Marione Clerksone - TWO MARIONE CLERKSONE - born 1621, and born 1617 to same parents

i have discovered another profile
Marione Clerksone, primus

but, i will NOT merge them yet

as, i will NOW identify the '2' marione's

Curator question:

This profile for marione - should it be
1621, or 1617

and, there is a 2nd sister also marione
but; i can only find birth records
1621, or 1617

what is the proper way to handle this ?

Without justification, or explanation, you have identified Marione Clerksone, the wife of William Ruthven, Writer in Edinburgh, as the daughter of Andrew Clerksone and Jonet Wat, but this is not possible. Please check the relevant dates!

Can I remind you that you cannot construct a pedigree using baptismal records on their own. I have tried to explain this to you on a number of occasions, but it seems that you do not understand this, either that or you are unwilling to accept my advice.

RUTHVEN
MARGARET
WILLIAME RUTHVEN/MARIONE CLERKSONE FR469 (FR469)
F
16/08/1618
685/1
20 226
Edinburgh
https://www.scotlandspeople.gov.uk/record-results?page=9&se......

i also recall this couple too:

RUTHVEN
MARION
JOHN RUTHVEN/MARY HENDERSON
F
13/05/1750
644/1
120 207
Glasgow

Marie Clerksone (1628)
Privacy Level: Open (White)
Marie Clerksone
Born 18 Sep 1628 in Edinburgh, Midlothian, Scotlandmap
ANCESTORS ancestors
Daughter of Andrew Clerksone and Jonat Janet Watt
Sister of Alexander Clerksone, Agnes Clerksone, Thomas Clerksone, Margaret Clerksone, Andrew Clerksone, Marione Clerksone, Sara Clerksone, Johnne Clerksone, James Shaw Clerksone, Agnes Clerksone and Williame Clerksone
[spouse(s) unknown]
[children unknown]
Died [date unknown] [location unknown]
Profile last modified 22 Jan 2020

NOTES BY NEAL: WILLIAM ALEXANDER RUTHVEN was born on month day 1613, at birth place, to William Ruthven and Marion Ruthven (born Clerksone). William was born in 1566, in Gowrie, Perth, Perth and Kinross, Scotland. Marion was born circa 1590, in Edinburgh Parish, Edinburgh, Midlothian, Scotland. William was baptized on month day 1613, at baptism place. He had 4 siblings: Bessie Ruthven and 3 other siblings. William married Isobel or Isoble Reid - Ruthven. Isobel was born on November 16 1626, in Montrose, Angus, Scotland, United Kingdom.They had 4 children: George John (Reid) Ruthven and 3 other children. William lived at address.WILLIAM PASSED AWAY ON MONTH DAY 1674, AT AGE 60 AT DEATH PLACE VIRGINIA. HE WAS BURIED AT BURIAL PLACE, VIRGINIA. MyHeritage

Erica Howton

@John Ruthven, Music Master in Glasgow - there is approx. 50 documents; I paid to download
related to this Ruthven tree - it might be important to know, that in around 1800 - more than 80% of the Ruthven family; was in Ontario, Canada !!!

Dear Lynn,

I cannot take credit for the notes you posted yesterday. It is a copy of a pedigree published by MyHeritage which claims that Marione Clerksone was born in Edinburgh in about 1590. You omitted the link from your post. It follows now:

https://www.myheritage.com/names/william_ruthven

Neil

Deat Lynn,

Let me remind you. Marione Clerksone married William Ruthven, writer in Edinburgh, and they had seven children whose baptisms were registered there during the period between 1605 and 1621.

As I understand it, you believe that William Ruthven's wife is the daughter of Andrew Clerksone and Jonet Wot. This is wrong.

I have pointed this out to you before but please take notice of the following now. This couple had two daughters named Marione. The first probably died young but the second Marione was baptised at Edinburgh 20 March 1621. It is impossible, however, for a child who was born in 1621 to be the mother of children who were born during the years 1605-21. Would you not agree?

Neil

I guess; my confusion stems from

why do scots perage (sp?)
accept the Ruthven papers

and, here on geni.com
you do NOT

so; what information exactly is lacking

is there anything in the 4 john ruthven;'s
(one recently found
is a ruthvN, and, another a riven)
I found research that clearly states riven is Ruthven

I've asked quite a few times

what do I need to find proof for
related to connecting
KNIGHT RUTHVEN
back to John Ruthven ?
how many generations are we trying to find ?

thank you
susan

I think part of the confusions
from other sites - is the name in brackets

ie; john (peadie) Ruthven
-that meant that particular john Ruthven
his mother was a peadie

then; the next question
is it possible to get someone to remove the data
from heritage that is NOT correct ?
and; if so; do you have a link to the incorrect data ?

is there any point to paying for this one:

PEEDIE
MARGRAT
-----

F
29/09/1748
461/
10 509
Fossoway and Tulliebole

a death record

The only NOTES I published
were stuff that came from scots - like https://www.scotlandspeople.gov.uk/record-results ???

can you give me a link to this heritage site;
where the wrong records are ?

Dear Lynne,

I am finding it very difficult to follow your posts. You started a discussion about Two Marione Clerksone, which I tried to contribute to, but you have now raised a number of question unconnected with her, Let me try to answer them.

1. I may not be reading the Scots Peerage account of the Ruthven, Earls of Gowrie, but I cannot see any mention of the Ruthven papers in it. If you can find one please point it out to me.

https://archive.org/details/scotspeeragefoun04paul/page/254/mode/1up

Are you referring to The Ruthven Family Papers or are you thinking of something else?

https://archive.org/details/ruthvenfamilypap00cowauoft/page/n8/mode...

