Robert de Croc - Robert de Croc's children

The whole thing about being a lay brother while his wife was living seemed improbable. And you're right - if he's really retiring, giving up offices, and "going to live" as a monk, wouldn't there be more charters to his son? But Alan fitz Walter seems to have inherited in usual ways?

I would love to know when Alan was born, and where.

Ha! The Latin transcription of the charter does not expand the abbreviations. In the case of Eschyna' name, when it appears as "chine', no abbreviation is indicated. But wr have no way to know what's in the charter, cause we cant see it.

Could have been the spelling in the original. Coukd have been an abbreviation missibg in the original. Could have been an abbreviation left out by the transciber.

But they are the same person.

19th C transcriber. They used to be the bane of my existence.

:). I take it this is still not close to the original charter?

Anyway - is it the nail the origin of the Robert Croc marriage to Eschinya, that could not have taken place before 1138 because he was on the other side of the country until he was granted land for services to Walter Fitz Alan, who was, at that time, married to Eschinya?

Never mind the likelihood Walter had earned the marriage of a local heiress for his own services rendered to the King, from the King, and why would the King have married Eschinya to Walter's vassal first?

This is a transcription of the original charter, a d pretty much as close as we are going to get to it other than digital images, which are also problematic.

No, its very good; its just that standards and methods have changed.

Anyway.

I dont believe Escyna was married to Robert de Croc.

And i dont believe Walter joined the monastery.

OK, I think we're comfortable that TSP etc misinterpreted the Isabel de Molle charter, and presumed that Robert Croc "must have" come by the Maw / Molle property by marriage to Eschinya, as her name is mentioned.

But surely there are other reasons she, in her Eschinya of Molle name, would have / could have passed him the property, and no dating is mentioned for that transaction. However Robert Croc is living in 1202 (?), when he affirms the gift to his daughter Isabel, which rules him out as a husband preceding Walter fitz Alan, died in 1177, and not as a monk.

Our next question is the Henry de Molle marriage & four daughters. Eschina ll is deceased in 1198, when Eschina l is offering prayers for her daughter Eschina. Eschina and her husband Henry de Molle are doing property transactions in 1200.

Is this proof that the 4 daughters are by Henry de Molle, her 2nd / 3rd husband?

Should mention the four daughters seem ruled out as daughters of Walter fitz Alan, as they are only mentioned in a Molle / Maw property context.

And on that note, since Walter fitz Alan is not particularly known to have been in Scotland before 1136 -- instead associated with the Empress Matllda, is it not possible he had a first marriage, and Eschinya was his second, some time after he has become David l's buddy?

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https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Walter_fitz_Alan

When Empress Matilda's cause was lost, Walter befriended David I who was an uncle of Matilda. He became David's dapifer or Steward. Accompanied by his brother Simon,[5] Walter came to Scotland about 1136 [6] and fought for Scotland at the Battle of the Standard at Northallerton in 1138 under the command of David I's son, Prince Henry. ...

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That would push the time line for the marriage more into the 1160 suggested by POMS, and make it far more possible for Eschinya to have had another family "after" 1177.

Otherwise she would be being too old.

My hesitation about that is that he's too big a figure for another wife not to be mentioned.

Known dates for the Robert Croc who was perhaps the father of Isabel of Molle

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Robert_Croc

Croc is known to have assigned the patronage of Neilston to the monks of St Mirren's in 1163, on condition that masses should be regularly said for the benefit of his soul.[3]

an Anglo-Norman[1] knight and landowner in Scotland in the High Middle Ages. He was given the Levern valley in Scotland by King David I of Scotland in 1170.

Crookston, Glasgow takes its name from Robert Croc.[1] Crookston Castle is surrounded by a defensive ring-ditch that dates back to the 12th century when Croc, built a timber and earth castle. Remains of a chapel founded by de Croc in 1180 have been uncovered.[2]

re: My hesitation about that is that he's too big a figure for another wife not to be mentioned.

Agree. I wonder if we can get dates for the children's births:

Not sure how reliable but anyway --

http://www.englishmonarchs.co.uk/stewart_16.html

Walter fitz Alan married Eschyna de Londoniis, heiress of Uchtred de Molla & Huntlaw. They had issue:-

(1) Alan fitz Walter

(2) Walter fitz Walter

(3) Simon fitz Walter

(4)Margaret fitz Walter married Robert de Montgomery of Eaglesham.

(5) Christiana fitz Walter, married firstly William de Brus, Lord of Annandale, secondly Patrick, Earl of Dunbar.

