, 7, 8 to Col Richard Lee.
SO even though there may be a confirmed Y-DNA Haplogroup relationship to generations 1 through 5 through the Y-DNA tests and documentation, it is SCIENTIFICALLY and GENETICALLY IMMPOSSIBLE to assign same Y-DNA Haplogroup or samples to anyone except the Y-DNA test subjects.
Occasionally there are generational mutations with Y-DNA.

Please - bear with me in regard to my example in the generations as I am just making a universal science based point as this would be applicable for any ancestral line in regards to non-tested male ancestors – any claim or assignment of a Y-DNA Haplogroup would be invalid – false, interpretation, opinion, assumptive.

That is the truth and science regardless of what ANYONE says.

And if anyone says differently and is making a profit off of these fake Y-DNA Projects with false statements, they are nothing but snake oil salesman IMO.

Now – with the advancement in DNA research
AU – multi generation relationship DNA regardless of gender and consistent in confirming genetic generational relationships up to the 8th generations regardless of degree between ‘cousin’ lines to keep it simple with use of triangulation.
MIT – female to female unchanged and can assign female Mt Haplogroups, passes female to male as in mother/son but not from son descending.
RNA – multi-generation regardless of gender, consistent and does not change.

That is the truth and science.
Anyone can read up on these fact
And anyone who says different have blatantly lied.

Period and that is all I have to say on that matter.

Thank you,
Jacqueli Finley

Cousin Jacqueli, all I see here are your two posts - one of which appears to be a riposte - a mystery...

Not a mystery - just trying to clear some wrongful information floating out there in Geni world. :)

“Colonel Richard Lee's ancestry has *absolutely nothing* to do with the awkward fact that (as of last count) five documented male lines of descent *from him* have been tested, they all match very closely, and there are a lot of other Lee lines - some of which can be traced back *farther* than his - that don't match.”

Absolutely absurd statement as I will explain again the science of Y-DNA –
Generation 1 male Y-DNA Haplogroup can only match generation 2, 3, 4 generational ascending ancestors ONLY if Y-DNA samples of male ascending ancestors have given Y-DNA sample ...

Since Y-DNA sample for Gen RE Lee had been obtained so with the paper trail documented to 5 generation ancestors pertaining to subsequent to the documented descending ancestors that have no sample of Y-DNA but Y-DNA Haplogroup is consistent to that same Generation 1 male Y-DNA sample can prove a genetic relationship …

But again – if there are NO Y-DNA SAMPLES for ancestors of Generations 5 Gen RE Lee ancestor males generation 6, 7, 8 to Col Richard Lee and beyond, there can be NO Y-DNA Haplogroup assigned to verify or match anyone as this is not how Y-DNA works … it cannot absolutely fly through time and attach itself to an ancestor UNLESS THERE IS A Y-DNA SAMPLE FROM THAT GENERATION ANCESTOR.

It is a ridiculous and outright mis-leading statement to indicate otherwise and what many are trying to lead the public to believe that this can be so.

It is scientifically and GENETICALLY IMPOSSIBLE.

“Colonial Virginia being the small place that it was, and endogamy being what usually happens in places with small gene pools, it would be surprising if there were *no* traces of relationship. But - as cannot be emphasized enough - autosomal matches may come from *any* ancestor, or more than one, and can (and often does) follow lines of mixed descent.” - MAVEN

That is such a misleading and false statement.

I have found Autosomal DNA quite accurate in confirming genetic relationship multi-generations up to generation 8 even without ascending DNA samples for upper generations.
I have help many find parental relationships and family members that they never knew, and without documentation- both maternal and paternal sides – using just generation 1 Autosomal DNA.

Anyone who has used AU DNA to confirm ancestral relationships - multi-generational – will agree I am sure – and with great accuracy.

Unlike Y-DNA which is full of inaccuracies because opinion, interpretation and mis-leading statements in Y-DNA studies have had confusing results.

Autosomal DNA in genealogy has been quite accurate and exact – to say otherwise is a lie.
Any of those who have found biological parents and family can vouch this fact.

As I said - I have had the pleasure to assist MANY in finding their parent(s), family that they never known - which has been a rewarding experience for me as it usually has brung such joy and closure to those who needed it the most.

