Is Francois Savoie really the son of Tomaso?

Try these Male line Savoies:
A034818
A531526
A744175

Hello!

New to this discussion - I stumbled upon it due to a distant connection in my family tree. Fascinating how this discussion has continued for eight years thus far!

While DNA testing is a key to determining ancestry, given the complexity of having various members of the Savoie/Savoia families across continents, how about looking more into the development of the Savoie surname in France? (while simultaneously continuing to research DNA of course)

For example, are there Savoie families in Europe that have the surname due to geographical reasons or perhaps some indirect connection to the House of Savoy? Was it even customary to take on a surname for such reasons at that time?

If we approach everything from a different angle, perhaps we can discover some links.

With Thomas Savoie I got 4.5 cms on Chromosome 12, & with Paul Savoie, 4.1 cms on Chr. 2..With David Savoie I got nothing, so that doesn't really move things further along..I have had matches of 4.0cms, & lower with people I am definitely related to, but No Match with David Savoie is a bit disappointing, & the fact that I matched with Thomas & Paul on different chromosomes, might be nothing more than some shared European ancestry way back..Savoie?..Who knows.

This is not about Francois, but I am descended from one Jacques de Savoye (1636-1717), who came to the Cape, South Africa, in 1688, with his daughter, Marguerite Thérèse -- they were ordinary Huguenots fleeing persecution in Belgium, and had no royal lineage. This shows that there were at this time Huguenot commoners with the "de Savoye" name eager to emigrate -- and perhaps also to Canada. Royal heritage also has been suggested on occasion for this Cape "de Savoye" family, but that is grandiose imagining, with nothing to substantiate it. Most Europeans would have been well aware of the existence of the noble family of Savoy, which coexisted with "Savoy" as a name pointing to geographic origin. (Incidentally, I also am a descendant of Umberto 'il Beato' DI SAVOIA, III, but stemming from another line, through the marriage of Maria von Thurn u. Taxis to Daniel van den Berghe.)

Yes Noah, but not with the shared family history.

https://augustinesalley.files.wordpress.com/2015/01/loius-savoy-boo...

Noah, posting anecdotes that are not directly related to the Francis Savoie does not disprove the royal, Italian origins of Francis Savoie. If Francis Savoie came from Loudin France and is not the son of Tomaso than prove it with documentation.

To Gary,

Thank you for sharing the info on the de Savoye family in South Africa! It is highly insightful and interesting to hear that your ancestors had emigrated to South Africa from Belgium. Out of curiosity, to which line of the House of Savoy have suggestions been made for links?

To Noah,

Thank you for the reference! This looks like a fascinating read. It would be great to learn more about this connection to Seigneury d'Aulnay.

To Joseph,

Thank you for providing the snapshots of the text! Although I've not read it, this book also sounds like a must-read for this topic. The difference between the story provided by the author's uncle and that by the author himself is quite curious.

Thanks again!

Hi Kenneth, as for the differences in the oral accounts I think some details do get lost generation to generation. However, the core truth is steady and consistent. For example, my great Aunt Rita Savoie insisted the royal connections of the Savoies were true. She never used the internet and she never meet Loius Savoy or read his book. She provided another interesting detail: that the Savoies came from a "Spanish Princess" . Aunt Rita didn't know her name but I believe she was referring to Tomaso's mother, Princess Catherine of Spain, the daughter of Spanish King Phillip II.

For more on what Aunt Rita Savoie passed on to me please see my blog post here:
https://augustinesalley.wordpress.com/2015/01/27/the-duchy-of-savoy...

Re. the de Savoye family..the Flemish spelling for de Savoie..(mentioned earlier here)..They lived in Ath, Flanders, (present day Belgium)..Co-incidentally Jacques de Savoie Comte de Romont, also lived in Ath..A rather small & not particularly important town..He also married there, with one legitimate daughter..The idea that there was a link to his branch of the Savoie family came about because of the obvious location, & the idea that another "non descript" family not connected, would have the nerve to call themselves after the prominent Savoie family, when there was absolutely no connection..I would've thought the Comte & his family would've taken a very dim view of this gross impertinence...The Savoye family which were referred to earlier were prominent merchants in Ath, with very good connections..However a later ancestor changed his religion, & made some bad investments..A trip to South Africa after substantial losses meant he was unable to return to Flanders.(.By this time the family had settled in Ghent)...There is very good circumstantial evidence to suggest a link to Jacques de Savoie Comte de Romont..A relationship with a local girl there?..However, unfortunately many records from that time have been lost or destroyed, so because right now, there is no actual proof..ie documentation.many people will reject the idea of a connection because of that:...There was a discussion on this possible connection on Geni some time ago, but it has been discontinued, & the "link" severed..I really hope this group stays together, & you continue with your search..Even if the Francois link hasn't yet been proved, neither has it yet been disproved.

Joseph,
You told Noah that you wanted him to prove that he is not the son of Tomaso with documentation... but you cannot provide any documentation that he is Tonaso’s son or any documentation to prove that he is not from France. In essence you are asking Noah to do what you have yet to do.

Glen, its Noah's assertion that Francis Savoie is not the son of Tomaso and he supports this by providing anecdotal stories that are unrelated to Francis Savoie. I have documentation in the form of long standing oral history centuries old from widely geographically dispersed branches of the Savoie family. Tell me, how did my great Aunt Rita Savoie know a detail of Francis's paternal grandmother (Tomaso's mother)? She didnt use the internet, she didnt read Louis Savoy's book. She passed on to me what her father and grandfather told her. The oral tradition is good enough for me and many other Savoie's. The royal connection was never doubted until very recently. I would give Noah more credibility if thought he was an unbiased researcher. Instead, he throws out unrelated assertions hoping that something will stick. So again, if he is so positive that Francis is not the son of Tomaso then I say prove it Noah.

