Lord of Scrivelsby

"Robert Marmion (d. 1185) married Elizabeth, daughter of Gervase, count of Rethel, who was brother to Baldwin II, king of Jerusalem. Robert Marmion the justiciar was his son." (Dictionary of National Biography, 1885-1900, Volume 36, "Marmion, Robert" by Charles Lethbridge Kingsford @ http://en.wikisource.org/wiki/Marmion,_Robert_(DNB00)

This only works if he was NOT the son of her sister.

http://fmg.ac/Projects/MedLands/ENGLISHNOBILITYMEDIEVAL3L-O.htm#Rob...

Robert [III] & his wife had two children:

1. ROBERT Marmion [IV] (-before Oct 1181). … m ---. The name of Robert’s wife has not been found. The Complete Peerage names “Elizabeth, daughter of Gervase, son of Hugh Count of Rethel” as the wife of Robert Marmion [IV] without citing any primary source on which it bases this statement[116]. As noted above, it is more likely that the daughter of Gervais de Rethel was the wife of Robert Marmion [III].

Robert [IV] & his wife had one child:

a) ROBERT Marmion [V] (-before [1217]). "Robert Marmion, fils de Robert" confirmed the donations to the abbey of Barberie made by his father by charter dated Oct 1181[117]. - see below.

--------------------------------------

From http://freepages.genealogy.rootsweb.ancestry.com/~mainegenie/MARMIO...:

ROBERT MARMION (ROBERT 1, ROGER 2, ROBERT 3)

b.c.1132 Tamworth Castle, Warwickshire

m. ELIZABETH ______

d. Oct. 1181 Tamworth

About 1175 Robert granted the church of Checkendon to the Priory of Coventry and also granted a third of Checkendon to William Marmion and confirms to William the gift of another third of Checkendon which he had earlier granted to William's brother, Geoffrey.(1)

There has been debate about whether or not William was actually the son of Robert or related to him at all. However, in Boarstall Chartulary No. 8 written 25 Jan. 1339 the monks of Coventry (who had been given the advowson of Checkendon by Robert in 1175), quitclaim the advowson of Checkendon to John Marmion:

Be it known to all so now as in the future that we, brother Henry prior of the Cathedral church of Coventry, and the convent of the same place, by our unanimous consent, remit and quit claim for ourselves and our successors, to John Marmion, lord of Checkenden, his heirs and assigns, forever, all right and claim that we had or in any way will have had in the advowson of the church of Checkenden, which we had by the gift and conveyance of Robert Marmion a certain ancestor [antecessoris] of the aforesaid John, for atonement and good of the soul of the father of the said Robert, for irreparable damage and enormous injuries, which the same father of the said Robert so extensively and maliciously inflicted on our church and on our predecessors [predecessoribus], to have and to hold the aforesaid advowson, etc. forever. And so that the souls of the ancestors [antecessorum] of the said John should not, God forbid, incur either penalty or peril of annoyance and injury by whatever cause by our predecessors [predecessoribus] and our church and also us, as mentioned before, because of those matters hitherto mentioned, we, completely motivated by a pure and unanimous desire in consideration of charity, insofar as we are able, absolve for the present the souls of the ancestors [antecessorum] of the foresaid John, as well as his own, by our full chapter, from every constraint of guilt by which it can be reasonably believed that they were constrained on the foresaid occasion. In whose . . . etc. sealing, done in our chapter house at Coventry on the feast of the conversion of Saint Paul the Apostle the year of the lord 1300 thirty eight (i.e., 25 January 1338/9).

The argument comes with the use of the words "antecessor" and "predecessoribus". Antecessor has a double meaning... it can either mean ancestor or refer to the predecessor in a title. BUT, the monks used the word "predecessoribus" to refer to their own predecessors and three times used the word "antecessorum" to refer to John's relationship to Robert. Seems to me that they have two different meanings... ancestor vs. predecessor in the title... and "antecessorum" in this case means "ancestor". Also, the monks were giving absolution to John for Robert's transgressions against their order so one would wonder why they would do that if John wasn't related to Robert. I don't think John would feel the need to have the monks absolve his soul for the sins of some unrelated person who happened to own the property 150 years previously.