I noticed that whole endogamy thing. I have alot of "kuduzu" cousins overlapping family members lol :-)

And it is a scientific fact that AUtosomal DNA does and and will never attach itself to individuals that do not share the same genertic DNA relationship(s) ...

Yeah I noticed too that many (or most) of the Lee lineages and LOV lines .. the ancestors related too in most arguments - have "lines of mixed descent" ... hummmm.

As you are aware cousin T-lo Tina Ann Cavitt ;)

As I said before:

The only PROBMATIC issue with Richardus Lee and Elizabeth Bendy being the true parents of Col Richard Lee Colonel Richard "the Immigrant" Lee is that admission that this is the true lineage of Col Richard Lee would nullify all the Y-DNA Project and Y-DNA studies that have disclaimed many Lee of Virginia descendants -WRONGFULLY - and everyone should also note that prior to Thorndales bogus of attaching John Leyes and Jane Hancock with fake sources - it was acceptable by the Lee Society and Edmund Jennings Lee - see specifically in his book 'Lee of Virginia' that indeed Richardus Lee and Elizabeth Bendy were his parents and he WAS a decendant of the Lees of Shropshire. Regardless of the argument contrary - I have 2 copies here and EJ Lee was very much in favor of Col Richard Lee being a descendnt of the SHropshire Coton Hall Lees - and that family is well documented - contrary to the argument - and it kind of narrows it down to Richardus, as it wasn't the other bros /sons of John Lee of Coton Hall.

There are direct descendant males of the UK Lees that more than match the USA Lee decendants today - as well as the other ancestral and descending surnames associated with our LOV lines.
Anyway - Y-DNA cannot attach itself to non-Y-DNA tested ascending generations and individuals and cannot fly magically through time and attach itself to non-tested male ancestors as others have suggested - so scientifically a Y-DNA Haplogroup cannot be assigned to any of these non-Y-DNA tested ascending ancestors either - to claim such is false and impossible,

That is not just my opinion but fact, truth and science.

Yes - I am finding as many of us are Autosomal DNA accurate and very useful in genealogy - especially with the documented Lee LOV lines that have been told they are not related to Col Richard Lee and Anne Constable. :)

There are hundreds if not thousands of us Lee cousins that can confirm this - regardless of others opinions about us.

And I am proud of all of my 'mixed-line' ancestors and cousins. I think the more the merrier. :)

Richard Lee of Coton Hall
Colonel Richard "the Immigrant" Lee

Tagging profiles:
Richard Lee of Coton Hall
Colonel Richard "the Immigrant" Lee

For the research associated to them:
https://leesofvirginia.org/Col_Richard_Lee.html

As it seems to have been removed from these profiles as it is my original research and on history timestamp my contributions and credits have been removed. The current contents shows another version of my research - rewritten without any reference to my hard work.

and DNA references:
https://leesofvirginia.org/Lee_DNA_Project_Page.html

Any complaint about self-promoting - I think it prudent to promote the research as it is relevant and I did the research. And it pertains to the topics. It only is fair and right as I cannot change that I did the work.

Thank you.

https://www.geni.com/discussions/193270?authenticity_token=XZoVQC5P...

Discussion on my argument for Ricardus Lee of Coton as parent of Col Richard Lee as presented on Geni to confirm it as my contribution:

Richard Lee of Coton Hall

Thank you,
Jacqueli Finley

From discussion in argument to Col Lee's Parentage:
https://www.geni.com/discussions/235584?msg=1494890

Maven -
"Dear Jacqueli: The evidence that the birth record from Shrewsbury St. Chad's does NOT pertain to the Coton Hall family can be found on the very image you waved around as "proof" that it *does*.

Take a good close look at the word following the father Richard Lee's name. Does it say "Gent."? It does not. It says "Sharman". I looked it up, and it's an obsolete occupational term for a worker-in-cloth, and some definitions added the velvet-cutting detail.

So I went digging deeper into the Shrewsbury St. Chad's parish records. What I found, I posted.

I have done nothing else except tattle."

SO - in response I took the liberty of adding primary sources - and a close-up of 1617 baptismal record in question:

It clearly states: RICHARD LEE FATHER OF SON RICHARD LEE - there is no "Sharman" after his father.

