
Were Orme of Darlaston & Robert FitzOrm of Darleston and Biddulph the sons of Gamel fitz Orm & Gamel fitz Orm?
Private User and anyone else, please see.
Tagging Gary Allen Singleton & Neil Lindsay Youren
Cross post from https://www.geni.com/discussions/158450?msg=1695225
That discussion is Medieval Dups - do not merge
Orm fitz Gamel Is a duplicate tree based on https://gw.geneanet.org/foullon?lang=en&pz=alessio+alain+heribert+d..., which has no sources attached.
Here you go. they both existed.
https://books.google.com/books?id=igshAAAAMAAJ&pg=PA267&dq=orm+fitz...
Excellent.
But is there any reason to think Gamel fitz Orm was the father of
https://books.google.com/books?id=rKNCAAAAYAAJ&pg=PA159#v=onepage&q...
https://www.wikitree.com/wiki/Gulden-12 Shows him as son https://www.wikitree.com/wiki/Forestaius-1 & a woman who looks like a daughter of Bardulf, Bishop of Whitern
Stirnet describes this line:
https://www.stirnet.com/genie/data/british/bb4fz/biddulph01.php
Main source: (1) For upper section : Commoners (vol iii, Biddulph of Biddulph)
And it’s different from Sir Richardus Forester, Knt. whose only certain child was Sir Hugo ‘Forestarius’ Forester, Gov. of Etherstone
There was more than one Richard the Forester.
See page 7 of http://www.irving-fam.com/tng/histories/Foster%20History%20ver9.pdf
For the line of Hugo,:
http://www.irving-fam.com/tng/histories/Foster%20History%20ver9.pdf page 11
Hugo died about 1121 but had two sons by an unnamed wife (these ladies get no respect!)4. The sons were named Hugo and Reginald. Both were knighted by King Stephen (reigned 1135 – 1141). Reginald was at the Battle of Standard (1138) for which he was knighted and was made governor of Etherstone.
3 Governor implies an appointment from the King, or other highly placed nobleman. The owner of the land appoints a governor to be a tenant-in-chief to act for the owner of the land.
4 In many pedigree documents of early times the wife is named only if she was well connected (e.g. the daughter of a nobleman). So when no information is recorded about the wife she is probably a local maiden.
(i know the source I’m reading is a hobbyist work, but it’s already made it clearer to me w corrections that are needed ….)
Erica Howton Good thing you posted here that information about all the Foresters being in many parts of England and maybe Scotland. That would seem to prove that we can disregard any connection to all those Foresters. Instead the link should be to the Gamel-Orm line which came from Aethelthryth's marriage to Orm FitzGamel. Margaret incorrectly has the daughter Ecgfrida separated from Gamelo FitzOrm. According to the order: first Orm second Gamel third Orm who married Aethelthryth fourth Ecgfrida(m. Eilsi) and her brother Gamelo FitzOrm, fifth Ormus le Gulden called the Forester, we would have to make Ecgfrida and Gamelo siblings as is not given by Margaret's profiles up the line... Soooo the only trick in there is whether to accept the https://gw.geneanet.org/foullon?lang=en&pz=alessio+alain+heribe......, and use the stirnet tree to only argue against forcing Forester in the Orm-Gamel-Orm line. We will have to agree with that especially you in my view. It would nicely resolve the duplicate line Margaret has put there. The new line it looks like would have to be merged at Aethelythryth, the profile we now have on our profiles dated around 2007. I would disconnect Margaret's Aethelthryth from Margaret's Earl Aldred, then merge if we decide to do it.
Is Etheldritha an alternative name for Etheldritha or is she supposed to have been another daughter of Ealdred, Earl of Northumbria & Bernicia
Later, a thegn from Yorkshire, called Orm, son of Camel, married Actheldryth, one of the five daughters of Earl Ealdred, and they had a daughter called Ecgfrida, who by Aelfsige of Tees had a son, Waltheof, two other sons, and a daughter, Eda. Because Ecgfrida was descended from Ealdred and the daughter of Bishop Ealdun. she claimed hereditary right and with her husband, Aelfsige, seized Barmpton and Skirningham.'
[A Study of Marriage and Murder in Eleventh-century Northumbria:Issue 82 By Christopher J. Morris]
Morris calls her Aetheldryth and she does seem equivalent to Cawley’s "Etheldritha“:
From 'De Obsessione Dunelmi'
http://fmg.ac/Projects/MedLands/ENGLAND,%20AngloSaxon%20nobility.ht...
e) ETHELDREDA . Simeon of Durham's Account of the Siege of Durham records that "Earl Aldred was the father of five daughters, three of whom bore the same name Ælfleda, the fourth…Aldgitha and the fifth Etheldritha"[446].
