Dutch name / language help

Sorry, but I missed something? What mess? Ann I assume you merged the two? What about all the maiden names/surnames from the one profile? I tend to save that info and put it in the notes, for managers who wrote the other name? Did anyone else have info on this person?

I didn't merge the 2 profiles.
I added the other names to her profile under 'also know as'.
But to make it clearer for you i added the names to the 'about me' section.

Hi Ann, I saw the othe first names in the "also know as". Thank you for keeping that. Forgive me but I'm still confused. I can't find the other profile, if you didn't merge it, I don't know what happened. I was able to still see the names when trying to do a search, but when I click on either of the two names that I'd wanted to merge, I come to the profile that you added the other names to.

The two I'm talking about are Aafje Amak & Aeltje "Olive" Amak Cozynszen (Janse (Vankouwenhoven))

What are the numerous surnames. Amak seems like her maiden, Cozynszen is her married. But what about Janse & Vankouwenhoven?

Thanks for your help!
Jill

You can have a look at the SUR-name-page for COZYNSZEN:

* http://www.geni.com/surnames/COZYNSZEN
Or search with sur-name AMAK :
* http://www.geni.com/surnames/AMAK
or: VANKOUWENHOVEN ~ van KOUWENHOVEN (more likely Dutch)
* http://www.geni.com/surnames/VANKOUWENHOVEN
* http://www.geni.com/surnames/KOUWENHOVEN

I added a link and the information from the link. It's a long story about the family.

Jill,
I called it a mess because it was a mess, i deleted my post after Ann made those changes as it no longer seemed a mess.
The profiles were merged by Cecilie who also added you as a manager Jill, i'm not sure why Cecilie did not post here, perhaps she messaged you directly.

Ann,
Why have you given Aeltje the middle name Janse? Janse is her father's middle name and would most likely be a patronym, meaning his father (Aeltje's grandfather) was named Jan or Jans (ie John).
It would be very unusual for Aeltje to have the name Janse, not impossible of course and i have not followed the link.

All,
Reading the About Me, if the article quoted is factual then the profiles are still a mess.
According to the article Aeltje Olive Theunise Cozine is NOT the mother of Rev. Cornelius Cozine (Dominee) that is the whole point of the letter!
His father ( Jacobus Jacobus Cozynszen ) was married twice, first to Aeltje Olive Theunise Cozine (c1675-c1715) then to Aeltje van Wyck (c1675-d).
Aeltje, who had previously been married to Gerret Jansen van Couwenhoven (c1675-1712) which would explain why the profile yesterday had the maiden name "Janse (Vankouwenhoven)", does not have a profile on Geni.

I think the situation would be rectified if "Janse" was removed from Aeltje Olive Theunise Cozine and then a second wife was created for
Jacobus Jacobus Cozynszen named Aeltje van Wyck. The children of Jacob should then be split so that Gerrit Cozyn and Aefje Van Wyck remain the children of Aafje but Rev. Cornelius Cozine (Dominee) is moved to the new relationship between Aeltje and Jacob. Aeltje should also have at least one other child named John/Jan van Couwenhoven(c1710-d).

It would be especially good if people post here to report what the planned/actual actions are.

Typo, last sentence should read:

It would be especially good if people post here to report what their planned/actual actions are.

not to be off-topic, but just a remark about using the name COZYNS-zen -what means the son of Cozyns- or COZINE of nowadays KOZIJN: it was not rare to marry your cousin, so in that case many people could get ---before Napoleon introduced a constant Fathers~FAMILY-name--- this Sur-name too. Maybe my -real- cousin Jilles Pieter Kozijn knows more about the origine of his grand-grand-grand-fathers-name KOZIJN. -jMu-

It doesn't take many clicks to get back to Cosyn Gerritsen van Putten who is a MP curated by Ann (perhaps explaining her presence :))

Jabcob's father is Gerrit Cosynszen van Putten which reflect the fact that he is the son of Cozyn (the MP), where did the "van Putten" come from? Where has it gone?

Scrolling back to Jill's first post here, perhaps the merge was incorrect?
Perhaps one profile was Aefje and the other was Aeltje and both having the surname "Amak" was the mistake?

Putten is a place in the province GELDERLAND - NL
* http://nl.wikipedia.org/wiki/Putten_(Gelderland)

My head is spinning. Yes I wish that the merge had waited. My whole reason for coming here was questioning the names, the meaning of the names and whether or not the two women were the same or not. I knew that either possibility could be the case. For all I know he was married to two sisters or cousins. I do think they were the same, but possibly the name was completely wrong on one, or the following info down the tree branch was wrong. Unfortunately the thing that makes it hard to explain now is how both women had a son w/the same name married to the same woman. - Which is what make me almost certain they should be merged. My head is also spinning trying to read that link about who married who. That link made one thing clearer for me, the last names came from some where.

Completely unrelated to the Dutch name question...but related to the profiles. I merged Garret Cosyn with Garrit Cozine, the profile I was talking about above. In both trees he was married to the same person. But during the merge I never got a conflict of info notice. The conflict was death date. Currently it says he died the same year he was born, but he married and had children. It's been over 24 hours and still nothing. I asked Geni about this type of thing, they told me the ! notice would pop up later, that it just might take a while. Luckily I copied the info from each profile prior to the merge, so I can copy the info in, if the ! conflict of info box never pops up. Anybody have this happen?

