John Done, of Flaxyards - Missing link - John Donne, of Flaxyordes, Esq., lord of Kelsall ?

Sharon Doubell

This lineage
John Done, of Flaxyards, lord of Kelsall, Esq.
Ralph Done of Flaxyards
is given according to Visitation of Cheshire:
https://archive.org/stream/visitationchesh00fellgoog#page/n101/mode...

There is another source for the Done of Utkington/Flaxyards, Ormerod's History of the County Palatine and City of Chester, pp. 248 - 249:
https://books.google.ru/books?id=dIY1AQAAMAAJ&q=Donne+Flaxyorde...

John Done, of Flaxyordes, Esq., lord of Kelsall is given here as the son of John Done, of Flaxyards, lord of Kelsall, Esq. and the father of Ralph Done of Flaxyards.

Looks like John Done, of Flaxyordes, Esq., lord of Kelsall is the missing link in the Visitation of Cheshire.
The inclusion of this link in line with the Ormerod's History of Cheshire gives a more realistic dates of birth and death for these people:
John Done, of Flaxyards, lord of Kelsall, Esq. - *? + 1467 (7 Edw. 4.)
John Done, of Flaxyordes, Esq., lord of Kelsall - *1461 (aet. 21 22 Edw. 4.) +1509 (IPM 24 Hen. 7.)
Ralph Done of Flaxyards - *1483 (aet. 26 24 Hen. 7) +1553/54 (IPM 1 and 2 Phil. et Mar.)

Okay - Looks likely - I don't have a lot of time to get acquainted with those.- so let me know if you need me to do something. eg Do you want the two Johns merged despite the dates, or have you successfully inserted an extra generation?

Or do you want me to insert the generation?

It looks like John Done, of Flaxyordes, Esq., lord of Kelsall should be inserted between John Done, of Flaxyards, lord of Kelsall, Esq. and Ralph Done of Flaxyards

Also, the dates for John Done, of Flaxyards, lord of Kelsall, Esq. and Ralph Done of Flaxyards need to be corrected as I indicated above.
All sources are attached.

Okay - check now. I've added you as manager to them. Can you update?

Done for John Done, of Flaxyards, lord of Kelsall, Esq.
Please add me as a manager for Ralph Done of Flaxyards

Sorry - I have to get myself added as a manager first, and hadn't realised both the present managers are inactive. ...

Okay, Done :-)

Please update their Abouts with your sources

Updated
John Done, of Flaxyards, lord of Kelsall, Esq.
John Done, of Flaxyordes, Esq., lord of Kelsall
Ralph Done of Flaxyards

It would be nice to lock down the date fields.

Interesting, this family -- looks like they've actually used a surname, with the English spelling, going back to the 13th century. That makes no sense. They're on the border, sure, but Donne? in the 13th century?

They don't appear in the Welsh Genealogies, not under these names.

But I'm intrigued. Will see if I can track them down in the earlier generations.

Maybe this will help:

The first of the Dones who possessed Utkinton, under the barons of Kinderton, was Richard Done, living in the reign of king John. The precise period of the grant from this family to the Dones is unknown but the arms of Done give tolerably decisive evidence as to the connexion between the mediate and superior lords of Utkinton being the baronial coat of Venables varied with a bend, the difference adopted by the acknowledged younger branches in the House of Kinderton, and by a further addition of three arrows in allusion to their office of [Hereditary Chief] Forester which was obtained in marriage with Joanna de Kingsley by Henry son of Richard Done before mentioned.
https://books.google.ru/books?id=dIY1AQAAMAAJ&pg=RA1-PA243#v=on...

Heering Ahnenforschung -- thanks! But it still doesn't explain why they are using a surname, spelled in English fashion (it's Dwnn in Welsh, which is where it comes from).

So am still going to be trying to figure that out.

It means "dark brown," by the way; in the Welsh usage it's a nickname, which became (in most families that use it) a surname in the 16th century, when the Welsh were forced to create surnames. In general, some ancestor has the nickname Dwnn.

but except among the families that married into the Marcher lords, surnames weren't used in Wales until then.

So this is an extremely early usage. Extremely.

https://archive.org/details/visitationofches00glov/page/82/mode/2up

No info as to the usage of the name that early, but thanks!

Ha! Alice Done, the daughter of Sir John Done of Utkinton and Elizabeth Butlet, married Iddon ap Rhys Sais —

https://www.google.com/books/edition/A_Genealogical_and_Heraldic_Hi...

and that would have been the late 12th century. So at that time they were still close to their Welsh roots.

Still looking.

Interesting - I didn't realise its etymomolgy was 'dun'

Odd that Bartrum would omit that: https://cadair.aber.ac.uk/dspace/bitstream/handle/2160/4812/Tudur%2...

Anne Brannen , it looks like the Dones of Utkinton may not be of Welsh descent.

As I quoted above, considering the coat of arms, Ormerod suggested that the Dones of Utkinton were a junior branch of the Venables, Barons of Kinderton. Venables are considered Norman in origin.
Venables bore Azure, two bars Argent. Dones of Utkinton bore the same arms with a bend Gules as a cadence mark. The bend was also charged with three arrows.
I think it is also possible that Done's male line was of Welsh descent, but they adopted Venables' arms from the maternal line with some property.

