Marguerite “the elder sister” de Clermont, dame de Luzarches

-https://fmg.ac/Projects/MedLands/parclerdam.htm#MargueriteClermontM...

1. MARGUERITE de Clermont ([1104/05]-after 1145). [%E2%80%9CRadulfus Oysardi filius” donated property at Creil to Saint-Leu d’Esserent, and the nuns obtained the consent of "comitem Rainaldum Claromontensem…uxor eius Clementia, filia…ipsius Margarita", by charter dated to [1119][89]. The dating of this document is problematic: while the presence of Marguerite suggests that she was still unmarried, the date is inconsistent with the estimated birth date of Clémence. It should be noted that Mathon dates the consent given by Comte Renaud to [1153], although he does not state why he says this[90]. If that dating is correct, the witness would have been Renaud’s daughter Marguerite by his second marriage, although it is unclear why she would have been singled out for giving consent without her brothers and sisters.] The Vita Karoli Comitis Flandriæ names "nobilem puellam Margaretam, Reinaldi comitis Clarmontensis filiam" as wife of Count Charles, specifying that the marriage took place before his accession[91]. The De Genere Comitum Flandrensium, Notæ Parisienses refers to (but does not name) the daughter of "comes de Claromonte" and his wife Adela, specifying that she married firstly Charles Count of Flanders, secondly "Hugo Champdaveine…comes Sancti Pauli" by whom she had "Radulfus Champdaveine et Guod Champdaveine", and thirdly "dominus Balduinus de Encra" by whom she had "domini Galteri de Helli"[92]. The Genealogiæ Scriptoris Fusniacensis refers to, but does not name, the daughter of "comes Rainaldus [de Claromonte]" & his wife Adelaide as wife of "comes Karolus Flandre"[93]. It is assumed that Marguerite was born soon after her parents' marriage as her mother was already nearly 40 years old at the time.

m firstly (before Jul 1119) CARL of Denmark, son of KNUD II "den Hellige/the Holy" King of Denmark & his wife Adela de Flandre ([1084]-murdered Bruges 2 Mar 1127, bur Bruges, St Donatien, later Saint-Sauveur). He succeeded in 1119 as CHARLES "the Good" Count of Flanders.

m secondly ([1128]%29 as his second wife, HUGUES [III] “Candavène” Comte de Saint-Pol, son of HUGUES [II] Comte de Saint-Pol & his wife Helissende de Ponthieu (-after 1145).

m thirdly BAUDOUIN d’Encre, son of ---.

  /!\ PLZ attention NOT her namesake younger sister: 

5. MARGUERITE de Clermont (-29 Oct [1187]). .. ... ...
m ([1 Aug 1154/26 Mar 1155]) GUY [III] de Senlis Seigneur de Chantilly et d'Ermenonville ..

Charles Cawley in the Medieval Lands Database maintains two separate daughters of Renaud distinct, by two separate mothers.

The first Marguerite de Clermont

Comte Renaud & his first wife, Adelais de Vermandois, had:

1. MARGUERITE de Clermont ([1104/05]-after 1145). [%E2%80%9CRadulfus Oysardi filius” donated property at Creil to Saint-Leu d’Esserent, and the nuns obtained the consent of "comitem Rainaldum Claromontensem…uxor eius Clementia, filia…ipsius Margarita", by charter dated to [1119][89]. The dating of this document is problematic: while the presence of Marguerite suggests that she was still unmarried, the date is inconsistent with the estimated birth date of Clémence. It should be noted that Mathon dates the consent given by Comte Renaud to [1153], although he does not state why he says this[90]. If that dating is correct, the witness would have been Renaud’s daughter Marguerite by his second marriage, although it is unclear why she would have been singled out for giving consent without her brothers and sisters.] The Vita Karoli Comitis Flandriæ names "nobilem puellam Margaretam, Reinaldi comitis Clarmontensis filiam" as wife of Count Charles, specifying that the marriage took place before his accession[91]. The De Genere Comitum Flandrensium, Notæ Parisienses refers to (but does not name) the daughter of "comes de Claromonte" and his wife Adela, specifying that she married firstly Charles Count of Flanders, secondly "Hugo Champdaveine…comes Sancti Pauli" by whom she had "Radulfus Champdaveine et Guod Champdaveine", and thirdly "dominus Balduinus de Encra" by whom she had "domini Galteri de Helli"[92]. The Genealogiæ Scriptoris Fusniacensis refers to, but does not name, the daughter of "comes Rainaldus [de Claromonte]" & his wife Adelaide as wife of "comes Karolus Flandre"[93]. It is assumed that Marguerite was born soon after her parents' marriage as her mother was already nearly 40 years old at the time. m firstly (before Jul 1119) CARL of Denmark, son of KNUD II "den Hellige/the Holy" King of Denmark & his wife Adela de Flandre ([1084]-murdered Bruges 2 Mar 1127, bur Bruges, St Donatien, later Saint-Sauveur). He succeeded in 1119 as CHARLES "the Good" Count of Flanders. m secondly ([1128]%29 as his second wife, HUGUES [III] “Candavène” Comte de Saint-Pol, son of HUGUES [II] Comte de Saint-Pol & his wife Helissende de Ponthieu (-after 1145). m thirdly BAUDOUIN d’Encre, son of ---

