Isabel de Say, Lady of Clune

Isabel de Say, Lady of Clun, was born circa 1135 at Clun, Shropshire, England. She was the daughter and Heir of Helias de Say [Burke's Peerage].

Father Helias de Say Lord of Cluny b. circa 1101

Married

1. circa 1149 to William FitzAlan, b. circa 1136, d. circa 121, Lord of Clun and Owestry. He was the son of William FitzAlan Baron of Oswestry and Christiana of Gloucester, circa 1149. He was Sheriff of Shropshire. Rebel with Empress vs K. Stephen.
2. circa 1165 to Geoffrey De Vere, Lord of Clun, son of Aubrey II (Crusader) de Vere and Adeliza de Clare. He was Lord of Clun, de jure uxoris. Sheriff of Salop.
3. between 1170 and 1188 to William (II) Boterel, d. 1209, son of William l Boterel and Alice Corbet. He survived her.

Children of William FitzAlan and Isabel:

1. Christiana FitzAlan+ b. c 1150 (6)
2. William II FitzAlan Lord of Clun b. b 1160, d. c 1210 (2)
3. John FitzAlan 4th Earl of Arundel+ b. c 1164, d. 1239 (3)

Children of William Boeterel and Isabel:

1. William lll (-1242)

Links

1. http://worldconnect.genealogy.rootsweb.com/cgi-bin/igm.cgi?op=GET&d...
2. http://worldconnect.genealogy.rootsweb.com/cgi-bin/igm.cgi?op=GET&d...
3. http://www.tim.ukpub.net/pl_tree/ps20/ps20_062.html

Notes

• Birth circa 1135 Isabel was born circa 1135 at Clun, Shropshire, England. She was the daughter and Heir of Heias de Say [Burke's Peerage].

Marriage* circa 1149 Isabel de Say Lady of Clune married William FitzAlan Lord of Clun and Owestry, son of William FitzAlan Baron of Oswestry and Christiana of Gloucester, circa 1149. They had at least two children: John (Lord of Clun) and William (Baron of Clun). Christiana is added by some. Isabel brought the Clun estate to her husband, as she was the heir of that estate.1,3,4,2

1160 Some time near or after 1160, Guy le Strange, Sheriff of Shropshire was appointed to administer the Fitz Alan estates and Eyton gives many examples of entries by him with regard to these estates.2

Marriage* circa 1165 Isabel de Say Lady of Clune married Geoffrey De Vere Lord of clun, son of Aubrey II (Crusader) de Vere and Adeliza de Clare, circa 1165. Geoffrey became Lord Clun in the right of Isabel. Beginning in 1166, Geoffrey de Vere began receiving income from the Fitz Alan estates. This continues until 1170 when Eyton notes "Geoffrey de Vere died; but credit is taken for his full annuity out of the Fitz Alan estates up to Michaelmas. The word habuit is however used instead of the word habet in respect of the lands which had furnished the said annuity and which he had ceased to hold."

It does not seem that they had any children.2

Marriage* circa 1175 Isabel de Say Lady of Clune married William de Botreaux Lord of Clun, son of William de Botreaux Sheriff of Devon and Alice Corbet, circa 1175.2

Death* circa 1199
Isabel died circa 1199.5

Family 1 William FitzAlan Lord of Clun and Owestry b. circa 1136, d. circa 1210

Children 1. Christiana FitzAlan+ b. c 11506

	2.	William II FitzAlan Lord of Clun b. b 1160, d. c 12102

3. John FitzAlan 4th Earl of Arundel+ b. c 1164, d. 12393
Citations

[S9603] Unknown author, Burke.

Download, Jim Weber http://worldconnect.genealogy.rootsweb.com/cgi-bin/igm.cgi?op=GET&d....

Download, http://www.gendex.com/users/Enf_Bry/Enf_Bry/i768.html#I56757.

Download, http://awt.ancestry.com/cgi-bin/igm.cgi?op=GET&db=brucedj9&id=I32575 e-mail address Bruce D. Johnson 15 Oct 2002 citing pg 200, Burke's " A Genealogical History of the Dormant, Abeyant, Forfeited and Extinct Peera ges of the British Empire" published 1883 .

Download, http://awt.ancestry.com/cgi-bin/igm.cgi?op=GET&db=brucedj9&id=I32575 e-mail address Bruce D. Johnson 15 Oct 2002 citing pg 200, Burke's " A Genealogical History of the Dormant, Abeyant, Forfeited and Extinct Peera ges of the British Empire" published 1883 .

Download, http://awt.ancestry.com/cgi-bin/igm.cgi?op=GET&db=mhofemann&id=I14876 Michael Hofemann e-mail address.

