Robert de Croc - Robert de Croc's children

Let's bring Henry of Molle into play ....

from http://archiver.rootsweb.ancestry.com/th/read/GEN-MEDIEVAL/2009-01/...

Taken together these three Liulfs seem to indicate a pedigree:

Edulf
|
Liulf “of Molle” and others
d 1118
|
Uchtred
|
Liulf filius Uctredi (? = sister Adam FitzUchtred)
|
Uchtred of Molle
alive probably ca 1150

Uchtred of Molle was dead probably some time before 1161x62 when Molle

is granted (RRS I, 183) to Walter FitzAlan, or ca 1165 when, at the
earliest, Henry de Molle and Eschina make a further grant to Kelso (No
178) “pro salute domini mei Regis Willelmi”. These two charters can
be most easily understood by Henry and Eschina retaining the liferent
of Molle, as was normal, but it not being recited in the Steward’s
charter.

Adding in this story of Saxon ancestry (unproven)

https://thefreelancehistorywriter.com/2013/07/27/the-sisters-of-ang...

Studies in peerage and family history by Round, John Horace, 1854-1928 Published 1901 "Origins of the Stewarts" page 115

https://archive.org/stream/studiesinpeerage02rounuoft#page/114/mode...

Leo's database

http://www.genealogics.org/getperson.php?personID=I00006181&tre...

Antiquities of Shropshire, Volume 7 By Robert William Eyton page 228 "Genealogy of the Houses of Fitz Alan and Stuart"

(it is this chart that Rounds corrects slightly above, but this chart includes WIVES)

https://books.google.com/books?id=6UtNAAAAMAAJ&vq=Walter%20Fitz...

Private User I wonder if I can get you to take a look at the Eschyna, Lady of Molle problem with me.

Thus far I believe

- the marriage reported to Robert le Croc is a crock. However he (or his son?) came into Molle lands, by gift from his lord Walter Fitz Alan & his lady Eschyna? By marriage to a more minor Molle heiress?

- the 2nd / 3rd marriage to Henry, of Molle, living in 1200, is not impossible. However the 4 Molle daughters are.

A note on Eschyna's children

From http://archiver.rootsweb.ancestry.com/th/read/gen-medieval/2004-11/...

"Andrew B. W. MacEwen, the noted Scots genealogist, published an article in The Genealogist in 2003 which resolved this deficiency. In that article, Mr. MacEwen identified Cristina as a daughter of Walter fitz Alan (d. 1177), the first Steward of Scotland of that family [3]. While this does not directly impact the ancestry of the Earls of Dunbar, as Earl Patrick's issue were by his 1st wife, it does bear on the ancestry of the Bruce Lords of Annandale, subsequently Earls of Carrick and Kings of Scots: a great many individuals (including most, if not all, of the Royal Houses of Europe) have ancestry impacted by this discovery."

With a further comment

http://archiver.rootsweb.ancestry.com/th/read/gen-medieval/2004-11/...

Please correct me if my memory is faulty, but I was pretty sure that
William Bruce of Annandale was not the ancestor of the later Bruces of
Annandale, Earls of Carrick, but instead that he died without issue.
That would mean the parentage of William Bruce's wife Christine would
have no impact on anyone's ancestry. (I don't have my files handy
right now, or else I wouldn't be so clueless . . .)

Now this snippet has a Lady China of Molle as well as a Lady Eschina:

From [https://books.google.com/books?id=iowwAQAAMAAJ&lpg=PA424&ot... page 24] of Publications, Issue 97, Volume 1. 1851 - Scotland. Origines Parochiales Scotiae: The antiquities, ecclesiastical and territorial, of the parishes of Scotland. "Mow"

>About the beginning of the same century ‘ Isabel the wife of Robert of Polloc, of her own will, with the consent of her husband, and by the advice of her father Robert Croc, granted to Simon of Lindesey in perpetual ferme her maritage which she had in the territory of Molle, namely, Hungerig with all its pertinents, liberties, and easements, as it was given to her father by the Lady China of Molle,' for payment of ten shillings yearly to herself, and of ‘an aerie of young hawks’ to the Lady China for her and her heirs—binding herself and her heirs, in case of their contravening of the written agreement, to pay 100 shillings in name of penalty to the said Simon or his deputies? The same land was afterwards granted by Symon of Lyndesie to Helen his daughter, to be held of Robert of Pollock and his heirs and of the Lady Eschyna and her heirs on the same terms on which he held it-and, if the said Helen should die without issue, he willed that her sister Eschyna his daughter and her heirs should succeed her in the land.3

From https://books.google.com/books?id=WTg7AwAAQBAJ&lpg=PA31&ots...

