Engelram de Alfreton - Sourcing & connecting ? Effort needed for this line

https://www.geni.com/discussions/158450?msg=1336302

Debbie Gambrell Wrote:

@ Engelram de Alfreton

and Engelram de Alfreton

are the same person. In the two trees some things are the same but one has more spouses, etc.

I discovered this when comparing my Alfretons in my tree on My Heritage to the profiles on Geni. I'm descended from Sir WIlliam Alfreton's daughter Isabel Orreby and his son Robert Alfreton and I noticed on Geni that Robert's line that goes to the Lathoms isn't connected on the tree I was tracing and I discovered him connected in the other tree.

Because these are the same people but with some differences in the trees, I would appreciate curator assistance in blending the two trees into one tree all descendants can correctly connect to.

Thanks in advance for assistance.

——

Here is the profile for

Isabella de Alfreton

She shows as daughter of William de Alfreton, Sheriff of Nottingham and Derby son of Ranulf de Alfreton, Sheriff of Nottingham and Derby son of Ingelram, Lord of Alfreton

Anne Brannen, Pam Wilson (may be slow to respond) and anyone else.

I’ll work on Isabel’s profile, but I hesitate above that.

Here’s a discussion with sources listed.

http://www.disnorge.no/slektsforum/viewtopic.php?p=62728

Here’s a cross discussion from the profile for Idonea de Blackwell

https://www.geni.com/discussions/189100?msg=1258306

It would seem that William Alfreton married twice and it is not recorded in Geni. His first wife being Helawise DeGlanville b 1148. William and Helawise had Alice 1170 and Robert 1174. William and Idonea had Isabella Alfreton Fitz William b1176 and Isabella married John De Orreby 1170-1257Knight of Lincolnshire. I do believe what is recorded is accurate through searches except this anomaly.

Ahhh, awesome work, Erica! That explains why I just found info on Wiki that Isabel and Robert were half-siblings but hadn't gotten any further. The two trees can correctly be pieced together now!

I just found this one after you supplied the name of the other wife. You've probably already seen it, but just sharing just in case you haven't.

William de Alfreton, Sheriff of Nottingham and Derby

This one has Robert connected.

So it seems that what remains is for the two profiles for William to be merged, connecting him to both wives and all his children.

I don’t want to merge until we have the profiles detailed and sourced. So let’s continue to get the sourcing done.

I just found a hint that confirms Isabel / Isabel as daughter but dates are still hinky, and what is this profile?

Nicholas FitzWilliam

I don't know anything about Nicholas. I was just working on my direct ancestors and ran into the Isabel and Robert issues, so Nicholas hadn't come into it until now.

I can't find anything concrete about Isabel either, just the Wiki profile that only sources from someone's personal tree and an unsourced Find-a-Grave profile.

So don’t worry about him; worry about Idabel. Because this source says she’s fitz RANULF, not fitz William.

https://worldconnect.rootsweb.ancestry.com/cgi-bin/igm.cgi?op=GET&a...

And https://worldconnect.rootsweb.ancestry.com/cgi-bin/igm.cgi?op=GET&a...

Herbart and Agnes had a large family. The eldest son and heir was John de Orreby of Orby, Fenton, Ingoldmels. He confirmed his parents' gifts to Bardney and Bullington. He married Idabel, daughter and co-heiress of William, son of Ranulf by his wife, Idonea de Blackwell. She confirmed to Welbeck Abbey her parent's gifts of lands in Bilby, Notts, and Blackwell, Derbys.

Hint: look by the husband and the property. Now that we know what estates she brought to the Marriage you can try British History Online for the manors.

This link (book) has totally different connections but does show an Isabella married to an Orreby but she is the daughter of Robert who was a brother of William.

https://books.google.com/books?id=X6U1AAAAMAAJ&pg=PA194&lpg...

That tree shows no children for WIlliam and Idonea Blackwell.

But it also doesn't show him with another wife and chldren by her either. ?

https://www.british-history.ac.uk/thoroton-notts/vol3/pp446-447

This from the above link at British History contradicts the genealogy in that book:

Isabella, the daughter of William Fitz-Ranulf, sometime wife of John de Orreby, gave and confirmed to the canons of Wellebec the mill of Bileby, which William Fitz-Ranulf her father, gave, with his body there to be buried, and the moyety of the mill of Blackwell, which Idonea her mother gave to the said canons, with her body there to be buried also.

Excellent catch, the source is showing Isabella as daughter of ROBERT fitz Ranulf (William’s brother) by an unnamed wife.

The article is from The Reliquary and Illustrated Archaeologist,: A Quarterly Journal ..., Volume 7 which looks circa 1890.

So - look for the children of Robert.

I'm changing her father's name to WIlliam FitzRanulf de Alfreton in my personal tree on My Heritage since he is found by one or the other of those surnames, depending on the source. Those ancient folks sure knew how to confuse us descendants!

The book listing Isabel as Robert's daughter contradicts the info on the British History site.

Your next step is to confirm the Orreby children of Isabel, and also, see if you can get better dating than b c 1175 & locations.

I think we should worry about putting Robert fitz Ranulf & William fitz Ranulf back together as brothers.

Great article on Robert but no daughter Isabel mentioned:

https://www.british-history.ac.uk/vch/derbs/vol2/pp63-69

Erica, I'm of the mind that the lineage showing Isabel as daughter of Robert is wrong. I mean, I've seen mistakes in genealogy books before. The information on the British History site is more detailed and sourced. That would put us back to Isabel and Robert being half-siblings, each a child of William by one of his two wives. That also explains Isabel being listed as FitzRanulf since British History shows her father William using FitzRanulf instead of Alfreton as the surname, and that's because his father's first name was Ranulf, so FitzRanulf de Alfreton, so to speak.

I can't find any source other than that book showing Isabel as Robert's daughter and WIlliam's niece. But she is well-sourced on the British History site in the manner in which you had placed her as daughter of WIlliam and wife Idonea Blackwell.

I only have Margaret Orreby Willoughby in my tree as a child of Isabel and John because she's my direct line. But I've seen a brother John listed online.

I have WiIliam FitzRanulf de Alfreton b. 1145 and wife Idonea born 1152.

I have John Orreby born c. 1170 m. Isabel Alfreton — married 1197 and he died 1257. I don't currently have any dates on Isabel.

I have Margaret born c. 1210, married Robert Willoughby 1230 and died 1245.

I guess I've worn out my welcome. I'm now getting this message;

Subscribe to British History Online
The content you are trying to access is premium content.

So add the children notes to Isabel’s profile.

Do we have a link to the CORRECT Robert fitz Ranulf to potentially move him over as William fitz Ranulf’s brother?

So far, all I can find indicating Margaret Orreby's parents is this unsourced reference:
https://www.wikitree.com/wiki/Orreby-5

And this unsourced Find-a-Grave profile:
https://www.findagrave.com/memorial/49435210/alice-margaret-willoughby

Let me do what I can on the connections and I'll ask you for help if I run into a problem.

Ok, I've merged the two Williams, blending the two families. Here is that link:

William de Alfreton, Sheriff of Nottingham and Derby