Eyton, in Antiquities of Shropshire [vol.7, pp.211-253 and elsewhere; 1853-60], gave a very detailed account of the early FitzAlans. In the reference cited above, J.H. Round corrected the early part of Eyton's work, dealing with Alan FitzFleald's ancestry. However, for the following generations, Eyton's account remains both fuller and more accurate than later work [cf. Sanders, English Baronies, pp.70, 71, 124, 391, 392 (1960); Keats-Rohan, Domesday Descendants, pp.515, 680, 860 (2002)].

In the following summary, I have included references to source material only for points omitted or contradicted by the later writers (and in one case for an addition to Eyton's account).

  1. Alan FitzFleald, who married Aveline de Hesding.

2. William FitzAlan, their son and heir, who married 1stly Christiana, neptis (niece or kinswoman) of Robert Earl of Gloucester, and 2ndly Isabel, daughter and heir of Elias de Say, lord of Clun [Isabel is described as the daughter of Elias in a 12th-century narrative from the cartulary of Lilleshall Abbey, printed by Dugdale, Monasticon, vol.6, p.262, cited by Eyton, vol.9, p.358]. After William's death in 1160, Isabel remarried, before 1166, to Geoffrey de Vere (d. 1170) and, before 1188, to William Boterel; she died probably in 1199, and was survived by her third husband.
3. William FitzAlan, the son and heir of William by Isabel, who succeeded as a minor and apparently came of age in 1175. He married a daughter of Hugh de Lacy, Lord of Meath [Rot. Hundredorum, vol.2, pp.69, 76, 80, referring to land given to William FitzAlan with the sister of Walter de Lacy, cited by Eyton, vol.5, p.86, vol.10, p.126] and died in 1210 [Eyton, vol.7, p.244 citing the Annals of Dunstable Priory; since printed in Annales Monastici, vol.3 (Rolls Series no 36; 1866)].
4. William FitzAlan, their son and heir, who succeeded as a minor, married Mary, the daughter of Thomas de Erdington, and died without issue, Easter 1215 [Eyton, vol.10, p.326, citing a copy of a letter from Thomas de Erdington to the king, referring to William's death at Easter and dated by Eyton to 1215 on internal evidence (Vincent's Collections, vol.3, p.98, College of Arms)]. Mary remarried to William de Duston, and both were living June 1220 [Curia Regis Rolls, vol.9, p.57].
5. John FitzAlan, his brother and heir, as given above.
(Note that Sanders gave an alternative reconstruction, in which the second William FitzAlan died 1212-1213 and was the grandfather, not the father, of William (d. 1215) and his brother John. But this is shown to be incorrect by the statement of a jury in 1223 that John FitzAlan's father, William, had been a minor in the custody of Henry II [Curia Regis Rolls, vol.11, p.69].)

[The error concerning the identity of the William FitzAlan who married Isabel de Say, and much of the evidence presented by Eyton, were pointed out by Joe Cochoit in April 2002. Peter Stewart pointed out the disagreement between Eyton's and Sanders's reconstructions in May 2002. Thanks to Cris Nash, Ian Fettes, Leo van de Pas, Rosie Bevan and Robert S. Baxter for many other helpful contributions during the ensuing discussion.]

ISABEL - a brief biography

Isabel de Say Sex: F Birth: ABT 1141 in Clun,England Death: ABT 1199 . Isabel (married 2nd c1166 Geoffrey de Vere, married 3rd c1188 William Boterel, died c1199), daughter and heir of Ingram de Say, feudal Lord of Clun, Salop. [Burke's Peerage] It appears the name of her father was Ellis/Elias/Helias de SAY/SAYE & not Ingram/Ingelram: (Ellis de Say) whose da. and h., Isabel, brought it (the Lordship of Clun in Shropshire) to her husband, William FitzAlan [Ref: CP II:335 as corrected by CP XIV] In CP V:391 it states "...Isabel, da. and h. of Ingram de Say..." Isabel was the daughter of Elias, not Ingram, de Say... Isabel, daughter and heir of Elias de Say, lord of Clun [Isabel is described as the daughter of Elias in a 12th-century narrative from the cartulary of Lilleshall Abbey, printed by Dugdale, Monasticon, vol.6, p.262, cited by Eyton, vol.9, p.358]. [Ref: Some corrections and additions to the Complete Peerage, FitzAlan (of Oswestry), Volume 5, page 391: http://www.medievalgenealogy.org.uk/cp/vol3.shtml]

As I have noted, after 1160, Guy le Strange, Sheriff of Shropshire was appointed to administer the Fitz Alan estates and Eyton gives many examples of entries by him with regard to these estates. In 1165, Geoffrey de Vere married Isabel de say and became lord of Clun in her right. This is recorded in the Liber Niger and numerous financial entries. Her third husband, William Boterell, would also become Baron of Clun in her right. William II Fitz Alan (her son) is not recorded with regard to Clun until 1203, after her death. She actually died in 1199 so presumably William FA (FITZALAN) was baron of Clun from 1199-1210.