The Rises and Falls of the Royal Stewarts By Oliver Thomson

A second knight was Robert le Croc, another friend from Walter [Fitz Alan's] Shropshire days ... It is possible that Walter's wife Eschina of Mow was actually Croc's widow and already had 4 children (Walter, Alan, Simon and Isabel) before bearing 4 more to Walter. ... Robert of Pollok married Croc's daughter, known as Isabella de Molle ....

OK I may be changing my mind - if Eschyna's marriage to Walter FitzAlan is dated as late as indicated here:

http://poms.cch.kcl.ac.uk/db/record/person/1043/

Biography

Eschina of Mow was the heiress of Uchtred of Mow (ROX), probably his daughter or granddaughter, and frequently used the title 'lady of Mow'. She, and Uchtred, were sometimes called 'of London', indicating relations to the Border family of that name as well as close links to the royal family. Upon her first marriage to Walter, son of Alan, steward of Scotland (d. 1177), which probably took place either around June 1161 or around 1170, her lands of Mow fell to her husband. With Walter, she had a son, Alan (d.1204) and a daughter, Margaret, who predeceased her parents and was buried in Paisley Abbey. Her second husband, Henry, appears to have taken the 'of Mow' surname. With him, she probably had three daughters: Eschina, who may be the unnamed daughter buried at Kelso (d.×1186), as she had predeceased her mother; Avicia; and Cecilia. Avicia may have been older than Cecilia and predeceased her. Cecilia married Simon Mauleverer though it appears they had no children, as her heir was Gilbert Avenel, and lived until at least 1247. (Barrow, Kingdom of the Scots, 325-6)

Also see http://poms.cch.kcl.ac.uk/db/record/source/5168/#

Eschina, who may be the unnamed daughter buried at Kelso (d.×1186)

Here we have an Eschina of Molle who could have married a Robert de Croc before 1186 and had four children with him, and passed Molle property to a daughter Isabel?

Oh, good lord.

So what we've got here is a whole bunch of evidence of connections, some of these connections very clearly stated, all coming out of charters.

And a bunch of antiquarian transcriptions and accounts of these charters (Lady China and Lady Eschina are of course the same person; my bet is that if I were able to see photocopies of the original charters I'd see that there is a Latin abbreviation that hasn't been expanded.)

And then a bunch of historians, many of whom come from the Romantic Period of Annoying History Writing that Goes Up Dr. Brannen's Nose.

Sorry. I don't know how that last sentence got in here.

Here's what we know for sure, as far as for sure goes, with humans:

There was indeed a Walter FitzAlan, who was actually pretty important. He was given Renfrewshire on account of being awesome. In 1170, he gave some of those lands to Robert de Cros (Croc), who founded a chapel there in 1180.

We know from specific language in the charters that Walter's wife was named Eschina, and that she was connected to London. They were married in 1131.

In 1152, when she inherited land, she was called Eschyna de Londris. That doesn't mean that she wasn't married to Walter fitzAlan. She's just still being spoken of as of London.

We also know that Eschyna was married to Henry de Molle -- she had a daughter, Cecilia de Molle -- specific language in the charter.

Eschyna donated land for the soul of her husband Walter FitzAlan in 1186, and at that tiem she was married to Henry de Molle, which we know because she is specifically named Eschina de Molle in the charter. He donated land to the same church in 1198. (Though I note that one of the historians believes that it is she who was "of Molle," and that her second husband took his name from the lands that came to him when they were married. Whatever.)

That's all fine and dandy,no problem.

Now then. The issue is how does Robert de Croc come to be associated with the de Molle land.

It doesn't make sense to me that if our Eschyna was married to Robert de Croc before being married to Walter FtizAlan, that she would be being referred to as Eschyna de Londres during her marriage to FitzAlan, because she would have had by that time land of her own. OR she would be being referred to as the widow of de Croc. As far as I can tell, the early historians made the jump and put her in there, and then we all had to deal with it, but I'm not seeing the historical evidence.

And I'm not seeing where the idea that Robert de Croc's wife was named Eschyna is coming in, except from the historians -- is it there in the charter evidence, and I missed it?

I love that collection of documents they've got over at Paradox of Medieval Scotland -- there aren't any links to digitized originals, as far as I can see, but it's lovely they've put the precis of the documents up, AND since these are recent precis, I trust them more than the 19th century historians. Who, as I have mentioned, go up my nose -- not just for the horrible flowerly writing, but because the standards of manuscript transcription and interpretation were not as strict as they are now.

Anyway.

What I would do is keep it REALLY simple, and go by only what we can get out of the charters.

The main reason this is so confusing is that the early historians have made interpretations of the connections among these people and these interpretations don't always agree. So what was meant to be a Clarifying Illumination becomes instead a Confusing Mess of Darkness.