Furthermore: Here are the Parish Record Transcripts
Richardus Lee; Present at baptism of Richard Lee:; County Shropshire; Register type Composite; Register date range 1616-1638; Archive reference P253/A/1/1; Page 2; Record set Shropshire Baptisms; Category Birth, Marriage & Death (Parish Registers); Subcategory Parish Baptisms; Collections from United Kingdom, England; (source image attached)

and

Richard (Richardus) Lee listed as present (Father) at baptism of Col. Richard Lee; County Shropshire Register type Composite Register date range 1616-1638 Archive reference P253/A/1/1 Page 2 Record set Shropshire Baptisms Category Birth, Marriage & Death (Parish Registers) Subcategory Parish Baptisms Collections from United Kingdom, England Note:source image attached - Primary Source:; First name(s) Richard; Last name Lee; Birth year -; Baptism year 1617; Baptism date 15 May 1617; Denomination Anglican; Place Shrewsbury, St Chad's; Father's first name(s) Richard; Mother's first name(s) -; Mother's last name -; Residence -; County Shropshire; Register type Composite; Register date range 1616-1638; Archive reference P253/A/1/1; Page 2; Record set Shropshire Baptisms; Category Birth, Marriage & Death (Parish Registers); Subcategory Parish Baptisms; Collections from United Kingdom, England

Now after the wording "son Richard Lee" there is writing - not "Sharman" unless you are suggesting that Col Richard Lee was born with shears in hand.

Nice try.
I also added these primary and secondary sources pertaining to the situation:

https://www.geni.com/documents/followed_by/6000000001210330059

I noted that my sources and research no longer give me credit on Geni and Wikitree profiles even though I was the initial contributor, so I thought prudent to upload the documents and sources directly so all can review and make up their minds for themselves - that is the best and fairest way. IMHO,
Jacqueli

More DNA facts:
Basically -
Y-DNA has been overrated, overstated, and oversold.
What Y-DNA can do is establish Y-DNA Male Haplogroups …
But these Haplogroups can share and do consists of many (hundreds) or various surnames. You can search this but here is one explanation: https://dnaandfamilytreeresearch.blogspot.com/2016/05/y-dna-matches...
https://www.liquisearch.com/haplogroup_r1b_y-dna/r1b_r-m343/r1b1a_r...
And the limitations: https://www.geni.com/projects/Y-DNA-haplogroups/3717
Why is there so little information about my assigned Y-haplogroup?
In part due to exaggerated or outright fraudulent claims by some DNA testing companies, people may have an inflated expectation that DNA testing will tell them the specific ancient tribes or cultures their ancestors belonged to. The reality is rarely that simple. Having spent the effort and money on testing to learn your Y-haplogroup assignment, you may do an Internet search and discover that very little information seems to exist about it. What is going on?

Here are four considerations that will help provide a useful perspective and improve your research: (1) the study of ancient Y-DNA is only recently expanding, (2) you are member of all the ancestral haplogroups of your lineage, (3) much more is known about older Y-haplogroups than newer ones, and (4) because of human migration and admixture, a Y-haplogroup is rarely found in just one ancient society or culture except shortly after its formation.

Ancient DNA. A great deal of the speculation about ancient "tribal" Y-haplogroups that you'll find in online discussions has used evidence from Y-DNA testing of living people to make inferences about the presence and migrations of ancient peoples. Although this approach generates some intriguing hints, it is not a substitute for actual ancient DNA, and discussions with weak supporting data too easily turn into arguments over whose speculation is more believable for all the wrong reasons.

Relatively few ancient Y-DNA samples have been collected so far— less than 200 as of January 2017—and mostly they've just provided crude data focusing on the oldest Y-haplogroups. Until very recently, intact ancient Y-DNA was rarely collected successfully. In contrast, ancient mitochondrial DNA (mtDNA) is much easier to collect, so genetic anthropologists have been able to get more reliable information about mtDNA, and generally focused on mtDNA preferentially. However, technical innovations have changed this in the last couple of years, and we can expect much more reliable data about ancient Y-DNA haplogroups to appear in scientific research papers.

Ancient Haplogroup Membership. Be aware that you are not just a member of your assigned Y-haplogroup. Your assigned Y-haplogroup is the known Y-haplogroup that matches your test results, and that has formed most recently in your Y-phylogenetic tree lineage. But you are also a member of every Y-haplogroup ancestral to your assigned haplogroup. To learn as much as you can about your patrilineal anthropology, you need to research your assigned Y-haplogroup to learn what Y-haplogroups are ancestral to it, and then explore what is known about each of them too.

Ancient Haplogroup Knowledge. Much more is known about the older Y-haplogroups in your lineage than the newer ones. This is partly because haplogroups that formed long ago have had more time to expand and develop a larger descendant population today, and also because ancient DNA samples have mostly provided information about the older Y-haplogroups. As you work backward in your Y-haplogroup lineage, you will find more research has been done and more information is available.

Migration and Admixture. When a new Y-haplogroup is formed, it's represented by one person in whom a new mutation is found, who is living in a particular location and society. But to still exist today, the Y-haplogroup will probably have expanded to become represented by a considerable population. Some of those people migrated, and some joined and had descendants in societies and cultures other than the one they were born into. This appears to be a significant aspect of human nature, then and now.

It's important to know that by the beginning of the Bronze Age (roughly 5,500 years ago) and afterward, there was so much migration in Europe and western Asia that most cultures in that area will have included several different major Y-haplogroups. Although less well studied, the same may be true for other human populations worldwide. In this case, within a few dozen generations after any Y-haplogroup was formed, there would be only few ancient Y-hapogroups limited to only one location or culture. At best we can say "Of the ancient DNA samples that have been tested from various cultures, these are the cultures that included this particular Y-haplogroup of interest." We will be able to say more when we have data from thousands of ancient DNA samples.

Genetic Anthropology Resources
The resources below and in the section "How Can I Learn More or Get Help?" all offer paths for fruitful exploration, both for information and contact with others on a journey similar to yours. The Y-DNA discussion forums especially are full of anthropology discussions, and they are well-populated by professional and skilled amateur genetic anthropologists (and also some people with odd personal agendas they promote!).

Y-DNA and Autosomal DNA testing for paternity –
If a male potential parent of a child, or male family member of potential male parent, does not submit a Y-DNA test for paternal confirmation it would not be able to validate the parent/child connection or paternity.
With Autosomal the potential father/mother/parent does not need to submit DNA samples if there are relative family members who have submitted AU DNA, as well as child, and with sufficient cousin relationships and triangulation the paternity can be narrowed down to immediate family members outside of the parents for high probabilities and confirmation.
The more individuals who test their AU DNA and as this data base grows the higher the changes of confirming parentage of course, but for a child with parents in question, AU DNA from cousin lines will indicate the genetic trail as it is not as limited as Y-DNA.
“Additionally, Y-DNA testing is helpful when trying to narrow down genetic matches on a specific paternal line. While autosomal (atDNA) provides matches who share on any of the other 22 pairs of chromosomes, Y-DNA cousin matches will only share on the Y chromosome.”
https://www.genealogyexplained.com/dna-testing/y-dna-test/#:~:text=....

As for me - I am not a genetic specialist or DNA expert, although I learned the basics from one, I just want to help clear up the confusion and misrepresentations of what Y-DNA and Autosomal DNA can and cannot do. In my opinion one has been over-rated (Y-DNA) and one under-rated (Autosomal) so I am only trying to clarify in the simplilest "layman' terms to help things along.

I am not perfect - I make mistakes and if proven wrong make admission, adjustments, apoligies, then move on ...

I AM a genealogist though, one who loves history and wishes to preserve it for all generation - today's and tomorrow's - regardless of race, color, creed, religion, politics, or surname ...
so I fight hard for what is true and correct.

Thank you for the patience with me in advance.
Jacqueli

I have listed myself and other Lee family members from various LOV lines on my webpage along with associated GEDMatch Kit Numbers from DNA Test taken by these individuals and myself for Public viewing as the Public can use GEDMatch and the tools available to compare Kits, run DNA Reports: matching, propagating, triangulation, generational, GEDCOM comparison, X chromsome, etc.: https://leesofvirginia.org/Lee_DNA_Project_Page.html

GEDMatch: https://www.gedmatch.com/
https://www.gedmatch.com/registration

https://www.geni.com/documents/view?doc_id=6000000177602594926&...

a195205 Tina A Cavitt
mom Judy Carol lee A795406
Robert Harold Lee rb1272813
Be cool to do a ancestry project for the Lee's of Virginia on gedmatch
https://classic.gedmatch.com/AP/ap_group_listAPI1.php