From [446] Simeon of Durham, p. 767.
Erica Howton
You cited wrong; Orm, son of Camel, it says, Orm, son of Gamel. Both Orm and Gamel was norse names in that time.
And from “Forty Years in a Moorland Parish: Reminiscences and Researches in Danby in ...” By John Christopher Atkinson. Page 267. < GoogleBooks >
This inscription is said to run thus, being translated: "Orm Gamalson bought S. Gregorius minster when it was all to-broken and tofallen he it let make new from the ground, to Christ and S. Gregorius in Edward's days the King and Tosti's days the Earl." And as Tostig was Earl from 1055 to 1065, we have the limits of date within which the church was rebuilt. This clearly brings to our minds the conviction that the Gamel who was murdered by Tostig and the Orm who rebuilt Kirkdale Church were the Gamel and Orm mentioned in the Domesday entry as to Hugh Fitz Baldric's fee, as holding adjoining lands under the previous disposition of the said fee, were nearly connected; and that, allowing for the historical connection, they were connected as father and son. And this justifies Young's assumption that Orm's father Gamel "ranked among the Northumbrian nobles." Dr. Freeman's notice is, "Two Thegns, Gamel the son of Orm and Ulf the son of Dolfin . . . had been treacherously slain by Tostig's order," and in a note he adds, "Dolfin and Orm both appear in Domesday, seemingly as holders under William of small parts of great estates held under Eadward," in other words, they had been great men in the Confessor's days. "Orm married Ethelthryth, a daughter of Earl Ealdred and sister-in-law of Earl Siward, though Gamel was not her son." It is apparent, then, that the Orm who had formerly held Danby-there being many reasons for identifying him with the Orm who held the Kirkby and Kirkdale lands, and none whatever against it, was originally, or in the pre-Norman times, a man of name and note.
So, we need an unnamed first wife as the mother of the murdered Gamel, son of Orm.
The “Camel” is OCR version of Gamel. You can see the difference in the screen snag.
For dating, again “snagging” from Marriage and Murder in Eleventh-century Northumbria: A Study of 'De Obsessione Dunelmi by Christopher J. Morris. Borthwick Publications, 1992 - Anglo-Saxons - 31 pages. Page 7. < GoogleBooks >
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tostig_Godwinson
In late 1063 or early 1064, Tostig had Gamal son of Orm and Ulf son of Dolfin assassinated when Gamal visited him under safe conduct.[10] The Vita Edwardi, otherwise sympathetic to Tostig, states that he had 'repressed [the Northumbrians] with the heavy yoke of his rule'.
10. Walker, Ian W. (1997) Harold: The Last Anglo-Saxon King (Alan Sutton Publishing, Ltd.) ISBN 0-7509-1388-6
https://www.reddit.com/r/BritishHistoryPod/comments/r7t463/orm_and_...
BUT: according to several sites, one of which cites Simeon of Durham, it was Gamal, son of the thegn Orm son of Gamal, whom Tostig killed in the same act of treachery in which he killed Ulf son of Dolfin.
I might as well cross post this comment from https://www.geni.com/discussions/84956?msg=647096 (Robson Scribner on 11/18/2010)
In Viking tradition, take this into consideration that a single name is used for a couple to many generations so they made nicknames that may not show in official records. I found a few of these in the Orm/Gamel/Gamal/Gamle line. I highly suspect lineage to the Norse royalty as evidenced by name and sheer wealth (and marrying into the most prominent family in Northumbria)
Literature states one of the Orm's was Gamal's father while historians say no, he's the brother. Because some of this is in archeological record, Orm/Gamal are father, brother, son depending on the generation. I'll update my line later as I get better dates and have more time to sift through the latin.
I believe your Orm is the son of the Orm I have:
Orm/Ormerod/Arm/Orn/Ornus/Ormus of Ormesby b. 965AD-1041AD (Ormerod means snake or dragon-it's a Viking name)
Orm refurbished the oldest Saxon church in England of Kirkdale
Married: Etheldritha (b., daughter of Earl Aldred Lord of Welbure
Son: Gamel
Son: Roger de Burton of Burton in Kendal
Son: Orm de Ashton of Ashton under Lyne
Daughter: Ecgfrida
(I may need to add another Orm after review but I've been spending most my time looking for grandparents of this Orm).