The "tricks" with the Venables arms are well depicted here:
https://drive.google.com/file/d/1rowQftHK5MaS9v0s_ziAj-NRHrTFT2Hk/view
taken from here:
https://www.tonybostock.com/home/heraldry-articles

There is also speculation about the origin of the Done surname:

"Another family that bore a differenced form of the Venables arms is that of Done: Azure, two bars Argent on a bend Gules three arrows Argent. Done is a lost place-name in the Tarporley area of mid-Cheshire which lay within the bounds of the medieval forest of Mara (Delamere) and may in fact be the area now known as Utkinton. It is also the name of a manor mentioned in the Domesday Survey as being part of the earl of Chester’s demesne."

Also, as per Ormerod, this is the earliest mention of Donne's surname:

"An early bearer of this name William Donne occurs as a witness to a charter of William Venables (I. 337.) with others of the Venables family, in 1188 and strengthens thereby the probability of the conjecture as to the early connection between the houses of Venables and Done. Ormerod's Additions Vol iii 446 "

In any case, the Dones intermarried with Welsh and Cambro-Normans:

"John Salusbury of Bachymbyd, Esq., was the fourth son (by Elizabeth his wife, daughter of Jenkyn Done of Utkinton in Cheshire, son of Sir John Done, Knight) of Thomas Salusbury of Llyweni, Esq., &c"
https://archive.org/details/historyprincesl07lloygoog/page/n39/mode...

"David Myddleton Hen, Receiver General for North Wales to Edward IV =
Elin, d. of Sir John Done ab Sir Jenkin Donne of Utkinton, co. Chester."
https://archive.org/details/historyprincesl07lloygoog/page/n255/mod...

"Morgan Brodghton of Plas Isaf in Marchwiail, was the second son of lorwerth Goch ab Ednyfed ab Madog ab Gruffudd Ddu of Broughton, ab Gruffudd Goch ab Llywelyn Goch ab Ednyved Grflg ab Tudor ab Ednyved, Lord of Broughton (who bore ermine, a lion stataot gardant gules, armed and langued axure), the second son of Cynwrig ab Rhiwallawn, Lord of Maelor Gymraeg. He married Margaret, daughter of John Don ab Robert ab Sir Richard Don of Utkinton in Cheshire, Knight, &c"
https://archive.org/details/historyprincesl00lloygoog/page/n400/mod...

There is a poem mentioning Thomas Salysbury, of Llyweni and Elizabeth Done:
"Moliant i Domas Salbri ap Harri Salbri o Leweni a’i dylwyth"
http://www.gutorglyn.net/gutorglyn/poem/?poem-selection=71

19 y ddwy nasiwn ‘The two nations’, Wales and England. Tomas was probably considered a Welshman and his wife, Elsbeth, an Englishwoman.

29 wyrion Siancyn Dôn ‘Siancyn Dôn’s grandchildren’. Guto is referring to Tomas and Elsbeth’s ten children (see 49n). Elsbeth, Tomas’s wife, was a daughter of Siancyn Dôn ap Syr Siôn Dôn of Utkinton in Cheshire. The surname Dôn is named in poems by Lewys Môn, Ieuan Llwyd Brydydd, Lewys Glyn Cothi, Gutun Owain, Huw ap Dafydd ap Llywelyn and Tudur Aled, and in some cases the cynghanedd or rhyme shows that the name should be accentuated (see GLM 548; GILlF 10.56; GLGC 222.53; GO LVIII.10; GHD 11.7; TA V.5 and the note on pages 558–9).

Got it. I found the entries in the Welsh genealogies.

This will be a lot of fun.

It’s telling that there is no Donne tree in the Welsh Genealogies. Various Donnes appear scattered through other trees.

I’ve added in some connections.

And I believe I’ve answered my original question. This is one of the families that married into the Anglo-Norman families, and took a surname early on. Because they don’t have their own tree I can’t say (at the moment) how they came to that surname — in other words, which ancestor had the nickname of Dwnn. But he’s back there somewhere.

Thanks!

Ah, I see what you are saying above -- that the Done has come in from another source; that also would make sense, BUT it's such a coincidence, then, that the family marries into the Welsh over and over and over through some centuries. We usually see that happening with families that were originally Welsh.

Hi, I'm wondering why Ralph Done, date of birth is entered as 1483 when all of his children were born in the 1480s. His wife Ellena was born 1460. There is a Ralph Done recorded on FamilySearch in a standalone tree as being born 1461 (dont know what their source was). This would mean that he was 93 when he died but not unheard of. That would also mean the the extra generation added between him and Robert Done is not needed, and the records in the Visitation of Cheshire and The History of the County Paletine can stand.
Ralph Done of Flaxyards

The dates for Ralph Done of Flaxyards are quoted according to this:
https://books.google.ru/books?id=dIY1AQAAMAAJ&pg=RA1-PA249#v=on...
This source does not contain the date of birth of his wife, Ellena. Also this source does not include the dates of birth of his children.
The visitation of Cheshire does not include dates.
At the moment, I don't know of any other sources with dates for the Donnes.
Most likely, this branch requires careful consideration in order to remove fake dates.