Baroness Attilda de Perregrino (de Sveva) - Question about her father

Bernard Joseph Albanese Excuse my French but your sources are crap. Malta Genealogy is a known fraud full of invented people and connections. The Czech site is widely used and has a bibliography - of other internet sites.

So starting with Wikipedia, then the Italian page, and also German, we find that Konradin certainly had no known daughters and did have an out of wedlock son, died 1269 along with his Italian mother, at Lucerna. If he had had a child she could have had family in play to inherit, don’t you think?

I cannot find reference to her husband so far, but am wondering how a woman born before 1269 could be married to the son of a man who lived a century later.

(son of Gerrardo de Perregrino, Capitano della Malta 1348-1350)

References

https://www.treccani.it/enciclopedia/corrado-iv-re-dei-romani-di-si...

Before his death C. IV had named in a will, handed down only in fragments, his two-year-old son Corrado, known as Corradino, born from his marriage with Elisabetta di Baviera his successor, entrusting him to the protection of the Church. But the child had not yet been elected king. The only thing that C. IV had been able to obtain before his death was the promise of the Swabian nobles to recognize Corradino as Duke of Swabia. In addition to Corradino, C. IV had had, from a relationship with an Italian, a son, also named Corrado, who was killed in 1269 after the conquest of Lucera by the Anjou. With that the Hohenstaufen became extinct.

Schaller, Hans Martin, "Konrad IV." in: Neue Deutsche Biographie 12 (1980), pp. 500-501 [online version]; URL: https://www.deutsche-biographie.de/pnd118565087.html#ndbcontent

Try this site re Perregrino data.

https://translate.google.com/translate?hl=en&sl=it&u=http:/...

This site tells the story of a secret child (male) by a mermaid and the 16 year old last Conrad, whose child bride was Sophie. Geni is cited. :)

https://translate.google.com/translate?hl=en&sl=it&u=https:...

http://fmg.ac/Projects/MedLands/GERMANY,%20Kings.htm#KonradIVGerman...

Mistress (1): ---. The name of King Konrad's mistress is not known. Benoist-Méchin says that she was a Sarracin from Lucera but does not cite the corresponding primary source[703].

b) KONRADIN (Lucera [1252]-hanged Lucera 1269). The primary source which confirms his parentage has not yet been identified. He was captured by Charles I King of Sicily [Anjou-Capet] at the siege of Lucera.

—-

Italian Wikipedia had given legit Konrad a second wife. Medlands shows

King Konrad & his wife had one son:

a) KONRAD "Konradin" (Burg Wolfstein, Isar 25 Mar 1252-beheaded Naples, Piazza del Mercato 29 Oct 1268, bur Naples, Santa Maria del Carmino). The Altahenses Annales record the birth "1252 in die annuntiationis sancta Marie" of "Chunrado regi filius…Chunradus"[704]. Duke of Swabia 1254. He succeeded his father in 1254 as CORRADO II King of Sicily and titular King of Jerusalem, under the regency of Berthold Markgraf von Hohenburg, although Konradin remained in Germany with his mother. Pope Innocent IV named Edward of England, son of Henry III King of England, as king of Sicily, but Konradin's uncle Manfred forced the papacy to recognise Konradin's rights and his own appointment as regent[705]. Konradin was deposed by his uncle in 1258. He gathered together an army with Friedrich of Austria Markgraf von Baden to invade Italy and reclaim his inheritance. He was defeated and captured by Charles I King of Sicily [Anjou-Capet] 23 Aug 1268 at Tagliacozzo, Abruzzi, imprisoned in the Castel del Ovo, Naples, and beheaded in the Market Square of Naples. Betrothed to SOPHIA von Meissen, daughter of DIETRICH "der Weise" von Meissen im Osterland, Landsberg und Groitzsch & his wife Helene von Brandenburg ([1258/61]-24 Aug 1318). The Chronica principum Polonie records that "Conrado Stynnaviensi" married secondly "filiam…Theoderici marchionis orientalis, relicta quondam Conradi nepotis Fridrici imperatoris, Conradi filii"[706].

I wondered what a “Sarracin from Lucera” might be.