FYI for research (you likely know) Von, Fitz, Del, D', Vel, -rod -sby are all "of (meaning place) or born from (meeaning child of). I also found lots by spelling names according to Dane, Norse and Saxon variations which are all different.
This source differs from Simon of Durham as to which Gamel was killed by Tostig, Orm’s father or Orm’s son:
Yorkshire Archaeological and Topographical Journal, Volume 4. Biographical notes on the Yorkshire tenants. Page 398. < GoogleBooks >
ORM still held Ormsby in Cleveland, a manor held in common in the late reign by four thanes,' himself and brothers or his father and uncles. This place bears the name of his ancestor rather than himself, but indicates his Danish extraction, and means Orm's abode. Whether he was the same Orm who continued to hold and held as king's thane a manor in Azerley, or the Orm, who acquired a manor in Appletreewick in Craven, which had belonged to Chetel cannot be decided, but he was probably the Orm who, in thaneship, held Ligulf's manor in Kildale in Cleveland, which Bruce afterwards obtained, as well as Orm's late manor in Appleton-on-Wisk, at the date of the Survey in the king's hands. He may have been the Orm, whose lands were given to Hugh Fitz Baldric; eight manors, two of them of considerable value, Hovingham and Bagby.
There can be little doubt, however, it was this Orm of Ormsby, who is mentioned by Simeon of Durham as Orm son of Gamel, and that he married Etheldritha, daughter of earl Aldred, and had a daughter and heiress Ecgfrida, whose husband Eilsi of Tees had, with her, some of the lands of the see of Durham. It was Orm's father, Gamel, son of Orm, who was murdered by earl Tostig in his chamber at York, 1064. (Florence of Worc.)
From https://spaf.cerias.purdue.edu/pers/ralph.pdf page 10:
Gamel had issue two sons: -
ORM and GAMELBAR -
ORM, the elder, was Lord of Wellebrune in which berewick was Kirkdale, Thormanby, Scriven and other places. … He married Ethelbritha …
GAMELBEORN or GAMELBAR de SPOFORD, son of Gamel, Lord of Spofforth, Plumpton, etc. Soon avenged Plumpton, etc. Soon avenged his father’s death by an attack on Tosti, culminating in a revolt of the Northumbrians in 1066 in which many of his bodyguard were slain. Harold traveled to York to restore tranquillity, and Morcar was made Earl of Northumberland the same year. In 1066, Tosti induced the King of Norway to join him in an invasion of England. They stormed York and defeated Morcar, but were themselves defeated by Harold at Stamford Bridge on 23rd September 1066, in a battle in which both Tosti and the King of Norway were slain. Ten days after this victory, Harold himself was defeated and slain at Hastings. Thus, the murder of Gamelbar’s father, leading up to the battle of Stamford Bridge, thereby preventing Harold from giving his whole energies to guarding against the impending invasion by William the Conqueror, became a potent cause of the downfall of the Anglo- Saxons. … Gamelbar was an active participant to free his country in 1068-69 but was forced to submit to William the Conqueror. All of his estates were confiscated and it is probable that his life paid forfeit for his patriotism. Some of his family became tenants of Perci, while others sought refuge in the cloister.
If that’s the case, did in fact Orm (of the Sundial inscription) actually have a son Gamel? Or was that his brother?
I still don’t understand which Gamel was murdered by Tostig in 1064.
Gamel fitz Orm or
Gamel fitz Orm
Gamelbar de Spofford son of Gamel fitz Orm, “avenged his father’s death.”
Yet Gamel fitz Orm seems described as the murdered man.
Thoughts?
Brief note on the inscriptions, given in “Forty Years in a Moorland Parish” — the author is a pastor of the area, and very fond of both walking about the country and thinking about it. I’d note, especially, Appendix E, “Attempt to Clear Up the Difficulties in the Domesday Entries Touching Danby” — which concerns Orm — -as a sort of exemplar of how Atkinson approaches a problem, which in this case is to make an apparently small issue into a REALLY BIG one.
Yes. And throughout, there’s a lot of “it could be” and “perhaps” and “most certainly,” which causes me to wonder about the argument.
As to the inscription — he says the inscription “is said” to have run, as he gives us, “being translated.” Said by whom. Translated by whom. We have no idea, and it may or may not matter, but I would not want to use the passage as a foundation for any argument. Or as a wrench to throw into an argument, if the argument is working otherwise.