There is a similar document from c.1270 concerning a dispute about the advowson of Checkendon church with Robert Marmion, who had made the grant to the Priory of Coventry, being described as "antecessoris" of the underage heir, John Marmion.(2)

In the Lincolnshire Archives is an enfeoffment, c.1160-70, by Pichot de Lacellis, by the consent of his wife and heirs, of Ralph de Bolebec of the land which Turold de Bolebec held for a day and a night of Robert Marmion. This grant was made in the hands of A. de Mundaville at Stau and the witnesses were Hamelin the dean, Hugh de Haillai, Gilbert de Novilla, Geoffrey Turs, Richard de Croxtuns, Walter de Kilvingholm, Henry de Kirkeby, Turold de Bolebec, Alan de Hallai, Ralph did his homage to Pichot at Fulstow in the house of Ralph his bailiff and gave ten marks to him and one mark to his wife.(4)

Robert was a witness to a charter, c.1175-9, from King Henry II confirming the agreement between the prior and monks of Canterbury Cathedral Priory and Lambin Frise.(3)

There is also a charter dated from the late 12th century concerning Robert Marmion, for the weal of his soul, that of his wife Philippa and his predecessors and successors, and for the absolution of his journey to Jerusalem, grants to the Abbey 500 pounds in Angevine money for the building of the church. He also grants some lands in Stoke and Chekenden in exchange for a rent of £10 which he had assigned to the wardrobe of the Abbey on his manor of Berwick. He will also retain the services of William M. .. and Hugh de Migehan for their fees in Stoke and Chekenden, and the Abbey will pay to the monks of St. Thomas [of Acon, hospital in London] two pounds of wax.(5) Which of the several Robert de Marmions this concerns is uncertain at this point.

Issue-

• I. Robert- b.c.1156, m. Maud de Beauchamp (b.c.1170 Salwarpe, Worcestershire), d. May 1218 Tamworth, Warwickshire
• 5II. WILLIAM- b.c.1158 Tamworth Castle, Warwickshire, d.c.1220 Checkenden, Oxfordshire
• III. Geoffrey- b.c.1160
• IV. Mabel- b.c.1162, m. Hugh de Say, d. Sept. 1210

Ref:

• (1) Boarstall Chartulary- No. 1, 20-3
• (2) Placitorum in Domo Capitulari Westmonasteriensi Asservatorum Abbreviato- Great Britain Record Commission, London, 1811- p. 182 (3) Canterbury Cathedral Archives- CCA-DCc-ChAnt/C/1207
• (4) Lincolnshire Archives- The Holywell Collection- 87/35
• (5) Barbery, Abbey of Notre Dame- Ord. Cist. Dioc. Bayeux- John Rylands Library- Manchester University- BMC/43
• Ancestral Roots of Certain American Colonists Who Came to America before 1700- Frederick Weis, 7th ed., Genealogical Publishing Co., Baltimore, 1992- 7-35, 246A-32
• The Ancestry of Thomas Bradbury (1611-1695) and His Wife Mary (Perkins) Bradbury (1615-1700) of Salisbury, Massachusetts- John Brooks Threlfall, J.B. Threlfall, Madison, Wisconsin, 1988- p. 282
• The Complete Peerage of England, Scotland, Ireland, Great Britain and the United Kingdom, Extant, Extinct, or Dormant- George Edward Cokayne Ed., St. Catherine Press, London, 1910- Vol. 8, p. 508; Vol. 9, p.258
• Conquerors and Conquered in Medieval Wales- Ralph Alan Griffiths, St. Martin's Press, NY, 1994- p. 199

  ---

• Reference: Geneanet Genealogy - SmartCopy: Mar 2 2020, 5:09:38 UTC