with Comte Hugues [III] she had [five] children:

1. ENGUERRAND de Saint-Pol "Candavène" (-1170 or after). "Hugo Candavene" founded the abbey of Cercamp, with the consent of "filii eius Engelrandus et Hugo, Anselmus, Radulfus et Wido", by charter dated 1137[1065]. According to Europäische Stammtafeln, Enguerrand, Hugues, Anselme, Raoul and Guy were the sons of Comte Hugues [III] by his first unnamed wife[1066]. In the case of Raoul and Guy, the De Genere Comitum Flandrensium, Notæ Parisienses states that they were born from their father’s marriage to Marguerite de Clermont (see below). In the case of Enguerrand, Hugues and Anselme, the question is open to debate. As noted above, the charter dated 1145 suggests that the sisters Aigeline and Adelais was not full sisters of Enguerrand and Anselme. This could either be because they were born from different marriages of their mother (in that case, the first wife of Comte Hugues) or different marriages of their father (in which case, Enguerrand and Anselme would have been born from their father’s second marriage). The charter dated 1137 does not decide the point as it is possible that all Hugues’s sons named in that document were children at the time. Comte de Saint-Pol 1143. A charter dated 1145 records that “Ansellus de Hosden et Aiglina uxor eius” donated property “qui leur apartenoit du chef de ladite dame au village de Courcelles le Comte” to Eaucourt abbey, Artois, with the consent of “Robert fils dudit Ansellus de Hosden et de Ingerannus comes Ternensis et de Anselm frère dudit Ingelrannus...Adelais seur de ladite Aiglina”[1067]. “Ingerranus...comes de Sancto Paulo” donated property “de Beueri villa” to Marciennes abbey, with the consent of “fratris mei Anselmi et Anselmi de Hosden sororii mei et sororis mei Agelinæ et filii eius Roberti”, by undated charter witnessed by “...Elberti de Carenci...Anselmi de Pas...”[1068]. "Ingelrannus…de Sancto Paulo comes" donated property to the church of Thérouanne with the consent of "Anselmo fratre meo" by charter dated 1153[1069]. m as her first husband, IDA d'Avesnes, daughter of NICOLAS Seigneur d'Avesnes & his wife Mathilde de la Roche [Namur] (-[1205]). The primary source which confirms her first marriage has not been identified. The Chronicle of Alberic de Trois-Fontaines names (in order) "Iacobum et Idam castellanam Sancti Audemari" as children of "Nicolao de Avenes" & his wife[1070]. The Chronicon Hanoniense refers to the daughter of "Nicholaus filius [Walteri%E2%80%A6de Avethnes]" & his wife as "Willelmo…castellano Sancti Audomari maritatam"[1071]. She married secondly (before 1171) as his first wife, Guillaume [IV] Châtelain de Saint Omer Seigneur de Fauquemberques.

2. HUGUES de Saint-Pol . "Hugo Candavene" founded the abbey of Cercamp, with the consent of "filii eius Engelrandus et Hugo, Anselmus, Radulfus et Wido", by charter dated 1137[1072]. The identity of Hugues’s mother is discussed above under his brother Enguerrand.

3. ANSELME de Saint-Pol "Candavène" (-1175 or after). "Hugo Candavene" founded the abbey of Cercamp, with the consent of "filii eius Engelrandus et Hugo, Anselmus, Radulfus et Wido", by charter dated 1137[1073]. The identity of Anselme’s mother is discussed above under his brother Enguerrand. "Ingelrannus…de Sancto Paulo comes" donated property to the church of Thérouanne with the consent of "Anselmo fratre meo" by charter dated 1153[1074]. Seigneur de Lucheux 1162. Seigneur de Tarentefirt 1169. Comte de Saint-Pol 1170.

4. [son/daughter . The Historia Comitum Ghisnensium names [his/her daughter] "Flandrinam comitis Sancti-Pauli Hugonis neptem" as wife of "Willelmum de Ghisnis [filium Willelmi Andomarensis castellanus]"[1075]. The chronology of the families suggests that “neptis” in this case should be interpreted as indicating grand-daughter rather than niece. No other direct indication has been found of Flandrine’s parentage and presumably she could have been the daughter of any of the other children of Hugues [III] Comte de Saint-Pol who are named in this chapter. Du Chesne suggests that Flandrine was the daughter of Robert de Coucy Seigneur de Boves, who was married to Beatrix daughter of Comte Hugues by his second marriage, but he provides no credible explanation for selecting Beatrix and Robert as her parents rather than any other child of Hugues[1076]. According to Europäische Stammtafeln, Flandrine was the daughter of Anselme Comte de Saint-Pol, son of Comte Hugues by his first marriage, adding the date “1202” (applied also to two other daughters Marie and Beatrix, but the primary source which this date refers has not been identified)[1077]. Until more information comes to light, it is preferable to show Flandrine’s parentage in general terms only.] m --- .

5. BEATRIX de Saint-Pol (-after 1192). “Ingerranus de Bova” donated property from "Robertus pater meus hereditatem meam" to Amiens, with the consent of “Beatrice matre mea et Roberto fratre meo”, by charter dated 1192[1079]. The necrology of Amiens records the death "IV Non Mar" of "Beatricis sororis Hugonis comitis de Sancto Paulo et uxoris Roberti domini de Bova et matris Thomæ præpositi huius ecclesiæ"[1080]. It is assumed that either “sororis” in this entry is an error or the name “Hugonis”. The chronology suggests that Beatrix was the daughter of Comte Hugues [III]. According to Europäische Stammtafeln Beatrix was the daughter of Hugues [III] by his second marriage[1081]. There appears to be no definite indication about the identity of her mother, although the chronology appears to favour Marguerite de Clermont. m ROBERT de Coucy Seigneur de Boves, son of THOMAS Comte d’Amiens, Seigneur de Coucy & his third wife Mélisende de Crécy-sur-Serre (-Acre 19 Jun 1191).

With Baudouin she had one child:

1. GAUTHIER de Heilly . The De Genere Comitum Flandrensium, Notæ Parisienses refers to (but does not name) the daughter of "comes de Claromonte" and his wife Adela, specifying that she married thirdly "dominus Balduinus de Encra" by whom she had "domini Galteri de Helli"[377].

The Second Marguerite de Clermont

Comte Renaud & his second wife, Clemence de Bar, had:

5. MARGUERITE de Clermont (-29 Oct [1187]). Her parentage and marriage are confirmed by the charter dated May 1218 under which [her son] “Gui le bouteiller chevalier” relinquished his rights over the county of Clermont in favour of the king[138]. [%E2%80%9CRadulfus Oysardi filius” donated property at Creil to Saint-Leu d’Esserent, and the nuns obtained the consent of "comitem Rainaldum Claromontensem…uxor eius Clementia, filia…ipsius Margarita", by charter dated to [1119][139]. The dating of this document is problematic: while the presence of Marguerite suggests that she was still unmarried, the date is inconsistent with the estimated birth date of Clémence. It should be noted that Mathon dates the consent given by Comte Renaud to [1153], although he does not state why he says this[140]. If that dating is correct, the witness would have been Renaud’s daughter Marguerite by his second marriage, although it is unclear why she would have been singled out for giving consent without her brothers and sisters.] Louvet notes a donation to the priory of Gournay-sur-Aronde made by “Rainal Comte de Clermont et Clemence sa femme” which was confirmed and supplemented in 1165 by “leurs enfans...Raoult Comte de Clermont, Simon, Gautier, Margueritte, Matilde et Comtesse”[141]. "Henricus...Silvanect...episcopus" confirmed the donation of “decimam...in...nemoris de Braisilva” made to Saint-Nicolas d’Acy by “dominus Guido buticularius”, with the consent of “conjugis suæ Margaritæ et filiorum suorum Guidonis primogeniti et Willelmi junioris”, by charter dated 1171[142]. Dame de Luzarches. "Guido Ludovici…regis Francie buticularius" donated property to Chaalis, with the consent of "uxoris mee Margarite et filiorum meorum Guidonis, Willelmi, Rainaldi, Nivelonis et filie mee Adeline", by charter dated 1180[143]. m ([1 Aug 1154/26 Mar 1155]) GUY [III] de Senlis Seigneur de Chantilly et d'Ermenonville, son of GUILLAUME [I] "le Loup" Seigneur de Chantilly & his wife Adeline --- (-10 Oct 1188). Bouteiller de France.