2. As far as I am aware the 4 John Ruthvens are all represented on Geni.

3. I am not sure who KNIGHT RUTHVEN is. If you can tell me maybe I can answer your question?

4. I am not sure how what to do about MtHeritage. All I can tell you is that they publish a whole load of pedigrees that have their roots in wishful thinking of their subscribers.

5. I can not tell you if there is any point in paying to view the baptismal record of the Margrat Peedie mentioned by you. Who do you think she is, and what would it help you achieve if you did?

2.
have you determined how the JOHN RiVEN one,
fits into the mix;
does it prove that one of the 4 john's is the right gowrie one,
great grandson of lord Ruthven ?

when you say there are 4
- exactly which 4 are you referring to

is the reason this profile @John Ruthven, Music Master in Glasgow does NOT include a DOB, is because we have NOT yet determine which JOHN is which JOHN ???

AND, have you determined this is the right
Marion Peadie which a proper birth date ?

thank you

1. THE RUTHVEN PAPERS
https://deriv.nls.uk/dcn23/9525/95255930.23.pdf
PAGE 170, JOHN RUTHVEN - born 1687

RUTHVEN
JOHN
GEORGE RUTHVEN/ELSPET HUTCHESONE FR506 (FR506)
M
04/05/1688
488/
20 5
St Ninians

I have NOT paid to get a copy of this one

in deaths, I found:

RUTHVN
JAMES

JOHN RUTHVN
1
M
09/11/1759
644/1
480 46
Glasgow

I have NOT paid to get a copy of this one

i'm trying to find
where I saw born in dec 1687,
chris 1688 (you said, just a chris. record isn't enough)

We cannot identify a date of birth for John Ruthven, music master in Glasgow, until we have identified the name of his father and mother.

Marion Peadie was the daughter of James Peadie merchant in Glasgow https://archive.org/details/scottishrecordso43scotuoft/page/384/mod... but a date of birth has not been identified for her in Glasgow.

This may mean that the Glasgow registers are defective, or it may mean that she was born elsewhere. The Ruthven Family Papers say that she and Joh Ruthven were married at Eastwood in Renfrewshire. This suggests that this may have been her home parish but there is no record of her birth or her marriage in that parish. The suggested connection with Eastwood may never-the-less be a real one, for her daughter Anne Ruthven married the Reverend Robert Wodrow, Minister pf the Gospel there.

SOMETHING that might be helpful here

OUR FAMILY RECORDS showed the name as CLERK ?

AND, THERE is a number of records on scots

CLERK
MARIONE
ALEXANDER CLERK/ANNA WINRAME FR955 (FR955)
F
17/03/1631
685/1
40 38
Edinburgh
View image (6 credits)

CLERK
MARIONE
GEORG CLERK/
F
30/10/1620
722/
10 44
Tranent
View image (6 credits)

CLERK
MARIONE
JAMS CLERK/JEANE HOUSTINE FR324 (FR324)
F
05/01/1656
709/
10 307
Haddington
View image (6 credits)

CLERK
MARIONE
JOHNNE CLERK/JONET RANKIN FR1048 (FR1048)
F
19/09/1634
685/1
40 225
Edinburgh
View image (6 credits)

CLERK
MARIONE
JAMES CLERK/JONET WILKIE FR1097 (FR1097)
F
03/07/1636
685/1
40 321
Edinburgh
View image (6 credits)

CLERK
MARIONE
MITCHEL CLERK/MARIONE CRAIG FR823 (FR823)
F
20/04/1628
685/1
30 226
Edinburgh
View image (6 credits)

CLERK
MARIONE
ROT. CLERK/JANET WRYGHT FR85 (FR85)
F
20/06/1629
466/
10 91
Clackmannan
View image (6 credits)

CLERK
MARIONE
EDWARD CLERK/MARION CORSER FR585 (FR585)
F
19/07/1661
685/2
30 44
St Cuthbert's
View image (6 credits)

CLERK
MARIONE
/EASTHER CLERK FR810 (FR810)
F
26/12/1627
685/1
30 213
Edinburgh
View image (6 credits)

CLERK
MARIONE
JAMES CLERK/
F
09/10/1661
648/
10 105
Lanark
View image (6 credits)

CLERK
MARIONE
JAMES CLERK/JEANE HOWSTINE FR273 (FR273)

Do not pay to view

RUTHVEN
JOHN
GEORGE RUTHVEN/ELSPET HUTCHESONE FR506 (FR506)
M
04/05/1688
488/
20 5
St Ninians

You can view it at John Ruthven

Do not pay to view

RUTHVN
JAMES
JOHN RUTHVN
1
M
09/11/1759
644/1
480 46
Glasgow

It can be viewed at James Ruthven

I do not want to curb your enthusiasm (You have been trying to find a baptismal record for Marione Clerk or Clerksone) but it would be wrong of me not to remind you again.

You cannot hope to identify a baptismal record until you known the name of the father and mother, or the father, or until you have some other piece of information that uniquely identifies the person whose baptismal record you are looking for. Even then it may not be possible, as is the case with Marion Peadie.

As you are aware, we know the name of her father but we cannot find a baptismal record for his daughter. The question of her ancestry is further complicated by the fact that we cannot connect her father with any of the other men named James Peadie who were active in Glasgow in the years before his daughter's marriage to John Ruthven. Evidence which allows his ancestry to be progressed mat eventually be found but until it is found there is nothing we can do.

I think I just found it under a spelling mistake

also; the knight was sir William Ruthven, kt ?
The trees went thru 101 changes; prior to you (NEAL) showing up
people changing stuff - CRAZY stuff (THANKFULLY; lock down of profiles, stop that)

it goes into things like Sinclair, reid/read, hutcheson/hutchesone, clerk/clerkson/clerksone and, i'll need to think of other

let me post in a few unique ones I find

thank you - susan