That collection of charter precis is what I would use. What we know from that.

And naturally now I am totally obsessed with this family.

going to go through all the charters in that link, to see what I can see.

Will get back to you.

I believe you know me too well, Erica Howton.

Ok. From the charters concerning Eschina de Londres/de Molle, in the Paradox collection:

Regesta Regum Scottorum ii, 184 (25 March, of 1173-1177) -- Eschina of Mar grants land to Kelso. Is the wife of Walter.

Paisley Registrum 74-5, 25 March, of 1173-1177) --Eschina is the wife of Walter FtizAlan. Her daughter Margaret is dead.

Paisley Registrum 15 (1177-1204, probably the earlier part of the spectrum): Alan is the son of Walter and Eschina.

Liber Sancte Marie de Calchou 146 (31 Jan 1186): Walter is dead; Eschina is still refered to as Eschina of London.

Liber Sancte Marie de Melros 295 (Sept 1195-1200): Isabella is the wife of Robert of Pollock and the daughter of Robert Crock. She received her marriage dowry (which she is transferring, in this charter) from her father, who got it from Lady Eschina.

Liber Sancte Marie de Calchou 178 (24 Aug 1198): Henry of Mow and Eschina his wife are both alive, granting land to Kelso.

Liber Sancte Marie de Calchou 178 (24 Aug 1198): Henry of Mow is the spouse of Eschina.

Liber Sancte Marie de Calchou 147 (from 24 Aug 1198 to 4 Dec 1214): Eschina of London grants some stuff to Kelso, for the salvation of various important people. She has a daughter named Eschina. Walter is dead; Henry is dead; Eschina is dead.

Liber Sancte Marie de Calchou, 22 Oct 1253: William de Vescy, the son of the late Eustace de Vescy, is asked by his knight Gilbert Avenal, heir of Cecila, the daughter of the late Eschina of Mow, to grant the lands of Cecilia to Kelso, that she acquired from Eschina.

Paisley Registrum 308-12 (1265): the lands of Kelso, being moved around, still include the pieces that were given to them, in the long ago, by Eschina of Mow.

***************

So. There are two Eschinas. One is the daughter of Eschina de Mow, the former Eschina de Londres. No evidence here that she was married. Clearly Eschina is connected to Robert Crock, but the charters we've got here do NOT say how, and it's a jump to say it's the younger Eschina. Alan is the son of Walter. Not clear from the charters who the father of Margaret and Eschina is.

But I'd think if they were the daughters of Walter that would be clear in the charters.

From http://fmg.ac/Projects/MedLands/SCOTLAND.htm#WalterFitzAlandied1177B

Eschina’s first marriage is indicated by the charter dated to [1200/02] under which her daughter "Cecilia de Molle filia Eschine de Molle…in mea viduitate" donated "toftum et croftum que fuerunt Willi de Mollehope…[et] in dominio meo de Molle", witnessed by "…magister Walterus de Mortuo Mari…decanus ecclesie Glasguensis…Johe nepote dni W. Glasg epi…"[1116].  This document shows that the donor was too old to have been born from Eschina’s [3rd] marriage to "Henry", and her name "de Molle" indicates that she was not born from her mother’s marriage to Walter FitzAlan. 

----

The POMS listing suggesting Eschina & Walter Fitz Alan were married possibly as late as the 1170's (?) turned me around ! Walter didn't arrive in Scotland until 1138. Also, he became a lay brother in 1176, which had me wondering if Eschina was still alive then?

We're going up against Wikipedia you know, not to mention FMG, so if we get it right on geni, we need to spread the word.

Wouldn't Eschina have been able to make grants in her own name? And she gave / sold land to Robert de Croc, and that's how The Scots Peerage decided they had been married?

"And naturally now I am totally obsessed with this family. ..."

Eschina has been bothering me for a couple of years, OK since I read the lush Antiquarian prose. :).

This time I am realizing how totally awesome Walter Fitz Alan was.

I didn't see evidence of Walter becoming a member of the Cluniac order, monk or lay brother, in the charters I was looking at, and it's not coming up in a quick search.

He founded Paisley Abbey, which was built on an older site, and was buried there. But his having joined the order isn't coming up in his biographies or histories of Paisley Abbey.

do we have evidence other than from the florid historian, that I have simply missed?

if not, I'd ignore it.

Yes, I was looking for that. So far I've found the lively modern guy, on page 34

https://books.google.com/books?id=WTg7AwAAQBAJ&lpg=PA31&dq=...

... At about this time [1174] he seems to have decided to retire, and became a brother at Melrose Abbey, to which he gave the lands at Mauchline to cover his expenses ...

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mauchline

In 1165, Walter fitz Alan, High Steward of Scotland, granted a charter giving land to the Cistercian Monks of Melrose. In those days the parish extended to the border with Lanarkshire at Glenbuck. The monks built an abbey, the ruins of which still exist and are known as Hunters Tower or, more recently, as Mauchline Castle.

https://books.google.com/books?id=TNsrhs2mF3oC&lpg=PA322&ot...

Modern guy Barrow noting Eschina enfoeffed a Mow portion to Robert Croc, tenant / vassal of Fitz Alan, the portion that was passed to Croc's daughter Isabel.

----

Elsewhere Croc is said to have come with Fitz Alan from Shropshire, which would have been 1138 or after.

Yes, the founding of the abbey. But the historian doesn't give us notes, and indeed simply says "seems to have decided to retire and became a brother" -- so supposedly that information is in the abbey charters (I'm assuming that they survived; the Reformation got rid of LOTS of abbey charters). But I'm not seeing any notes anywhere that tell me which charter gives us the information that he not only gave the gift, but became a brother. That's very specific info; not seeing the evidence of it.

And indeed, the fact that he died elsewhere argues against it.

Oh hey check out footnote 20 here

https://books.google.com/books?id=Cqb9nsvIZGYC&lpg=PA230&ot...

Proceedings of the Battle Conference 2002 edited by John Gillingham

20. It is probable that Henry de Mow was Henry de Cormunnock, the second husband of Eschina de Londres, widow of the steward, Walter fitz Alan.

Walter Fitz Alan, Seneschal of the king of Scotland, was also a benefactor to Melrose Abbey. He granted to that house the lands of Machline in Kyle, about the year 1170, says my authority. His charter seems to be yet in existence. Its seal presents on one side the figure of an "armed Knight on horseback; at full speed; a lance, with pennon, couched in his right hand and a shield on his left arm." The legend is, Sigillum Walteri filii Alani Dapiferi Reg. The counterseal presents "a Warrior with a spear in his right hand, leaning against a pillar, and with his left hand holding a horse."2
Here then we have another authentic notice of Walter Fitz Alan as steward or seneschal of the king of Scots.

At his death, in 1177, the Melrose Chronicle accords him the same title, as well as commemorates the ties which had bound him to that house.—" Obiit Walterus Alius Alani, dapifer Regis Scotise, familiaris noster, cujus beata anima vivat in gloria."

----
https://books.google.com/books?id=vgxdAAAAIAAJ&lpg=PA349&ot...

----

"familiaris noster"

??

From Barrow as quoted http://archiver.rootsweb.ancestry.com/th/read/GEN-MEDIEVAL/2009-01/...

[18] Kelso Libert, no. 176. Uhtred son of Liulf seems to have had a son
named Adam and a brother named Liulf who had a son William (St. Bees Reg., 550-1; Kelso Liber, no. 170), so that when Malcolm IV in 1161 granted Mow (in marriage?) to Walter I son of Alan (RRS i, no. 183) he may have been overriding the rights of male heirs, for which practice see above, pp. 23-4.

In the case of Mow, the problem is complicated by our ignorance of the
identity of Eschina of London's second husband Henry, by whom she evidently had daughters Cecily and Maud who were heirs in Mow. Was he, perhaps, Henry son of Anselm, alias Henry of Carmunnock (Paisley Reg., 105) and son of the Anselm 'de Wichetune' or 'of Mow' noticed below, n. 20?

http://poms.cch.kcl.ac.uk/db/record/factoid/57850/#

http://db.poms.ac.uk/record/factoid/57850/

https://books.google.com/books?id=0GTlAAAAMAAJ&lpg=PA409&ot...

Between the years 1165 and 1306 several families or individuals appear to have derived their surname from the land of Whitton. In the reign of King William the Lion Patrick of Wichithun held lands in Spot, Anselm of Wichetune was laird of Molle, and charters are during the same period witnessed by the same Patrick, and by Anxel, Arkil, Adam, Thomas the clerk, and William10

The phrase "familiaris noster" could mean that he was a brother of the house, but it can also mean that he was intimate with the hoyse, or it could mean that he was a member of a lay confraternity, which is not the same as taking orders, and indeed women could be in one too.

It means, really, our close friend, in some kind of form.

At any rate. He didnt die there, but at Melrose. He had a close relationship with the abbey he founded, and was brough back and buried there. But it looks like he didnt live there. And Escyna was alive when he died, as we know from the charters.

My guess is that the story about him becoming a lay brother there (and since its a lowly position that too seems odd) was a romanticization based on that "familiaris noster" phrasing, which can mean that he joined, in some way, the brothers, but doesnt have to.

Found Isabel of Molle's charter in Latin

https://archive.org/stream/libersanctemarie00bann#page/260/mode/2up