Gui II, comte de Tonnerre

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GUY de Tonnerre ([935/60]-). His parentage is confirmed by the charter dated 29 Sep 1046 in which Milon [V] Comte de Tonnerre names some of his paternal ancestors “Milo atavus meus…Wuydo proavus meus…Milo pater meus…” (see further details below)[29]. The difficulty with this is the absence of "abavus" and “avus” from the series of ancestors. Bouchard suggests that the charter should be interpreted as indicating that Guy was the son of Milon [II][30]. This is probably correct, as shown by the following assessment of the chronology of the family. It is assumed that Milon [II] is identified as the “atavus” because of his mention in the document as founder of the monastery. It is likely that Milon [II] died during the 980s, as shown above, which would place his birth within the wide range of [910/40]. If this is correct, and if the birth date range of Milon [V] is correctly estimated as shown below, Milon [V] would most likely have been in the fourth succeeding generation, and therefore the great-grandson of Milon [II]. The chronology therefore indicates that neither “atavus” nor “proavus” should be interpreted in this document with their traditional meanings of great-great-great grandfather and great grandfather. m ---. The name of Guy's wife is not known. Guy & his wife had one child:

a) MILON [III] ([965/80]-). His parentage is confirmed by the charter dated 29 Sep 1046 in which Milon [V] Comte de Tonnerre names some of his paternal ancestors “Milo atavus meus…Wuydo proavus meus…Milo pater meus…” (see further details below)[31]. As explained above under Milon [III]’s father Guy, the chronology of this family does not favour the interpretation of "proavus" in this document in any other way than "grandfather", despite this not being strictly correct from the point of view of language. If this is correct, Guy was the father of Milon [III]. m ---. The name of Milon’s wife is not known. Milon [III] & his wife had two children:

i) MILON [V] de Tonnerre ([995/1005]-[before/after 29 Sep 1046]). His parentage is confirmed by the charter dated 29 Sep 1046 in which Milon [V] Comte de Tonnerre names some of his paternal ancestors “Milo atavus meus…Wuydo proavus meus…Milo pater meus…” (see further details below)[32]. His birth date range is estimated on the assumption that the birth date range estimated for his son Guy is correct as suggested below. Comte de Tonnerre. - Curator's Note: He is probably the same person as MILON IV (below)

ii) GUY de Tonnerre (-before 29 Sep 1046). “Milo comes castri Tornodori” donated property to Saint-Michel de Tonnerre, for the souls of “Milo atavus meus” (founder of the monastery) “Wuydo proavus meus…Milo pater meus…Wuydo frater meus…et Wuydo filius meus”, by charter dated 29 Sep 1046[33].

MILON [IV] de Tonnerre ([950/65]-1002 or after). The parentage of Milon [IV] is not known. There are three possibilities. Firstly, he could have been the same person as Milon [III] shown above as father of Milon [V]. This is not an ideal fit. Milon [IV] does not name Milon and Guy among his “carissimorum filiorum” in his charter dated to [992/1005] (see below)[45]. The addition of “carissimorum” suggests that the three sons named in the document were his only children, as it is difficult to imagine how he could have had other children whom he did not consider “carissimorum”. One possibility is that Milon [V] and Guy would have been born after the date of the charter. However, the document strongly suggests that it was written with the donor’s death in mind as he requests that his own and his wife’s anniversaries be remembered, although it is of course not impossible that he recovered from the illness from which he was suffering and had more children. Secondly, Milon [IV] could have been an older son of Milon [II] who succeeded his father in the county. The birth date ranges for Milon [IV] and for Guy, known son of Milon [II], allow for this possibility. Thirdly, he could have been the son of an otherwise unknown older son of Milon [II] who succeeded his paternal grandfather in the county. The birth date ranges are not incompatible with this possibility either, assuming that Milon [II]’s son Guy was born early in the date range shown for him above, while Milon [IV] was born late in his birth date range. As can be seen, no factor points conclusively to one of these possibilities being correct. It is preferable therefore to avoid further speculation and show his parentage as unknown, although it should be emphasised that the suggested birth date ranges assigned to the various members of this family are speculative and that the conclusions could be different if they were incorrect. Comte de Tonnerre. "Milo comes, Lambertus, Richardus, Albericus, Archanradus, Calo, Girvardus, Raynardus comes, Erembertus, Ormundus, Widricus, Milo, Achardus, Odo, Raynardus" witnessed the charter dated to [992] under which “Umbertus…et mee conjugis…Giberge” donated property "in villa…Curtis-Secreta…in comitatu Tornodorense" to Saint-Michel de Tonnerre[46]. "…Raynardi comitis…Milonis comitis, Aremberti…" subscribed a charter dated to [997] which deals with the property at Coussegré[47]. “Milo comes Tornodorensis castri” donated property "in villa…Curtis-Secreta" to the monastery of Saint-Michel, with the consent of “coniugis mee Ermengarde et carissimorum filiorum meorum Achardi, Rainardi et Alberici”, by charter dated to [992/1005][48]. The charter appears to have been written with his own death in mind as he requests the anniversaries of his own and his wife’s deaths to be remembered. m ERMENGARDE, daughter of --- (-after 1018). Ernest Petit suggests that she was Ermengarde, daughter and heiress of Rainard Comte [de Bar-sur-Seine] & his wife ---, , in order to explain how her granddaughter by Comte Milon, Eustachia, transmitted this county to her husband Gauthier de Brienne[49]. A family connection is indicated by the charter dated to [992/1005] uner which “Milo comes Tornodorensis castri” donated property "in villa…Curtis-Secreta" to the monastery of Saint-Michel, with the consent of “coniugis mee Ermengarde et carissimorum filiorum meorum Achardi, Rainardi et Alberici”[50], the property being the same as the subject of the [992] charter witnessed by "…Raynardus comes…"[51]. According to Ernest Petit[52], Ermengardis married secondly Héribert [IV] Comte de Vermandois. The author highlights a charter of Ermengarde Ctss de Vermandois witnessed by Rainard Comte de Tonnerre. He suggests that Rainard would only have done this if he were the son of Ermengarde, although other explanations must be possible. Settipani points out[53] that Ermengardis is named as the wife of Héribert in a document of her father-in-law Albert I Comte de Vermandois, relating to the abbey of Homblières, dated some time between 982 and the death of Comte Albert (in 987). If the two marriages apply to the same Ermengarde, Comte Héribert must therefore have been her first husband and Comte Milon her second. However, it is not clear that this suggested co-identity is correct, a simpler explanation being that there were two different individuals named Ermengarde. "Raynardus comes Tornodorensis pagi et mater mea Ermengardis comitissa" donated "alodum nostrum…Cappam" to Saint-Michel by charter dated 1002, signed by "Odonis vicecomitis…"[54]. Count Milon [IV] & his wife had four children:

