Rice Pudding Part 2, Quest For Truth

Started by John Smith on Friday, October 25, 2013
Problem with this page?


  • Geni member
  • Private User
    Geni member
  • Geni Pro
  • (No Name)
    Geni member
  • Private User
    Geni member

Profiles Mentioned:

Related Projects:

This discussion has been closed by an administrator.
Showing 91-120 of 3037 posts

Dale the notes for Josiah say "unproven.". It's not ruled out.

W......I trust your recommendation without question, but I grew up in the Pacific North West of Nebraska Farm Origin and the Tao Te Ching was never mentioned....My upbringing was distinctly 19th Century even though I am a Mid Century guy.....LOL needless to say the people in the school system could not pidgen hole me....Regards DCR

Standing on the Shore of TENBY Wales I was given to looking past the harbor to the neck of lands jutting out from the North in faint bule and grey, sitting mid way from the sea surface and a brilliant blue sky.....I wondered, "Why would anyone leave this place for the Unknown Plantations of the New World....when this sparkling jewel of a town was so near HOME?" I am being pushed to find out the WHY by what a TAROT card reader once described as a VERY old White Haired man....(not me, though Im certainly White-haired). Why does one leave hundreds of acres of income producing land, houses, properties of rent, and 8 children and a wife and a father still living? YES, I know what the reports say, Perrott ap Rice 1600 died young, before his father's passing....The Sheriif of Pembroke was a cousin, named Barlow....who had dealings with his cousin in Barbado's 1655, 15 years after Perrott disappeared and left all that was known BEHIND......FYI this is the reason I am searching now. DCR 1948

Dale that's a wonderful question also, and applies to all our first arrivers to America, doesn't it?

I don't know if you're familiar with the work of historian David Hackett Fischer, but this is exactly the sort of question he addresses in his book Albion's Seed.


Thanks for the referral Ms. Erica....I will get a copy of it next trip to Border's, I googled the summary and that's quite a GRASP Mr. Fischer has on Sociological Thought....Ms. A. Davis was in residence at UCLA Davis I believe when I sat in those classes at Monmouth, Or back in the Early 70's....which had I known what I do today...I would have pursued. It always made so much sense....and after my first hand experience in a FACTORY setting I found myself messing with the Machinerey to register my contemp as a PERSON against the machine.....(TRUE)....I know those thinkers were onto something.....ANOME is for real.....I digress: Im going to buy the Book.....DCR

There was also the fact of the entitle....only the eldest son inherited the father's property...the others really got zilch (or that piece of swampland).....so the chance to make their way in life often WAS to emigrate.....there were also political upheavals and famines in Europe when a vast majority left your beautiful England and went to America.

Sorry...British Isles or United Kingdom (which includes your Wales).

Fay B.: You are right about the inheritence laws, that was a Norman Custom that came over with WTC 1066....as opposed to the equal shares of the IRISH which deminish the core land holding to postage stamp size parcels...In Perrott's case he would have inherited all the land since his brother John ap Rhys 1600 was a Cavalier in the Kings ArmY and died approx. 1638-1645....In any event a powerful motivation drove him to abandon WALES, I won't rehash that here. DCR1948

FYI: I have asked Kris Stewart to remove William Mercer of Lancashire 1534 as father to Margaret Mercer 1580 married to Thomas ap Rice 1570....Welsh journals on line11gc-id104178 pgs 20-24 show that the only child William MERCER had was a son named JOHN MERCER born 1568 12 years before Margaret was Born 1580....The lineage of Margaret MErCer is now an open and researchable question....My aural history she is connected somehow to the mercers of King Henry Tudor Era....the Warrens or LOCKES....so Im headed in that direction....DCR 1948

See Joan North Joan Wilkinson mother of Jane Wilkinson married to Chrisitan Locke Christopher Locke, of Pensford and Jane MErCER-Grey Jane Gray / Grey grandaughter of TAcinda Tudor....there is something about this Trio that begs for investigation...yes? DCR

I'd like to address some of the situations that Remi brought up on 10/29.

1.) marriages: I often find a marriage record or actual recording of a marriage on http://familysearch....and will add it as a document....you can 'cite' the name, sometimes age (which gives date of birth) and gender,(if you are lucky it gives parents names, occupation) the info on marriage can go into the blank box (i.e. married Mary Smith in Salem, Ma on 10/21/1864).

If you save the data on your harddive ...save it as John Brown-1864 marriage record.....and (at least on my system) it will transfer to Geni and PLACE it into the 'timeline of events' in its proper place.