In 1245, Muslim Sicilians were deported to the settlement of Lucera, by order of Holy Roman Emperor Frederick II.[7] In 1300, Giovanni Pipino da Barletta, count of Altamura, seized Lucera and exiled or sold into slavery its population, bringing an end to the medieval Muslim presence in Italy.[8]

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/History_of_Islam_in_southern_Italy

This would imply Attilda = Matilda and was a secret daughter of the legit king:

https://translate.google.com/translate?hl=en&sl=it&u=https:...

But Ciummo, Holy Roman Emperor, Duke of Swabia, King of Jerusalem, Prince of Naples and Sicily lived and lives his descendants. Certainly not in the blood of the Filangieri, but in secret, you certainly do not belong to the Filangieri Candida dynasty, but the son of a Candida who wanted to remain anonymous and whose name we managed to identify only by chance, following an intense search.

Matilda.

Discussion of the Perrigrino family (later) on Page 7

https://www.um.edu.mt/library/oar/bitstream/123456789/48923/1/The_h...

Erica Howton;

Thank you for responding so quickly and thoroughly.

Unfortunately, the most reliable source, Medlands does not mention the names of any children of either Konrad or the illegitimate, Konradin.

I find the other references to be not convincing, one way or another. The source with the mermaid reference, did not mention that Conrad IV had two sons. Perhaps he got the two confused, since they had essentially the same name. I found it confusing.

Bottom line is that if your opinion is that Attilda should remain as the daughter of Konrad, I will respect that opinion. I would suggest that we should add to the "about" section, that some sources have her as the daughter of Konradin.

She’s under sourced and I’m really concerned about the marriage / descent. Let’s talk the logic of whom is more likely parent.

First, I want to thank you for finding the illegitimate son. Can you develop the profile?

The last King was very young (and beautiful in all ways, apparently); his execution was shocking. Can we get this Latin translated?

“ Betrothed to SOPHIA von Meissen, daughter of DIETRICH "der Weise" von Meissen im Osterland, Landsberg und Groitzsch & his wife Helene von Brandenburg ([1258/61]-24 Aug 1318). The Chronica principum Polonie records that "Conrado Stynnaviensi" married secondly "filiam…Theoderici marchionis orientalis, relicta quondam Conradi nepotis Fridrici imperatoris, Conradi filii"[706].

Because I am not clear if the marriage to Sophia was ever consummated. If it was then perhaps we’d find Attilda in her second husbands household.

—-

KONRADIN (Lucera [1252]-hanged Lucera 1269) Died aged 17. Again, seeming rather young to be a parent. It sounds like his mother was of Arab background, and she died with him, so not available to take care of a grand daughter, much less get her elevated to baroness.

Seems hinky.

Who can read this?

https://books.google.co.uk/books?id=qVrAPVqb54UC&pg=PA48#v=onep...

‪Teatro genologico delle famiglie nobili titolate feudatarie ed antiche nobili del fidelissimo Regno di Sicilia viuenti ed estinte. Del s. don Filadelfo Mugnos. Parte prima [-terza]. .., Volume 3. nella stamparia di Giacomo Mattei, 1670 - 620 pages. Page 48. “Della Famiglia Pellegrino.”‬

I think it says “natural daughter”. And I’m thinking of the 1st Konrad, not either of his teenage sons.

I don't have time right now to discuss everything you posted (about to eat dinner) but let me point out the Sophia was only 7 years old when she was betrothed to Conrad. So the marriage was never consummated and could not have resulted in children.

The legend in one article you posted said that while in prison, before being executed, he expressed the desire to "lie with a woman" before being executed. Even if that occurred, where is the evidence that Attilda was the result of that 1 time event? Possible but?

Perhaps, more likely to be the child of Konradin.

I'll post more later.

Sophie had no children from 1st marriage at age 7 by proxy or 2nd marriage at age 12. Konradin who died age 16 never met Sophie.

If Attilda existed I’m wondering if by the King (the father). Natural daughter of a natural son who died “with his mother” seems a stretch.

Here’s another Pellegrino article.

Malta illustrata ovvero Descrizione di Malta isola del mare ..., Volume 2 Page 468;(several pages) https://books.google.com/books?id=onxb8mja88kC&lpg=PA470&ot...

Erica Howton

I have read everything you have posted (very impressive), most items several times.

A couple of points:

1. Geni shows Conrad with two partners, Sophie and Margarita di San Lorenzo maybe I missed it but I can't find that second name in any of the the postings. the closest is the fairytale about the mermaid which claims that while in prison Conrad had relations with a young girl "such Cicella, daughter of a Maestro Ferraio, and with whom he would have a son named Ciummo." Later Circella is changed to Matilda, but the family name is not San Lorenzo, and we are discussing a daughter not a son. I have to discount this story.

2. You suggested that if attlida was the daughter of Konradin, and he was executed along with his mother who would have raised Attilda? But Konradin has a wife, Maragrita of San Lorenzo, who could have raised a daughter (and also a son).

3. I think there has been a great deal of confusion in some sources because both sons of Conrad IV had the same name. Medlands documents that fact that the both existed, but doesn't provide parners of children. Also both wives are San Lorenzo? Could be, but also may just be confusion.

4. The source you posted was very good, and it shows that Attilda was indeed the natural daughter of "Corrado Sueno", but which Konrad is that? Could be either. No mother is mentioned.

5. I found another source https://kzmxvpxvy2kok2oaalxva27uzy-jj2cvlaia66be-gw-geneanet-org.tr... that has Matilda as the daughter of the illegitimate Konradin. Of course, it is only another on-line tree that may have been based on the other 2 I originally posted. However, I haven't found an on-line tree that matched Geni with Attilda as the daughter of the legit king.

Bottom line is I will defer to you. You have much more experience, and you are a curator. But after reviewing everything, I think the evidence is that Attilda is the daughter of Konradin. It's certainly not conclusive either way.

Bernard

A tale of 3 Correddo / Conradins, a possibly fabricated mother, a dicey marriage, an ambiguous name (is Attilda the same as Matilde) ...

My problem with both of the junior Conrad’s is that they were both so young - documented as 16 and 17. The source I can’t read much of and have no idea of validity (at least it’s a real source) does not list her father “Carrado Sueva”, descendant of Emperor Federico ll, as an illegitimate child. And were the bastard son and his mother hanged as a political risk to King Charles or were they just caught up in a general massacre of Lucerna residents?

So tempting as it is, we have to stick with the source material. Her father was a king. The question is - which one, father or son?

I get nothing when I try to find the mother and there is obscurity around the husband family. It sorts out more cleanly down tree.

Although I have come to a different conclusion, let's leave Attilda where she is for now. We've well documented what we've found. Perhaps someone will read this discussion down the road and add additional info or new insights.

One suggestion I would make for immediate action is to eliminate Margarita di San Lorenzo as Attilda's mother (replace with NN). As I pointed out, no source (even the bad ones) have her name listed as a partner of Conrad.

bernard

Agree - and I’m not in total disagreement. So we can reflect that in notes. The descent is more important to validate if possible.

This is weak, but if Konradin von Sueva existed, then her name of Attilda, daughter of Corrado Sueva, matches better in the illegitimate Conrad line. So I moved her over. Not that I believe he had 2 children.

His mother was described as “Italian,” but I think they could have been hanged as part of a purge of the Arab ancestry living at Lucrera, loyal to the House of Hohenstaufen.

Erica Howton excuse the Frenchism, but he continues to do whatever the fuck he likes, I warned you.

now he are drinking all the medieval "mr.Vassallo" family, (the owner of maltagenealogy) the one intertwined with all the oldest medieval families, which no one, not even all google knows.
Roberto Vassallo, II, 4th Barone Di Bavuso & more & more & more (check his activity.. even today I had to go and look at which of my corrections from books, changed by him through smart copy, that is, he remodels the corrections, with cited sources, for 2 years he has been touring me around medieval Italy in this way)

Bernard Joseph Albanese read books, among other things that you make other users search, fast import from DIY family tree is not a good source for middle ages.. .. but you have already been told.

Livio Scremin - can you translate this? Any comments on the source book?

https://books.google.co.uk/books?id=qVrAPVqb54UC&pg=PA48#v=onep...

The bastard son of King Conrad was a good contribution to Geni.

Bernard Joseph Albanese - Maltese genealogy is difficult and the site is known fraudulent. I actually have a Maltese origin - Howton researcher, who gave up on trying to access church records in Malta and stuck with Anglo American extended family. :)

a google OCR tool partially recovered the text, I partially cleaned up the errors, and translated it from old Italian (f = s) (u / v some time:) (accents / doubles) etc etc.. [just to let you know how hard it was;]

see if by dissecting the parts that interest you, and going to the top of the translator you find what you need .. and if anything, I focus on that piece.

for convenience I put it in a Document not so much to use it, but only to be able to fast modify it in various steps:
*https://www.geni.com/documents/view?doc_id=6000000173367215485
(dont try this at home)

Still a little ambiguous on whose her daddy.

Sending through google translate:

Pier Luca Pellegrino, had for wife a natural daughter of Corrado Sueuo, called Attilda, for wife; with the dominion of Randazzo, and Centoripe as a dowry, which were given to him as a pafcia, by Ré Manfredo, under the pretext of being a Hellenistic member of the Regio Demanio, and gave him in exchange the fiefs of Frascino, and Briemi, who succeeded him their son Giacomo, with his wife Margarita in many public events and privileges are called relatives of the King; However, I have not found how this real kinship reached, the profoppose dell'ante said,

—-

So she gives a town as a dowry? This sounds like a kings daughter ....

http://www.madeinsouthitalytoday.com/randazzo.php

Her other dowry was the richest town in Sicily at one time.

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Centuripe

Emperor Frederick II entirely destroyed the city in 1233 in punishment for its rebellion, the inhabitants deported to Augusta. King Charles I of Anjou razed it completely to the ground, and the city was rebuilt only in 1548 by Francesco Moncada.

Other sights include the Chiesa Madre (17th century) and the ruins of the so-called Castle of Conradin, in fact a Roman mausoleum of the Imperial age.

Conradins Castle

https://www.reddit.com/r/castles/comments/2jeyr1/torre_astura_italy...

I can't access the document Livio posted, it says I don't have permission?

However looking at the translation Erica posted, it says that Allilda's son and daughter-in-laws were regarded as relatives of the King (that would be the current King at that time). Regardless of who Attilda's father was, she was still the granddaughter of King Conrad IV.

The translation ends by saying "However, I have not found how this real kinship reached".

I agree with Erica that it is still ambiguous.

Erica- regarding the Maltese genealogy I would like to discuss this with further. I will contact you privately.

I think Livio is trying another clean of the text of the book. I didn’t get anything different from another google translate:

—-

This is followed by Thomaso Pellegrino ostiario, (or as we want to say) in modern times Chamber Porter of Emperor Frederick II. whose son Gerardo Pellegrino had of the same Emperor, the government of the Islands of Malta, and of Gozo, from whom it is assumed that the Pellegrino family of Malta originated, already described by the virtuous Cavalier, and Vice Chancellor of the Gerosolimitana Religion, Fra Giovan Francesco Abela, in his Malta Illustrata, Pier Luca Pellegrino, had for wife a natural daughter of Corrado Sueuo, called Attilda, for wife; with the dominion of Randazzo, and Centoripe as a dowry, which were taken from him by Ré Manfredo, under the pretext of being Hellenistic of the Royal State, and gave him in exchange the fiefs of Frascino, and Briemi, who succeeded him Giacomo their son, with his wife Margarita in many public instances and privileges are called relatives of the King; However, I have not found how this real kinship reached, the predictor presumes it, of for Luca Pellegrino son of the aforementioned Giacomo took Antonia daughter of Mazziotta Spadafora as his wife, with whom he procreated Dionisio, who: married Antonia Spadafora daughter of Pietro, is the nephew of Mazziotta, for which reason their daughter Maria obtained from the aforementioned Mazziotta her uncle, the Randazzo census.

—-

It looks like an exchange of property also.

Erica - this second translation is much better than the first one.

Although it doesn't give any more insight as to the father of Attilda, it does point to 2 possible errors in Geni.

1. The wife of Attilda's son, Giacomo, is given as Margarita (no family surname given). Geni has Matilda de Siciliano Matilda de Perregrino. That is probably wrong.

2. The translation also specifies that Giacomo's son, Luca married Antonia Spadafora (which Geni has, although her father is missing). It the goes on to say that they had a a son, Dionisio, who is missing as Giacomo's son. None of the Dpadaforas mentioned in this translation are currently in Geni.