Beginning in 1166, Geoffrey de Vere began receiving income from the Fitz Alan estates. This continues until 1170 when Eyton notes "Geoffrey de Vere died; but credit is taken for his full annuity out of the Fitz Alan estates up to Michaelmas. The word habuit is however used instead of the word habet in respect of the lands which had furnished the said annuity and which he had ceased to hold."

All this clearly shows that Isabel de Say, Lady of Clun married Geoffrey de Vere and that she is the same as the Isabel de Say who married William Fitz Alan (d. 1160). [Ref: Joe Cochoit message to soc.genealogy.medieval 19 May 2002] Isabel Say, daughter and heir of Helias de Say, Lady of Clun, niece of Robert Say, Earl of Gloucester. [Ref: The Ancestors of Homer Beers James: http://homepages.rootsweb.com/~pmcbride/james/f019.htm#T55] married 1st: William FITZALAN (no date given) [Ref: CP V:392, Holloway p10, Watney p391] Note: (Holloway = "The Genealogy of Mary Wentworth, Who Became the Wife of William Brewster" by Naomi D. Holloway 1969 LDS Film 1738313) married 2nd: Geoffrey de VERE before 1166 [Ref: Some corrections and additions to the Complete Peerage, FitzAlan (of Oswestry), Volume 5, page 391: http://www.medievalgenealogy.org.uk/cp/vol3.shtml] married 3rd: William BOTEREL before 1188 [Ref: Some corrections and additions to the Complete Peerage, FitzAlan (of Oswestry), Volume 5, page 391: http://www.medievalgenealogy.org.uk/cp/vol3.shtml] she died probably in 1199 [Ref: Some corrections and additions to the Complete Peerage, FitzAlan (of Oswestry), Volume 5, page 391: http://www.medievalgenealogy.org.uk/cp/vol3.shtml]

Isabel de SAY Sex: F Birth: 1135 in Clun, Shropshire, England Death: ABT 1199

Isabel (married 2nd c1166 Geoffrey de Vere, married 3rd c1188 William Boterel, died c1199), daughter and heir of Ingram de Say, feudal Lord of Clun, Salop. [Burke's Peerage]

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The following is copied from the website, maintained by Chris Phillips, entitled: "Some corrections and additions to the Complete Peerage":

Isabel was the daughter of Elias, not Ingram, de Say, and married the first William FitzAlan (d. 1160), not his son William, who died in 1210. Their son and heir William died about Easter, 1215. For a fuller account, see below.

Eyton, in Antiquities of Shropshire [vol.7, pp.211-253 and elsewhere; 1853-60], gave a very detailed account of the early FitzAlans. In the reference cited above, J.H. Round corrected the early part of Eyton's work, dealing with Alan FitzFleald's ancestry. However, for the following generations, Eyton's account remains both fuller and more accurate than later work [cf. Sanders, English Baronies, pp.70, 71, 124, 391, 392 (1960); Keats-Rohan, Domesday Descendants, pp.515, 680, 860 (2002)].

In the following summary, I have included references to source material only for points omitted or contradicted by the later writers (and in one case for an addition to Eyton's account).

1. Alan FitzFleald, who married Aveline de Hesding.

2. William FitzAlan, their son and heir, who married 1stly Christiana, neptis (niece or kinswoman) of Robert Earl of Gloucester, and 2ndly Isabel, daughter and heir of Elias de Say, lord of Clun [Isabel is described as the daughter of Elias in a 12th-century narrative from the cartulary of Lilleshall Abbey, printed by Dugdale, Monasticon, vol.6, p.262, cited by Eyton, vol.9, p.358]. After William's death in 1160, Isabel remarried, before 1166, to Geoffrey de Vere (d. 1170) and, before 1188, to William Boterel; she died probably in 1199, and was survived by her third husband.

3. William FitzAlan, the son and heir of William by Isabel, who succeeded as a minor and apparently came of age in 1175. He married a daughter of Hugh de Lacy, Lord of Meath [Rot. Hundredorum, vol.2, pp.69, 76, 80, referring to land given to William FitzAlan with the sister of Walter de Lacy, cited by Eyton, vol.5, p.86, vol.10, p.126] and died in 1210 [Eyton, vol.7, p.244 citing the Annals of Dunstaple Priory; since printed in Annales Monastici, vol.3 (Rolls Series no 36; 1866)].

