Phebe Post

https://www.findagrave.com/memorial/11564165/phebe-post

Phebe married first to Joseph Fish by Feb. 1795, when their first child was born. Soon after Joseph's death, she remarried to Ezekiel Post on 19 Aug. 1814 in York (Toronto), ON. She died in Halton Co., ON.

NOTE: Phebe's maiden surname has been reported as Butts by genealogists as early as 1938, based on family tradition. DNA matches between her descendants and Butts families in Ontario and New York now confirm that she was a Butts by birth. A preponderance of circumstantial and genetic evidence indicates that she was a daughter of Moses and Mary Greenman Butts, who were married in 1761 and whose family was connected to Kortright, Delaware Co., NY. Phebe and her husband lived in Kortright prior to their move to Ontario. Phebe was probably named for Mary Greenman Butts's mother, Phebe Cook Greenman. And Phebe Butts Fish probably named her second daughter, Mary Fish Kenney, to honor her own mother. (Phebe Butts Fish's first daughter, Mercy, was named for Joseph Fish's mother Mercy Palmer Fish, the paternal grandmother.)

The placement of Phebe Butts Fish in the family of Moses and Mary Greenman Butts helps to explain another tradition that came down in the family--that Phoebe's mother had the surname Lake. Instead of her mother, however, the Lake surname would be on her paternal side. Online family trees indicate that Moses Butts' mother and possibly also his paternal grandmother had the surname Lake. More research is needed into this.

Online trees also indicate that Oliver Butts (1766-1834) and Abraham Butts (1772-1858) were sons of Moses and Mary Greenman Butts. Phebe Butts Fish gave two of her sons the names Abraham and Oliver, the latter being uncommon and neither being Fish family names. This Oliver relocated from New York to Ontario, as did another reported brother, Moses Butts Jr.

Phebe Butts Fish was surely closely related to John Butts, whose 1814 marriage to Ann Parker in Toronto was witnessed by Phebe. She was probably also related to Elizabeth Butt, who witnessed Phebe's second marriage to Ezekiel Post that same year.

Unfortunately, many family trees at Ancestry.com and elsewhere online show Phebe to be the daughter of Jonathan Gwinn and Elizabeth Coleman, without qualification to explain that this identification was only ever a hypothesis. Jonathan and Elizabeth were Quakers who lived in Nantucket, MA, and later Pawling, NY. The theory that Mrs. Phebe Fish Post belonged to this family is based on a now-deceased descendant's (a near cousin of mine's) speculation, several decades ago, around the fact that Jonathan and Elizabeth Gwinn's daughter Phebe married a non-Quaker named Butts in 1789. According to records of the Oblong (Pawling) Meeting of the Society of Friends, this Phebe relocated to Kortright, Delaware Co., NY, in 1794, where Joseph and Phebe Fish are known to have lived. The speculation is that Mrs. Phebe Gwinn Butts was a widow in 1794 and married Joseph Fish about the time she arrived in Kortright. [I can speak with authority as to the hypothetical nature of this tentative identification as I was part of the original analysis and correspondence.]

There are several problems with the Gwinn theory. For one, Elizabeth Colemen Gwinn was born in 1722 and therefore would have been 50 years old at the time of Mrs. Phebe Fish Post's birth if it occurred in 1772. (If Phebe was born in 1767, the mother would have been 45, which is less problematic.) Secondly, Phebe Gwinn Butts is apparently referred to in Quaker meeting records as having relocated to Kortright, NY, in September 1794. If she is referred to at the time with the surname Butts, rather than Fish, it presents a chronological challenge since Joseph and Phebe Fish had their first child Abraham in Feb. 1795. In actuality, Phebe Gwinn Butts might have been the wife of one of Phebe Butts Fish's brothers or cousins. Family trees at Ancestry.com show Phebe Gwinn as the wife of Oliver Butts. On the other hand, Frank Doherty's The Settlers of the Beekman Patent ..., Vol. III (1995), p. 56, suggests that it was William Butts, son of Moses, who probably married Phebe, daughter of Jonathan Gwinn. Either way, there is no compelling reason to think that Phebe Gwinn Butts could have also married Joseph Fish.

Thanks to DNA testing, it can be stated with confidence that Mrs. Phebe Fish Post was not a Butts by marriage but rather by birth (which agrees with family tradition). As of February 2024, 150 autosomal DNA matches have been discovered between descendants of Joseph and Phebe Fish in my branch of their family and 53 descendants of five (other) children of Moses and Mary Greenman Butts, according to lineages shown by Ancestry's "ThruLines" feature. Of these matches, 40 are at highly significant levels of 20 centimorgans or greater (up to 40 centimorgans). In fact, Joseph's and Phebe's descendants in my branch of the family have a higher number of matches (at higher levels) than they do with descendants of Joseph Fish's siblings. The Gwinn hypothesis is in direct conflict with these DNA findings.

If you have evidence to support or refute the statements made above, please contact me through this memorial or via Ancestry.com.

-Joseph R. Klett