This is really a delightful book. The author is a large-minded human who is totally interested in the place he is working; he was from the south of England, and the moors were exotic to him. He loved immediately the landscape, the flora and fauna, the dialect. I think he was probably a very good pastor; by the time he wrote the book he had been there 46 years, so apparently he and his flock were satisfied with each other. And he is a very thoughtful person. And he knows scholarly methods. I just would weigh his work differently than I would weigh the more recent works.
Do NOT miss the very long section, at the beginning of the book, on Folklore. There were fairies all around, and witches galore, apparently, according to his parishioners, and he is actually respectful of these things he cannot believe in — he thinks a lot about where these beliefs come from, and how they fit into beliefs around the world, and he listens.
I just love him.
anyway — also, Simon of Durham, who put together the chronicle mentioned about, is working, in the part that’s relevant here, with Bede, a chronicle from Worcester, and the Anglo-Saxon Chronicle (one of the lost manuscripts, I see). So he’s compiling rather than writing this section, though he does write the last section of the manuscript.
He’s a good source for history, though of course we always keep in mind the possibility of transcription error. There having been som many versions of the text.
Ok. this wasn’t brief. I lied.
Ok. this wasn’t brief. I lied.
Oh, please do go on! I thought I was dealing with a possibly bogus Gedcom nonsense dup & I would just need a cursory “are you SURE” before sending to the recycle bin. Instead, I’m finding marriage, murder, blood feud, and a possible history of England-changing death. Not to mention miraculously surviving sundials and wholesome pastors.
So. Which Gamel was murdered by Tostig?
I saw somewhere Tostig wasn’t as evil as he’s made out to be. I’m not seeing actual evidence of that, yet. He seems quite worse.
What I would do, looking at all the various studies gathered here, is put either one as the person murdered by Tostig, with curator’s notes and Overview notes explaining the situation, which is, essentially, that there are Orms and Gamels in the family, and their timelines and the murder of one of them cause it to be unclear as to which Gamel got murdered and then was one of the causes of the Battle of Stamford Bridge.
We don’t seem to have a surviving manuscript that makes it clear. But we have studies that argue, well, both sides.
Sorry, I got disconnected from the proposed merger line of Gamelo FitzOrm and son? Ormus le Gulden as soon as we spotted that quote from "Forty Years......" by Rev. Atkinson in 1891 saying that Ethelbritha was not the mother of Gamel (o) FitzOrm (but his stepmother). Then the disconnection was made and I lost all interest in pursuing the line because it left out Uchtred the Bold. Although it is good to know that the line is Orm, Gamel, Orm, Gamel bc1643, we than saw Ormus disconnected from Gamel 1643. That deleted most all further interest in the future of the line. It did not exist in any records found so far. Back to the top and Erica's debate about which Gamel was killed by Tostig, I looked this morning at the profile of Gamel FitzOrm bc1000. If one puts a note at their death on edit, it gets put into the summary at the top of each profile. So I seem to remember that a long time ago I put that note into Gamel Senior's death notice that he was killed by Tostig. Will I remove that? probably no. All my reading of that era and the succession of generations has shown a bias toward killing the eldest one in an important family line since they had spent usually a long time in opposition to the executioner. They also would amaze me by afterwards forgiving the succeeding generations and allowing the succession of inheritance. Looking at the ages of the proponets of the argument, they all seem to be born at about the same year, 1000: Gamel the elder, Gospatrick FitzUchtred (the Bold), and Ulf along with Earl Tostig. Gamel and Gospatrick are noted in the oldest records as being opponents of Tostig and representing the Northumberland Thanes. So Tostig killed those 3, Gamel the elder, Gospatrick, and Ulf causing the Northumberland Thanes to rise up in rebellion against him in 1066. Then it says, Gamelbar the brother of Orm FitzGamel, the spouse of Ethelbritha also rose up to join the thanes to kill Tostig in revenge for the killing of his father, Gamel. That then would have to be Gamel the elder one, not the grandson Gamel who was so young that Tostig would not have noted any threat from the younger one. Now that I have concluded that there is nary any evidence of Gamel born 1643 being murdered by 1664, there still is no reason to surmise that Gamel the younger was the end of the line of Orms and Gamels. We only have no evidence of any children fathered by him. Plus he was of military age in 1066-68 at 23. Did he die in battle?
Gary Allen Singleton - I would tend to agree with your assessment that the elder Gamel was the man assassinated.
I completed the “traditional” pedigree (from a man called Burke, not the well known Burke genealogy book). It breaks in two places: