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https://www.geni.com/discussions/158450?msg=1336302
Debbie Gambrell Wrote:
@ Engelram de Alfreton
and Engelram de Alfreton
are the same person. In the two trees some things are the same but one has more spouses, etc.
I discovered this when comparing my Alfretons in my tree on My Heritage to the profiles on Geni. I'm descended from Sir WIlliam Alfreton's daughter Isabel Orreby and his son Robert Alfreton and I noticed on Geni that Robert's line that goes to the Lathoms isn't connected on the tree I was tracing and I discovered him connected in the other tree.
Because these are the same people but with some differences in the trees, I would appreciate curator assistance in blending the two trees into one tree all descendants can correctly connect to.
Thanks in advance for assistance.
——
Here is the profile for
She shows as daughter of William de Alfreton, Sheriff of Nottingham and Derby son of Ranulf de Alfreton, Sheriff of Nottingham and Derby son of Ingelram, Lord of Alfreton
Anne Brannen, Pam Wilson (may be slow to respond) and anyone else.
I’ll work on Isabel’s profile, but I hesitate above that.
Here’s a cross discussion from the profile for Idonea de Blackwell
https://www.geni.com/discussions/189100?msg=1258306
It would seem that William Alfreton married twice and it is not recorded in Geni. His first wife being Helawise DeGlanville b 1148. William and Helawise had Alice 1170 and Robert 1174. William and Idonea had Isabella Alfreton Fitz William b1176 and Isabella married John De Orreby 1170-1257Knight of Lincolnshire. I do believe what is recorded is accurate through searches except this anomaly.
I just found this one after you supplied the name of the other wife. You've probably already seen it, but just sharing just in case you haven't.
William de Alfreton, Sheriff of Nottingham and Derby
This one has Robert connected.
So don’t worry about him; worry about Idabel. Because this source says she’s fitz RANULF, not fitz William.
https://worldconnect.rootsweb.ancestry.com/cgi-bin/igm.cgi?op=GET&a...
And https://worldconnect.rootsweb.ancestry.com/cgi-bin/igm.cgi?op=GET&a...
Herbart and Agnes had a large family. The eldest son and heir was John de Orreby of Orby, Fenton, Ingoldmels. He confirmed his parents' gifts to Bardney and Bullington. He married Idabel, daughter and co-heiress of William, son of Ranulf by his wife, Idonea de Blackwell. She confirmed to Welbeck Abbey her parent's gifts of lands in Bilby, Notts, and Blackwell, Derbys.
This link (book) has totally different connections but does show an Isabella married to an Orreby but she is the daughter of Robert who was a brother of William.
https://books.google.com/books?id=X6U1AAAAMAAJ&pg=PA194&lpg...
This from the above link at British History contradicts the genealogy in that book:
Isabella, the daughter of William Fitz-Ranulf, sometime wife of John de Orreby, gave and confirmed to the canons of Wellebec the mill of Bileby, which William Fitz-Ranulf her father, gave, with his body there to be buried, and the moyety of the mill of Blackwell, which Idonea her mother gave to the said canons, with her body there to be buried also.
Great article on Robert but no daughter Isabel mentioned:
https://www.british-history.ac.uk/vch/derbs/vol2/pp63-69
Erica, I'm of the mind that the lineage showing Isabel as daughter of Robert is wrong. I mean, I've seen mistakes in genealogy books before. The information on the British History site is more detailed and sourced. That would put us back to Isabel and Robert being half-siblings, each a child of William by one of his two wives. That also explains Isabel being listed as FitzRanulf since British History shows her father William using FitzRanulf instead of Alfreton as the surname, and that's because his father's first name was Ranulf, so FitzRanulf de Alfreton, so to speak.
I can't find any source other than that book showing Isabel as Robert's daughter and WIlliam's niece. But she is well-sourced on the British History site in the manner in which you had placed her as daughter of WIlliam and wife Idonea Blackwell.
I only have Margaret Orreby Willoughby in my tree as a child of Isabel and John because she's my direct line. But I've seen a brother John listed online.
I have WiIliam FitzRanulf de Alfreton b. 1145 and wife Idonea born 1152.
I have John Orreby born c. 1170 m. Isabel Alfreton — married 1197 and he died 1257. I don't currently have any dates on Isabel.
I have Margaret born c. 1210, married Robert Willoughby 1230 and died 1245.
So far, all I can find indicating Margaret Orreby's parents is this unsourced reference:
https://www.wikitree.com/wiki/Orreby-5
And this unsourced Find-a-Grave profile:
https://www.findagrave.com/memorial/49435210/alice-margaret-willoughby
Ok, I've merged the two Williams, blending the two families. Here is that link:
William de Alfreton, Sheriff of Nottingham and Derby