4. William FitzAlan, their son and heir, who succeeded as a minor, married Mary, the daughter of Thomas de Erdington, and died without issue, Easter 1215 [Eyton, vol.10, p.326, citing a copy of a letter from Thomas de Erdington to the king, referring to William's death at Easter and dated by Eyton to 1215 on internal evidence (Vincent's Collections, vol.3, p.98, College of Arms)]. Mary remarried to William de Duston, and both were living June 1220 [Curia Regis Rolls, vol.9, p.57].

5. John FitzAlan, his brother and heir, as given above.

(Note that Sanders gave an alternative reconstruction, in which the second William FitzAlan died 1212-1213 and was the grandfather, not the father, of William (d. 1215) and his brother John. But this is shown to be incorrect by the statement of a jury in 1223 that John FitzAlan's father, William, had been a minor in the custody of Henry II [Curia Regis Rolls, vol.11, p.69].)

[The error concerning the identity of the William FitzAlan who married Isabel de Say, and much of the evidence presented by Eyton, were pointed out by Joe Cochoit in April 2002. Peter Stewart pointed out the disagreement between Eyton's and Sanders's reconstructions in May 2002. Thanks to Cris Nash, Ian Fettes, Leo van de Pas, Rosie Bevan and Robert S. Baxter for many other helpful contributions during the ensuing discussion.]

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Curt Hofemann, curt_hofemann AT yahoo.com, in a post-em, wrote:

It appears the name of her father was Ellis/Elias/Helias de SAY/SAYE & not Ingram/Ingelram:

(Ellis de Say) whose da. and h., Isabel, brought it (the Lordship of Clun in Shropshire) to her husband, William FitzAlan [Ref: CP II:335 as corrected by CP XIV]

In CP V:391 it states "...Isabel, da. and h. of Ingram de Say..." Isabel was the daughter of Elias, not Ingram, de Say... Isabel, daughter and heir of Elias de Say, lord of Clun [Isabel is described as the daughter of Elias in a 12th-century narrative from the cartulary of Lilleshall Abbey, printed by Dugdale, Monasticon, vol.6, p.262, cited by Eyton, vol.9, p.358]. [Ref: Some corrections and additions to the Complete Peerage, FitzAlan (of Oswestry), Volume 5, page 391: http://www.medievalgenealogy.org.uk/cp/vol3.shtml]

As I have noted, after 1160, Guy le Strange, Sheriff of Shropshire was appointed to administer the Fitz Alan estates and Eyton gives many examples of entries by him with regard to these estates. In 1165, Geoffrey de Vere married Isabel de say and became lord of Clun in her right. This is recorded in the Liber Niger and numerous financial entries. Her third husband, William Boterell, would also become Baron of Clun in her right. William II Fitz Alan (her son) is not recorded with regard to Clun until 1203, after her death. She actually died in 1199 so presumably William FA (FITZALAN) was baron of Clun from 1199-1210.

Beginning in 1166, Geoffrey de Vere began receiving income from the Fitz Alan estates. This continues until 1170 when Eyton notes "Geoffrey de Vere died; but credit is taken for his full annuity out of the Fitz Alan estates up to Michaelmas. The word habuit is however used instead of the word habet in respect of the lands which had furnished the said annuity and which he had ceased to hold."

All this clearly shows that Isabel de Say, Lady of Clun married Geoffrey de Vere and that she is the same as the Isabel de Say who married William Fitz Alan (d. 1160). [Ref: Joe Cochoit message to soc.genealogy.medieval 19 May 2002]

Isabel Say, daughter and heir of Helias de Say, Lady of Clun, niece of Robert Say, Earl of Gloucester. [Ref: The Ancestors of Homer Beers James: http://homepages.rootsweb.com/~pmcbride/james/f019.htm#T55]

married 1st: William FITZALAN (no date given) [Ref: CP V:392, Holloway p10, Watney p391] (Holloway = "The Genealogy of Mary Wentworth, Who Became the Wife of William Brewster" by Naomi D. Holloway 1969 LDS Film 1738313)

married 2nd: Geoffrey de VERE before 1166 [Ref: Some corrections and additions to the Complete Peerage, FitzAlan (of Oswestry), Volume 5, page 391: http://www.medievalgenealogy.org.uk/cp/vol3.shtml]

married 3rd: William BOTEREL before 1188 [Ref: Some corrections and additions to the Complete Peerage, FitzAlan (of Oswestry), Volume 5, page 391: http://www.medievalgenealogy.org.uk/cp/vol3.shtml]

she died probably in 1199 [Ref: Some corrections and additions to the Complete Peerage, FitzAlan (of Oswestry), Volume 5, page 391: http://www.medievalgenealogy.org.uk/cp/vol3.shtml]

Please see Darrell Wolcott: Henry, the Forgotten Son of Cadwgan ap Bleddyn; http://www.ancientwalesstudies.org/id117.html. (Steven Ferry, April 5, 2020.)

https://www.wikitree.com/wiki/Saye-93