a) ACHARD de Tonnerre . “Milo comes Tornodorensis castri” donated property to the monastery of Saint-Michel, with the consent of “coniugis mee Ermengarde et…filiorum meorum Achardi, Rainardi et Alberici”, by charter dated to [992/1005][55]. "Milo comes… Achardus, Odo, Raynardus" witnessed the charter dated to [992] under which “Umbertus…et mee conjugis…Giberge” donated property "in villa…Curtis-Secreta…in comitatu Tornodorense" to Saint-Michel de Tonnerre[56]. It is possible that the last three names in the list refer to the children of Milon [IV] Comte de Tonnerre. [A monk in 1018.]

b) [EUDES de Tonnerre . "Milo comes… Achardus, Odo, Raynardus" witnessed the charter dated to [992] under which “Umbertus…et mee conjugis…Giberge” donated property "in villa…Curtis-Secreta…in comitatu Tornodorense" to Saint-Michel de Tonnerre[57]. It is possible that the last three names in the list refer to the children of Milon [IV] Comte de Tonnerre.

c) RAINARD de Tonnerre ([980/90]-after 16 Jul 1039). “Milo comes Tornodorensis castri” donated property to the monastery of Saint-Michel, with the consent of “coniugis mee Ermengarde et…filiorum meorum Achardi, Rainardi et Alberici”, by charter dated to [992/1005][58]. "Milo comes… Achardus, Odo, Raynardus" witnessed the charter dated to [992] under which “Umbertus…et mee conjugis…Giberge” donated property "in villa…Curtis-Secreta…in comitatu Tornodorense" to Saint-Michel de Tonnerre[59]. It is possible that the last three names in the list refer to the children of Milon [IV] Comte de Tonnerre. Comte de Tonnerre. "Raynardus comes Tornodorensis pagi et mater mea Ermengardis comitissa" donated "alodum nostrum…Cappam" to Saint-Michel by charter dated 1002, signed by "Odonis vicecomitis…"[60]. "Leotgarda comitissa…ac filii mei Rogerii" donated "terram…in villa…Jassant" to Saint-Michel by charter dated to [1005], signed by "Rogerius comes, Richardus, Rainardus comes, Alberic, Erembertus vicecomes, Milo…"[61]. “Rainaldus comes” donated property to the monastery of Saint-Michel, for the soul of “filii mei Othonis” buried in the monastery and “uxore mea Herviz…filio nostro Arduyno ac filia Ermengarda”, by charter dated Jul 1036, subscribed by “…Raynaldi comitis, Willelmi comitis filius eius”[62]. “Raynardus comes” donated property to the monastery of Saint-Michel (on his deathbed), with the consent of “uxoris mee Herviz et filii mei Harduini sive filie mee Ermengarde”, by charter dated 16 Jul 1039 which also names “mater mea Ermengardis”[63]. m (after 1002) HELVIS, daughter of --- (-after 16 Jul 1039). “Rainaldus comes” donated property to the monastery of Saint-Michel, for the soul of “filii mei Othonis” buried in the monastery and “uxore mea Herviz…filio nostro Arduyno ac filia Ermengarda”, by charter dated Jul 1036[64]. “Raynardus comes” donated property to the monastery of Saint-Michel (on his deathbed), with the consent of “uxoris mee Herviz et filii mei Harduini sive filie mee Ermengarde”, by charter dated 16 Jul 1039 which also names “mater mea Ermengardis”[65]. Rainard & his wife had three children...

d) AUBRY de Tonnerre . “Milo comes Tornodorensis castri” donated property to the monastery of Saint-Michel, with the consent of “coniugis mee Ermengarde et…filiorum meorum Achardi, Rainardi et Alberici”, by charter dated to [992/1005][75]. "Leotgarda comitissa…ac filii mei Rogerii" donated "terram…in villa…Jassant" to Saint-Michel by charter dated to [1005], signed by "Rogerius comes, Richardus, Rainardus comes, Alberic, Erembertus vicecomes, Milo…"[76]. 992-1002/before 1016.