2.) engagements--why bother (plus intentions filed often dupicates the info)

3.) events--if you save a document; save it with a date (i.e. John Brown-1850 census)....and it will place it automatically into the timeline.

4.) titles...such as Dr, Lt, Sgt.. can go into the 'display' name. A person was born as John Alfred Brown.....but became a physician and was professionally and publically known as Dr. John Brown.

5.) the same man was known as Jack, Johnny, J.Alfred (these I put into nicknames)....which is also where I would put alternate spellings found on census'

I am afraid I suffer from overkill since I also will put the info from marriage records, census', death certificates etc into the 'about me'....(not every one takes the time to check the documents attached, and not every document is easy to read). I put the events in chronological order....

I try to set up the 'about me' with 1) brief bio. 2) children .... 3) documents....with Find a grave at the end (it is the last event)......then general sources (genealogy, wiki, Town History and others)...

For what its worth, that is how I address the situations/problems that Remi mentioned.

And I ask questions....to collaborators (a lot of Curators), the managers (if there is one...I work a lot with un-worked siblings so often I am the only manager....doesn't keep me from asking for help if I find a weird situation.....and I utilize the sources I have....

I treat every profile as tho it is a stand-alone profile that is looking for a home...so I put enough info into it so it can do just that (or I try...still have quite a few earlier profiles to return to and take care of).

That's very sound Advice Fay B. I thank you and will try to follow it....DCR

Not my brilliant idea...follow the format set up in a lot of Genealogies and Town Histories.....

The sneaky part (and this IS my idea) is that if you put the children in a short format (name, dob) close to the top of the 'about me' you can then SEE the info when you go to the profile and can 'hover' over a child's name (you should get the same listing of children and the same dobs).

A larger bio for the profile can go UNDER the children's listing...

W: Nice Photo of the Nebula and I concur with the image and it's implications....I will get back to the computer lesson. The Mercer that Jane Tudor-Grey marries is utterly unlisted Jane Gray / Grey No references anywhere except that Janes Name is changed to MERCER....then lists Jane Wilkinson Jane Wilkinson as daughter but Joan North Joan Wilkinson (Fundamentalis smuggler of books to Anne Bolyne) is also listed as mother for Jane Wilkinson.....any thoughts? DCR 1948

Well that helps.....I was beginning to wonder about my connections here on GENI....I am focused on the related ness of Jane MERCER to the PERSON described as husband....He's not to be found....and that makes seem to me like a birth is being hidden.....I have an ANCESTOR with a huge marble tomb in TENBY and no visible way to pay for it since the Family she married into was threadbare after HENRY VIII decapitated the Scion's son Griffeth ap Rice 1508-1531. The MERCER in question would Jane Wilkerson's paramour one supposes. Just thinking outloud here....DCR

The ap Rhys story ends dramatically with the sale of all properties and the last grandson of PERROT ap Rice, James disappears about 1685....No means to place such a fine monument. The money came from the Mercer side according to Pembrokshire Journals online...As stated earlier, the story of how an illegitiamte person is inovlved with the family of Perrott is pointing in Margarets Direction....posible powerful connections. I f one looks at the 5000 relative of Jan Grey Mercer is boggles the mind. My suspicion is that Jane Wilkerson has the Child Margaret Merder ca1578-80 and the money comes from the Merchants of LONDON which the Locke's and Wilkersons represent....ergo the money for the tomb. That's my best insight at the moment fyi DCR 1948

YES, Perrott ap Rice is Perrot ap Rice Unknown Profile James ap Rice Dafydd ap Rhys, of Rickeston .

None that I can share Publically....where this is leading looks like a Rabbit Hole but there is no exit but demise & Ridicule, and I have no stomache for that....(well actually I do but the pun is too silly) Anyway....If it bares fruit I'll tell you privately...and the Mary B.---n that I found is after the Whalley connection to the Cromwells.....DCR 1948

W: I note with than passing interest in the 19 year gap in children born by Jane Wilkerson age 18 1550 for son Mathew Michael Locke and dauther by same father Agnes at age 37 1570. This span seems unusual for many reasons but her fertility was likely the same level in the mid-life periods so some other influance must have been at play in my view...The Family is associated with GRAYS Tavern later on. If it's not Jane Wilkinson her daughter would have been too young at age 10 to bare a child 1578 the earliest date I've seen for Margaret MERCER"S birth. FYI the Wilkerson's descend from Thomas Wilkerson 1445 & Mary Plantagenet 1449 Through Wm. W. 1477 and the other side of the family is the Mary Tudor of 1432 & Thomas Grey 1445 to Jane Grey 1475 & John Mercer 1477...Mary Tudor being the daughter of TACINDA? Regards DCR

Dale...I would say that there were other children in between (most likely)...but having a child at age 18, and still bearing children at age 37/38 would be well within the range of probablity....

Fay beat me to it.:)

It would be really helpful to see what I'm talking about with a profile, but a more usual situation is plenty of children between the ages of (say) 18 to (say) 38 ... Just not a lot of records, and much infant mortality.

W: Sorry, no post from you at 11:30 AM on my end. I can only guess there were no other children because the mortality would still be recorded yes? Anyway it struck me as odd. That's all...the rest of the relatives seem to have very regular spacing of a year off plus 9 months or 21.5 months between children....I don't make any assertion other than 19 years is a long time betwwen live births....www.//sharedtrees.com/person1315724 was the site I was on just FYI..DCR

Justin posted a link for Salome Alexandrea Queen of Judea ca -75.....some of this is starting sound so out of bounds....I don't know what to think...Geni says she, Salome Salome Alexandra, Queen of Judaea is my 59th Grandmother via the Churchills ofcourse.....The weight of history is taking an odd toll on my psyche........W: Im getting close to Margaret's Mother, I won't say here. DCR


We don't have a good tree for the Wilkerson / Locke / Mercer family on Geni, I agree; but not sure your link was a very good guide unfortunately.

I've gleaned a bit here, it's from the ODNB, a good secondary source, as quoted on the very good soc.gen.medieval group:



Michael Lok (c1532-c1621), mercer; youngest of the five sons of his father's second marriage; married c1562 Joan (d 1571) daughter of Sir
William Wilkinson, sheriff of London, by whom he had eight surviving
children; married secondly c1576 Margery (d c1582) widow of Cesar Adelmare; his son Benjamin was with him in Ireland in 1587; his eldest
sons, Zachary, Benjamin and Matthew predeceased him, all leaving
wills; his IPM 1623.


Presumably this Michael Lok is the same person as (the garbled) http://www.sharedtree.com/person/1315124

So far I do not see a verified mother for his wife http://www.sharedtree.com/person/1315125

From Wikipedia, Michael Lok's 1st wife Jane was the daughter of Joan North (d 1556) & William Wilkerson (d 1543)


FYI: the names listed on the Tomb at St. Mary's the Virgin Church in TENBY according to the Pembrokshire Journals on lines were: Ap Rice- Martin- Marlos- Bateman- Perrott- Vernay-LeValens-Roch-Mercer 22.

The person in Question is Margaret MERCER, but that name appears last.....Her Son Perrott ap Rice 1600 married Margaret Middleton and the Brother Captain John Rice also 1600 married Rebecca Howells........

The Ap Rice's of Rickerson were long standing near-nobility because of their connection to the TUDORS at Bosworth and were 3rd cousins....Henry VII never gave the patent to ap Rice because they are an ancient line going back to Cole HEN.....

The point here is they would not have likely had the funds for such a fine carved Marble tomb inside the Church because of Griffeth ap Rice's execution Jan 4, 1531 under his attainder as co-conspiritor. Manhy questions abound here. Erica: I did see the The Joan North reference but thought her too old to be in the mix.....Jane Wilkerson was dead 1571 and Margaret born earliest 1578.-1580. So it's in this mix of persons, I'll keep turning over the stones of the relatives....The silence around the Father is what's challenging me....DCR

Dale please link the "Margaret" you refer to b 1578

So you're looking for the parents of Margaret Mercer (b abt 1580), wife of Thomas ap Rice?

What relationship, if any, does this have to

Michael Locke, Merchant of London

Margaret Mercer Margaret Mercer is my posting and I marked her DOB as Ca 1580...The 1578 date came from another family site on line...I will see if I can find it for you....most likely the Pembrokshire journals online that I referenced on her About section. William Mercer has been changed to unknown since his only child was JOHN born 1568 too young to be her father in most cases....not impossible but not likely in my view. DCR

The Lockes and The Wilkersons are part of the Aural History that I have been working from since the beginning...variously described as THE MAYOR of London and provider of fine Clothes and Cloth to the KING. DCR

Showing 91-120 of 3037 posts

Create a free account or login to participate in this discussion