Walter FitzAlan founded Paisley Abbey in 1163 when he issued a charter for a priory to be built upon the site, it was raised to the status of abbey in 1245. Walter died at Black Hall Manor in Paisley in 1177.

Alan FitzWalter, High Steward of Scotland

Well, my inclination is that David l rewarded Walter fitz Alan's service by marrying him to a local heiress ASAP, as Walter already had a proven reputation for competence. So I am taken aback by the 1160 date suggested by POMS (although it solves the 4 daughter / Henry de Molle problem).

My solution to all this would be to keep the information as simple as possible, and add in copious notes considering the historians' different takes on everything.

Historians are very important and we love them dearly. The written records can be interpreted in different ways, and they interpret them thusly.

So far I have the Henry de Molle family separate, which is bothering me because she seems to have been married to him. :(

BTW the Isabel Croc charter seems to call Eschyna "Domina," rather than wife of anyone.

According to Sir Walter Scott (!!)

https://books.google.com/books?id=yiAIAAAAQAAJ&pg=PA75&lpg=...

Genealogical Memoirs of the Family of Sir Walter Scott, Bart., of Abbotsford ... By Charles Rogers page Xii

"I. Uchtred Fitz-Scott, or Filius Scott, who flourished at the court of King David I., and was witness to two charters granted by him to the Abbeys of Holyroodhouse and Selkirk, dated in the years 1128 and 1130. It is, however, believed that from the days of Kenneth III. the barony of Scotstoun, in Peeblesshire, had been possessed by the ancestors of this Uchtred, who, being descended from Galwegian forefathers, were called Scots, Galloway being inhabited by the clan to whom that name properly belonged.

"II. Richard Scott, son of Uchtred, witnessed a charter granted by the Bishop of St Andrews to the Abbey of Holyroodhouse about the year 1158.

"III. Eichard Scott, son of Richard, who married Alicia, daughter of Henry de Molla, with whom he received lands in Roxburghshire, in the reign of Alexander the Second.

"IV. "William Scott, son of Eichard, attended the court of Alexander the Second, and witnessed several of his charters.

So - I think we do not have proof that the daughters of Henry de Molle were by Eschina. And we do not know who the father was of her daughter Eschina ll, offered prayers for her soul in 1186.

From http://fmg.ac/Projects/MedLands/SCOTLAND.htm#WalterFitzAlandied1177B

WALTER FitzAlan, son of ALAN FitzFlaald & his [second] wife Adeline [Aveline] de Hesdin (-1177).

[m firstly ---.  No direct evidence has been found of Walter’s supposed first marriage.  However, the charter of Eschina de Molle, Walter’s known wife, is subscribed by "Waltero filio Alani domino meo, Alano filio eius…", which suggests that Alan was not her son.  This impression is confirmed by the charter of Eschyna dated to after 1198 which is witnessed by her two daughters but does not name Alan FitzWalter at all. 

In addition, the charters quoted above show that Walter was already active in the service of the kings of Scotland in [1135/41].  He is therefore unlikely to have been born much later than 1110.  However, his wife Eschina remarried after his death in 1177, and appears in documentation in the last years of the 12th century, so is unlikely to have been as old as her husband.] 

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So who are her daughters?

2.         [MARGARET (-bur Paisley).  "Eschina uxor Walterii filii Alani dapiferi regis Scotie" donated "terra in Molla" to Paisley monastery, for the soul of "Margarete filie mee que apud Passetet in capitulo jacet sepulta", by undated charter, witnessed by "Waltero filio Alani domino meo, Alano filio eius…"[1127].  It is not certain whether Margaret was born from her mother’s first or second marriage.] 

3.         [ESCHINA (-bur Kelso).  "Eschina de Londonis" confirmed the donation of "ecclesiam de Molle", for the souls of "dni mei Gauterii filii Alani et…filie mee que apud Kelcho sepulta est", by charter dated 30 Jan 1185[1128].  "Dna Eschina de Lundoniis" confirmed the donation of "ecclesiam de Molle", for the souls of "dominorum meorum regis Willi et Alexi filii eius…et dominorum meorum dni Waltii fil Alani et dni Henr et…Eschine filie mee", by charter dated to after 1198, witnessed by "Dna Avicia filia mea, Dna Cecilia filia mea…"[1129].  It is not certain whether Eschina was born from her mother’s first, second or third marriage.] 
 

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I'm coming around to Crawley on this.

References

[1127] Paisley Monastery, p. 74. 
[1128] Kelso, Tome I, 146, p. 113. 
[1129] Kelso, Tome I, 147, p. 114. 

https://archive.org/stream/libersmariedeca01kels#page/113/mode/1up

https://archive.org/stream/libersmariedeca01kels#page/114/mode/1up

https://archive.org/stream/libersmariedeca01kels#page/115/mode/1up

https://archive.org/stream/libersmariedeca01kels#page/118/mode/1up

https://archive.org/stream/libersmariedeca01kels#page/120/mode/1up

(not that I can read these - just pick out Eschyna's name)

I couldnt find this is in the Kelso book

From http://www.electricscotland.com/history/women/scottish_women_chapte...

" ... the monastery of Kelso had schools in the town of Roxburgh as early, and we read of the widowed Lady of Molle, a great landowner in the Merse, resigning part of her dowry lands to Kelso on condition that her son was educated at the monastery schools."

Back to Alicia / Avicia de Molle

http://quod.lib.umich.edu/e/ecco/004896980.0001.000/1:52?rgn=div1;v...

The peerage of Scotland: containing an historical and genealogical account of the nobility of that kingdom, ... collected from the public records, and ancient chartularies of this nation, ... Illustrated with copper-plates. By Robert Douglas, Esq;. Douglas, Robert, Sir, 1694-1770. Pages 99 - 105

is needless to trouble our readers with more examples of the antiquity of the name of Scot; and as we cannot positively ascer∣tain the first ancestor of the house of Buck∣cleugh, we shall take the succession of the first four generations from a M. S. history of that family,*

*. M. S. hist. of the family of Buccleugh, penes M'Far∣farlane.

written by a good antiquary, who had perused their old writs, the connection whereof is submitted to the judgment of our readers, and is as follows:

1. UCHTREDUS filius SCOT, before men∣tioned, was the progenitor of this illustrious family, and from him all the Scots in Scot∣land are descended.

This Uchtredus was witness to the foun∣dation-charters of the Abbays of Holyrood∣house and Selkirk,* by king David I. anno 1128 and 1130.

The author of the M. S. does not affirm that this Uchtred had taken Scot for his sir∣name; only, that being the son of a Scotsman, he was designed filius Scot, to distinguish him from other Uchtreds, which was a numerous christian name in Scotland about that time.

He was father of

II. RICHARD, who certainly assumed the sirname of Scot, and lived in the reigns of king Malcolm IV. and king William the lion.

Richardus Scot is witness to a charter of Robert,* bishop of St. Andrews, to the abbacy of Holyroodhouse. This Robert, who found∣ed the priory of St. Andrews, died anno 1158; so the charter, which has no date, must have been granted in or before that year.

This Richard is said to have had two sons, Richard and Michael: which was the eldest we shall not pretend to determine.

Richard carried on the line of this family, and Michael was the undoubted ancestor of the Scots of Balweary, and had considerable pos∣sessions in lands about Dumfermline before the year 1200,* particularly the lands of Gas∣cumemefen, &c Vide vol. II. of this work.

III. RICHARD SCOT, son of the above mentioned Richard, in the reign of king A∣lexander
Page  100
II. married Alicia, one of the daugh∣ters and co-heiresses of Henry de Molla, by whom he got a fair estate in the county of Roxburgh;* out of which he made a donation to the abbacy of Kelso, of eight acres of land, pro salute animae suae, &c.

*. Chartul. of Kelso penes eundem.

Alicia had done gone time traveling ...

Alicia Scott

From https://books.google.com/books?id=Iy0BAAAAQAAJ&lpg=PA24&ots...

Page 24-25 of The Stewarts of Appin, by J.H.J. and D. Stewart 1880

Walter married Eschina, sister of Alan, fifth Earl of Athole (in right of his wife, eldest granddaughter of Henry, fourth Earl of Athole), and daughter of Thomas de Londoniis, who had been appointed by William the Lion " Hostiarius," or Door ward, an office which became hereditary in the family, and from which they assumed the surname of Durward. Thomas was son of Malcolm de Londiniis, who received from Malcolm IV. the lands of Lundin in Forfarshire, when his brother Philip obtained from the same monarch the barony also called Lundin, near Largo, in Fife. Eschina was the widow of Henry de Molla, and brought to her second husband the baronies of Molla and Huntlaw in Teviotdale, Roxburghshire. Gordon says, in his "Monasticon," "Eschina de Londiniis, the wife of Henry of Molle, gave to Kelso a confirmatory charter in 1185, to the convent, of the church of Molle, its lands and liberties." In her charter, circa A.d. 1190, in favour of the Abbey of Kelso, the grant is made for the souls of her " lords," Walter the Steward and Henry of Molle. These estates of Molla and Huntlaw remained in the family of Stewart for many generations, as King Robert III. erected all the lands of the Stewart of Scotland, which were either in the Baronies of Renfrew, or in Kyle Stewart in Ayrshire, as well as also their lands of Molla, Huntlaw, and Hassendean in Roxburghshire, and the lands of Orde in the shire of Peebles, into a Regality " in honorem Dei, Beatae Virginis Marian, et Beato Jacobo Apostolo, et Sancto Mirino Confessori, pro salute animal suae, et animarum antecessorum Regum, Senescallorum Scotiae." The chartulary of Paisley shows that Eschina granted to the prior and monks of Paisley a carucate, or one hundred acres of land, with pasturage for fifty oxen, for the welfare of the souls of the Kings of Scotland and England, Walter her husband, herself, her son Alan, and Margaret, her daughter, who died unmarried, and was buried at Paisley. Among the witnesses to this charter are her husband, "Walterus filius Alani," described as "Dominus meus," and "Alanus filius ejus."
The last grant of Walter to his church at Paisley is that of an annual payment of two chalders of meal for the support of a monk to pray for the soul of Robert de Brus, showing an early connection between the houses of Stewart and Bruce, a relation which became more close in later years. Ramsay says that towards the close of his life Walter assumed the monastic habit, and passed the evening of his days within the hallowed precincts of the Abbey of Melrose, where he died in 1177. In the Chronicle of Melros there is the following record of his death: "Anno Domini 1177 obiit Walterus, filius Alani, Dapifer Regis Scotiae, qui fundavit Pasleto, cujus beata anima vivit in gloria," Fordun says he died in 1178, but the different periods from which, in those days, the commencement of the year was computed, often caused such discrepancies in dates. Walter was buried at Paisley, which continued to be the burying place of the Stewarts till they ascended the throne; indeed, after their accession, it was occasionally employed as their place of sepulture.

Not that it matters, but I think this might be the origin of the "Walter becomes a monk" idea

https://books.google.com/books?id=z7DArlXAaf8C&lpg=PR12&ots...

Page 27 of The Abbey of Paisley, from Its Foundation Till Its Dissolution: With Notices ... By James Cameron Lees. 1878.

The Stewart soon colonised, after the fashion of the time, the lands thus generously bestowed on him. He built a castle for himself in the neighbourhood of Renfrew, || and he gave holdings to his followers throughout his wide territory of Strathgryff, as his Renfrewshire property was called. On eminences here and there might be seen the strongholds of his retainers, and in their neighbourhood the settlements inhabited, and the lands cultivated by their followers.

The same names which appear in the Doomsday Book as inhabiting Shropshire, are transferred to the neighbourhood of Paisley. ...

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In looking out for a monastic order to introduce into his newlyacquired northern territory, the Lord High Stewart was naturally influenced by his early associations. In his native county of Shropshire there was a convent of Clunaic Benedictines at Wenlock, with the order of which he was familiar. It had been founded by Montgomery, the Earl of Shrewsbury, a younger son of whom, Robert de Montgumbri, was among the Stewart'sfollowers, and had obtained from him the manor of Eaglesham, in Renfrewshire. This monastery had also been greatly enriched by gifts from the Lady of Clugny.t From Wenlock the Scottish colonist therefore sought to obtain his monastic contingent. Being in attendance on King Malcolm, his sovereign, at Fotheringay Castle, in Northamptonshire, in or about 1163J he entered into an agreement with Humbaldus, who presided as Prior over the house of Wenlock. The agreement is carefully drawn out, and is witnessed by the chancellor and chaplain of the Scottish King, and the abbot of the great house of Rievaulx. On the one hand, Walter, the son of Alan, "for the soul of King David, and King Henry, and Earl Henry, and the souls of his parents and benefactors, and for the health of the body and soul of King Malcolm, to the honour of God," agrees to build an house of religion on his land of Passelay, "according to the order of the brotherhood of Wenlock, which is the order of the Clunaic monks." He is to have thirteen of the brethren to originate the Monastery, and is to have the right of choosing the Prior who is to rule over them, which right is to be vested in himself and his successors, and, except in the general recognition of the order, the proposed house at Paisley is to have no connection with Wenlock. On the other hand, Humbaldus is to procure for the new foundation the recognition of the Clunaic order, and especially of the Prior of La Charite* and the Abbot of Clugny, and in return for these services he is to receive from the Stewart certain properties in his Burgh of Renfrew, and rights of fishing in his waters,—among others, that of catching herring, t It took some time to procure the sanction of the project by Suaricius, the Prior of La Charite, and Stephen, the Abbot of Clugny, \ and probably Humbaldus had to visit these foreign monasteries for this purpose. These dignitaries, however, readily gave their consent; and Stephen, in recognition of the generosity of Walter, received him into the brotherhood, and made him partaker of the prayers of the whole Order of Clugny, decreeing that, at his death (if he should not have become one of their monks before that time), the same prayers, and masses, and psalms, and other offices, should be said for him as for one of the order.*

So soon as the buildings were sufficiently forward at Paisley the monks moved thither. The founder, accompanied by his son Alan and some honest men, || perambulated and measured off certain land in the neighbourhood for their use. He also drew up two charters If in their favour, which, as they contain a statement of the nucleus of the wealth that they subsequently acquired, we venture to give in their entirety. The first is entitled "The Charter of Walter, the son of Alan, the founder, of various lands and churches as well on this side of the muirs as the other." It is as follows:— ....

[The charter for Paisley in mentions his full grown son Alan, his wife [not by name], and the witnesses include Robert Croc. ]

""With these great endowments the Convent of Paisley began its career."

(he really was awesome)

Yes, this makes sense. He was a sort of honorary member of the order. Not a lay member (the guys that do most of the work), nor, certainly, a full brother. An honorary member, and allowed to be buried there. Awesome.

In other words, Walter gets eternal prayers, and [honorary, and if he chooses, actual] brotherhood in the order of Cluniac monks, in return for his benefactor-ship. Not a lay brother, and whether he actually lived as a monk is probably moot.

He had been cheated too! By one of the early guys!! And ... He lays out the land himself!!!

He's kind of a medieval superhero.

:)

From page 42 or thereabouts

The wife of the founder, Eschina of Molla, in Roxburghshire, followed in the steps of her husband. She had a daughter who was buried in the chapter house of the Priory, the first of many of that noble race who lie within the sacred precincts; and the place had naturally for her the tenderest associations. Even in the dry, legal language of the charter in which her gift is set forth, there is a touch of pathos in the words, in which, after stating that her donation is "for the welfare of my Lord King William, and David his brother, and my own souL and those of our heirs, and for the soul of King Henry of England, and for the soul of King David, and King Malcolm, and King Henry," she adds, "and for the soul of Margaret, my daughter, who lies buried in the chapter house at Passlet."* Her gift was a carucatet of land, and pasture for fifty sheep. The land is described with great exactness, and the boundaries so clearly set forth that it would probably not be difficult even yet to identify them. "From where the Stelnburn falls into the Blakburne, and by the Blakburne upwards to the two stones lying by the bank of the Blakburne, and opposite the house of Ulfi the steward, on the west part, and so upwards to a ditch, and to two standing stones in that ditch, and from these stones to another ditch filled with stones, and from that ditch to Heselensahe, and from that by the footpath under Heselensahe to the shallow at the waterfall of Alernbarhe, and from thence to the ford of the Stelnburn, and so by the Stelnburn till it descends to the Blakburne. "J

The exactness and clearness with which such charters as these are drawn out is wonderful, and they exhibit an amount of legal skill and use of language which one would hardly have expected to find in those very early times. §

§ 1165. The influence of the Normans infused through the country by degrees the great feudal usages of the continent, in the structure of which they had taken an eminent part. It was their speciality that down to the minutest transaction, their operations should be articulated, and the articulation should be recorded for future use.—Burton's History of Scotland, Vol. I. p. 283.

Page 46 or so

Gifts of churches to the Priory and its monks are frequent during those early years. The churches of Cathcart,|| Carmunnoc,** Inverkip,tt and Mearns,JJ were bestowed on the Monastery with all their lands and tithes, their dues and privileges. The duties of these churches were discharged by a vicar, who collected their revenues ...

|| Reg. de Pas., p. 5.
** Ibid, p. 105. Cormunoc was given by Henry, the son of Anselm, who left his body and that of his wife, with the third part of their substance, to the Abbey, tt Ibid, p. 112, by Baldwin, Count of Lanark. XX Ibid, p. 98.

____

We've seen Barrow's suggestion that Henry of Cormunoc, son of Anselm, was the actual name of Eschyna's 2nd / 3rd husband, otherwise known as Henry of Molle.

Yes, and it makes sense to me.

Let's add it? With explanatory note about how we get it?