Guy [III] & his wife had five children:

1. GUY [IV] (-before end-1221). "Henricus...Silvanect...episcopus" confirmed the donation of “decimam...in...nemoris de Braisilva” made to Saint-Nicolas d’Acy by “dominus Guido buticularius”, with the consent of “conjugis suæ Margaritæ et filiorum suorum Guidonis primogeniti et Willelmi junioris”, by charter dated 1171[314]. "Guido Ludovici…regis Francie buticularius" donated property to Chaalis, with the consent of "uxoris mee Margarite et filiorum meorum Guidonis, Willelmi, Rainaldi, Nivelonis et filie mee Adeline", by charter dated 1180[315]. Bouteiller de France 1188. "Guido regie Francorum buticularius" noted that "Hugo Lupus frater meus" donated a stall in the market of Paris, held by "Reutia filia predicti Hugonis, neptis mea" held in her life, to the abbey of Montmartre, by undated charter dated to the end-12th century[316]. “Gui le bouteiller chevalier” relinquished his rights over the county of Clermont in favour of the king by charter dated May 1218[317]. m (before 1187) ELISABETH de Trie, daughter of ENGUERRAND [II] "Aiguillon" de Trie & his wife Heddiva [Basilie] de Moncy (-10 Feb after 1219). The primary source which confirms her parentage and marriage has not been identified.

2. GUILLAUME [II] "le Loup" (-after [1189]). "Henricus...Silvanect...episcopus" confirmed the donation of “decimam...in...nemoris de Braisilva” made to Saint-Nicolas d’Acy by “dominus Guido buticularius”, with the consent of “conjugis suæ Margaritæ et filiorum suorum Guidonis primogeniti et Willelmi junioris”, by charter dated 1171[327]. "Guido Ludovici…regis Francie buticularius" donated property to Chaalis, with the consent of "uxoris mee Margarite et filiorum meorum Guidonis, Willelmi, Rainaldi, Nivelonis et filie mee Adeline", by charter dated 1180[328]. "Guillaume le Loup frère de Gui V le Bouteiller de Senlis" donated property to the church of Saint-Evremond de Creil in his testament made [before 1190] before leaving on crusade[329].

3. RENAUD (-murdered 10 Apr 1217). "Guido Ludovici…regis Francie buticularius" donated property to Chaalis, with the consent of "uxoris mee Margarite et filiorum meorum Guidonis, Willelmi, Rainaldi, Nivelonis et filie mee Adeline", by charter dated 1180[330]. Bishop of Toul 1207. The Chronicle of Alberic de Trois-Fontaines records in 1210 that “apud Tullum...Matheus...episcopus, reum ecclesie dilapidator conprobatus” was deposed and succeeded by “Reinaldus comitis Barri consanguineus frater Guidonis buticularii Silvanectensis”[331]. He was murdered by his predecessor Mathieu ex-Bishop of Toul. The Chronicle of Alberic de Trois-Fontaines records in 1217 that “episcopus Tullensis Renaldus” was killed by “predecessore suo...episcopo Matheo...IV Id Apr”, adding that Mathieu was placed “in scrinio” and raised high up in a tree[332].

4. NIVELON (-after 1180). "Guido Ludovici…regis Francie buticularius" donated property to Chaalis, with the consent of "uxoris mee Margarite et filiorum meorum Guidonis, Willelmi, Rainaldi, Nivelonis et filie mee Adeline", by charter dated 1180[333].

5. ADELINE (-after 1180). "Guido Ludovici…regis Francie buticularius" donated property to Chaalis, with the consent of "uxoris mee Margarite et filiorum meorum Guidonis, Willelmi, Rainaldi, Nivelonis et filie mee Adeline", by charter dated 1180[334].