Joseph, is it not feasible that your family's source of this belief might have been the Arcadian genealogy history published in the 1950s, which began this thread, and later admitted by the author to be incorrect? If that was not the source, perhaps whatever was the source for the history in the 1950s was the common source of your grandmother's belief?

Danielle, do I understand you correctly to be saying my Flemish ancestor Jacques de Savoye of Ath possibly was related to Jacques de Savoie Comte de Romont, also of Ath, since how else could somebody assume that name in that unimportant town unless in fact there was a relation?

Kenneth, I cannot recall now to which branch of noble Savoys the South African progenitors have occasionally been said to be connected; incidentally, I have also previously seen the South African Savoyes linked to the Arcadian Savoyes, but that link was removed.

Gary, in short, no. For one the family members who have shared the oral Savoie family histories are geographically separated in Canada, Louisiana and New England. The only way this could have happen is if the stories originated before their separation, which occurred centuries ago. Secondly, my great Aunt Rita Savoie did not know of or read any books on the Savoie family history, that came from her father and her grandfather. Also,it is never mentioned in Louis Savoie's book that Tomaso's mother was a Spanish princess, yet my Aunt Rita knew that. The point is is that the oral traditions of Francis Savoy and his father go back to the beginning of his time in Canada.

Joseph, very interesting stuff. Thank you for sharing. One "oral" history we rely on a lot is a new mom telling us who the father is, so we certainly can't discount oral histories

Hello Michael,

Thank you... Our families do know who we are. It's interesting to note that Sally Hemming's descendants always knew they were descended from Thomas Jefferson. They didn't have "proper documentation" either, only their oral traditions.

Remember Alex Haley and "Roots" and how he used the oral traditions of his family to find his roots all the way back to Africa.

Both of those traditions were passed down over centuries to parent to child... and they were both confirmed!

Family oral traditions are not the only method of genealogical research but they do have their place and their importance. We should not dismiss them.

Gary, in response to your question re. de Savoye family in Ath, I am saying that the (so far un-proven) link to Jacques de Savoie Comte de Romont, cannot be completely discounted, for the reasons given above.

Kenneth, here is the link to the discussion of the purported royal link for the South African Sovoye, which Danielle was asserting: https://www.geni.com/discussions/122970?page=3. Personally, I think in both cases, the French and South African, only hard documentation will settle the points.

And here is the link to the project on the South African progenitor: https://www.geni.com/projects/de-Savoye-Genealogy-of-South-Africa/1...

I have a 6.8 MRCA autosomal match with a Comeau descendant at Gedmatch. And I have no other known possible connection with Acadian descendants other than through the Savoies. I am both a Bourbon and Savoy descendant through the Ponce De Leons who got exiled to the Philippines. So I am inclined to believe that Francois is also a blood descendant of both the House of Bourbon and the House of Savoy.

Wow Bill! That is a stunning find, but not unexpected. I do believe that more DNA evidence supporting Francis Savoies connection to the House of Savoie will be known. Thank you for sharing.

The odds of this match happening is very, very low. My European genes are down to only 2% at Ancestry (but 5% at Gedmatch's Eurogenes K12). And our paper MRCA would be at least 15 generations away. Inter-marriages made this happen. Both the Bourbons and the Savoys are known to marry close relatives. And this practice was repeated in the isolated small colony of Acadia. And also in the isolated Cuyo Archipelago where the Philippine Ponce De Leons were exiled.

What is your Gedmatch number Bill?

Just tagging the profile to the discussion

Pablo de Bourbon Ponce de Leon

It is interesting that the DNA proof that Francis is from the house of Savoy would come from the Philippines and not Canada or Turin Italy.

Gosh, the extreme skepticism getting absurd. I swear Noah the only thing that will convince you is to go back in time and witness the birth of Francis Savoie yourself. You are not being helpful or impartial. The DNA evidence PLUS the strong oral history PLUS the lack of of any alternative evidence is strong proponderance of evidence that the connection of Francis Savoie to the House is TRUE.

Either come up with positive evidence of a contrary origin story or accept the truth. This throwing stuff up on the wall hoping something will stick isnt helpful.

To give you an idea of how rare this match is. It was my only match with this guy at the default Gedmatch threshold of 7 cM and 500 SNP. I reduced the threshold to 3 cM and 300 SNP, and this is still the only match I got with this guy.

Noah, you claim to be a historian but you ignore any evidence that supports that Francis is the son of Tomaso. Since you see this as a closed issue why are you still posting on this thread? You are not a descendant of Francis. You are so focused on this issue?

It’s a real shame that you are so intent on denying the descendants of Francis Savoie the right to know their heritage. Produce a birth certificate showing that Tomaso isn’t the father of Francis. Tell me how my great Aunt Rita Savoie, who died in 2010 at 95 years old, know that Tomaso’s mother (Francis’s grandmother) was a princess from Spain.
You have no evidence to make a definitive statement that Francis is not the son of Tomaso. You don’t know and as a “historian” you should have the intellectual honesty to at least acknowledge the real possibility that Francis Savoie’s Royal heritage is true.

Based on my own experience in investigating family oral traditions, they are fairly accurate. Specially those that have survived for several generations.

So, based on the evidence presented so far, I am inclined to believe that it is more likely than not that Francois Savoie is a House of Savoy descendant.

Bill, the family oral traditions are true. We have evidence while Noah has absolutely none.

Noah, it is irresponsible to state as a fact that "Francis Savoie had peasant parents" when you have no evidence to support it. The fact that you are unwilling to entertain any possibility that Francis' connection to the house of Savoy is true leads me to believe that you are more concerned about Noah being proved right rather than Geni being accurate.