Richard FitzAlan, 8th Earl Arundel - checking node all MP total locked

Erica Howton I saw you doing miracles on old English stuff

Daughter’s usually have estimated birth dates, we might be able to figure a range based on Birth order.

An easy & often accurate site (with Citations) is the late Leo van de Pas - http://www.genealogics.org

He shows http://www.genealogics.org/getperson.php?personID=I00026727&tre...

http://www.genealogics.org/getperson.php?personID=I00015414&tre... Eleanor as b “about” 1284

http://www.genealogics.org/getperson.php?personID=I00191851&tre... Margaret no Birth date, but clearly before her parents died, yes ? So b aft 1284 (younger sister) before 1292

Douglas Richardson has published good studies, I believe, and they are cited here for example

http://our-royal-titled-noble-and-commoner-ancestors.com/p352.htm#i...

Debate and discussion would be found perhaps in the archives of soc.gen.medieval, but I don’t think it’s necessary to spelunk there, or Anne Brannen (medievalist) would have noted genealogy problems long since.

So let me just adjust the date ranges to help the member.

The links in profiles are outdated so working on better citations is always good.

Leo has a double dated marriage date for Alasia de Saluzzo

Married Nov 1281/1282

With a citation for that date in http://www.genealogics.org/getperson.php?personID=I00026726&tre...

List of Ancient Correspondence of the Chancery and Exchequer PRO List and Indexes 15 (1902) 485.
marriage date found by Douglas Richardson

So that may be findable online if someone was ambitious.

That double date of Nov 1281/1282 is interesting because it makes no sense to me. Double dates in January, February, and March make sense, because the medieval calendar changed in March. But November should just be in a year. Hmmm.

In general, we know people’s death dates, if they were important, and marriage dates, if they were important, but in England, until the church court records became the law, after the Middle Ages, we don’t have birth dates. So people estimate.

Hence me not worrying about it v

Thank you for the link Livio and Erica. No worries!...
It was just odd that most of the FitzAlans were under 12 years of age when they had their children. Plus Margaret didn't have a birth date.

I have noticed that most people didn't use to record the date of birth, but the church used to record the dates of Baptisms. Plus, back then, women could not register their children with the law or baptize a child without their husbands. They had to wait until their husbands will return from their work trips or wars.

It was very interesting to read. Thanks again!

Charla, baptisms were not recorded, usually, in the Middle Ages. It was England’s troubles in the Reformation that brought the changes in record keeping. It was not until 1538 that churches were made to keep the records you are thinking of, and even then, they didn’t, mostly, for some time.

Until then what we know we get from wills, and land documents, and church court documents, and secular court documents, and, when we are really really lucky, churchwardens’ accounts.

Ops! Sorry Anne,...Yes, you are right! ...Middle Ages!
I was thinking about later in the 1800s and 1900's...

A few years back when I was looking for my father in law's Baptism in Italy a priest told me that for hundreds of years women were not allowed to baptize their children without their husbands. So women had to wait for the husbands to return and that created confusion on the birth dates.
I forgot we were talking about the Middle Ages.
Please forgive me... This is all very interesting.
Thank you!

Re: That double date of Nov 1281/1282 ...

So maybe it’s not a double date, but a Regnal year.

http://people.albion.edu/imacinnes/calendar/Regnal_Years.html

Double years such as "1324/5" reflect Old Style dating (see note below).

Notes

1. Keep in mind that a monarch's last regnal year is cut short by death or deposition and may not include all dates.

2. Also, remember that while the so-called "Christian year" began on January 1, the legal year began on March 25. For example, January 1 in Elizabeth I's 1st regnal year occurred in the Christian year1559, but legally the year ...

I stand corrected !

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Regnal_years_of_English_monarchs#Re...

So the Marriage reference is 10 Edward I. The Regnal year start date was 20 November.

Some excellent tips here and thank you for sharing. Hope to connect with the group next time. The group helped me in correcting some dates re Margaret & Eleanor.

From: Private User

There seems to be a duplicate entry for Alisona “Alice” de Saluzzo AND her husband Richard Fitzalan 3rd/8th Earl of Arundel, who is also listed twice.

Alice of Saluzzo, Countess of Arundel

Alice of Saluzzo, Countess of Arundel

I came across trying to fix a consistency error I have with Alisona and a daughter Sybil de Fitzalan, wife of William "Lord of Warrington" le Boteler, 8th Baron of Warrington.

Only Sybil does not seem to be a child of this marriage. In fact, she does not seem to have been identified with her parents yet. Has this been resolved somewhere?

Added this citation to Sibilla & Sir William Boteler 8th Baron of Warrington

From http://cybergata.com/roots/3569.htm

The children of William Fitz Henry le Boteler and his wife Sibilla were:

William, his eldest, and the next Baron of Warrington
Mathew, who was given Crophill
Eda, who married William Trussell, a judge who on 29 Jan 1326, renounced, on behalf of the parliament, the nation's allegiance to Edward II.
Maud, married to Sir John Trussell
~The Annals of the Lords of Warrington, pp. 133-144, 159-160