Aefje & Aeltje can't be the same in Dutch.
Aefje = Eefje
Aeltje = Aaltje
but in baptism-registers is was the pope's servants writing them down, not the parents and it happened also that the priest or who-ever was the one in town authorised to write in the big books of the churches had to make a mistake for he promised the fathers not to tell the mothers..... you see?

Jeanette, No I don't understand all of what you wrote. I get that names can very easily be written down wrong. Which is kind of what I was wondering about. Names being written wrong when a child was baptised, or in recent times, typing/writing a name down could be done incorrectly. I know at least for me, a name in another language that I don't recognize, I wouldn't even know if it were incorrect. But I don't understand the part - "had to make a mistake for he promised the fathers not to tell the mothers..... you see?"
Are you saying that the father, as in a priest father or birth father knows of the mistake but not the mother?
Aefje = Eefje
Aeltje = Aaltje
Do either of those names mean Olive? In the one profile it seemed like someone might have been attempting to translate one of the Dutch names in to English? Or Olive was a nickname?
Also, do you understand the link that Ann added? I'd like to sort this out to the best of my/our collective ability, but I feel like I opened a can of worms that is even more confusing than I originally thought.

What is my next step? How do I even begin to fix this?
I really appreciate everyone's help! Thank you so much!!!
Jill

Oh almost forgot, I wanted to ask about this too "not to be off-topic, but just a remark about using the name COZYNS-zen -what means the son of Cozyns- or COZINE of nowadays KOZIJN"

Is Kozijn the way Dutch spell the last name now??? I see several variations of the name here in the US, and assume that we are some how related, but that spelling I wouldn't have guessed. Again I think it's me not understanding the language. My mom's maiden name is Cozine.

it is a story that the parents not be able to write had to trust the authorities of the baptism-records to write down the good information. But what if two brothers and their wives, nearly married at the same period and pregnant after that, got both daughters they wanted to name in tradition to the grandmothers....

This is just one example how we can never be sure about ancestry in periods when people could give their signature, but where not able to control what happened after the ceremony.

Also a lot of parents not able to get children soon enough after the marriage got visits of clerks of the church to inform them it was their duty to get a lot an descendants for the honour of the Lord. Also that gave rise to suspicions about fatherhood and ability's of farmer's son to get son to inherite the estate.

And... in some parts of Holland with a very uncommon religion-tradition -On the Veluwe for instance- it was normal to wait with the marriage till the man had proven to be able to make the daughter pregnant.... For that purpose farms in those regions had special doors to the bedrooms of the bride to visit her earlier than the ceremony. Also a way to ensure son a/o daughters to marry sons of other big farmers to be sure do to have worked all life without a pension.

If you like, there is here in Utrecht a research-centre especially focused on these kinds of cultural inheritage in Holland, but I have to look at the URL, ok? groeten van jeannette from hol;and, europe.

Hi Jill,
you're definitely in the right place to be discussing this.
As i said yesterday, i am sad that the merge went ahead without any discussion as we cannot now compare the two profiles.
As JeanNette says Aefje & Aeltje are not the same name, perhaps imagine Angela and Anna for example. To someone from another culture those names might seem very similiar but we know they a certianly not the same.
Regarding the spelling of Cozine, my maths teacher in high school always spelt it Cosine ;)
Spelling of names changes all the time for all sorts of reasons.
Smith, Smyth, Smithe, try reading Shakespeare in it's original form some day. The Bard wrote in English but you'll be hard pressed to understand what he has written, for that matter there's dispute about how to spell his name!
Seeing Olive in the profile looked very odd to me too but perhaps geography/history might explain it (if it is not just a mistake). Perhaps when Aeltje emigrated to America her name was too hard for the Engels to pronounce so she started calling herself Olive?? Just a guess based on no facts what so ever!
I'll have a look at Ann's link later today or over the weekend.

Jill Anne Bogdanowicz-Wilson and Alex Moes

Fortunately there are good records for New Amsterdam (even if the name spelling variations will make anyone lose their marbles). For fun (not so much) because of the change in administration during this period, from Holland to England, and the origins from Norway (if they really are from Norway), it can be very confusing.

I've uploaded a Brouwer compilation and added some more links to the profiles. But basically Ann and Alex have the right of it: the solution is to make a new Aeltje profile (2nd wife of Jacobus Cosine, I am "normalizing" the spelling temporarily!). It looks like her maiden name was Van Wyck, she was the widow of Janszen Van Couwenhoven or Van Kouwenhoven (a name that later evolved to Conover) and the mother of Cornelius Dominee Cozine. In the English records she would have had each of these names successively and her death record would be under Cosine.

The only thing I'm seeing differently from Alex is that perhaps they were for some reason using patronymics for women in the Dutch Reformed Church records?

I still can't explain the "Olive" nickname.

As an FYI this is how I do multiply married American women. It is rare for me to find death records or census records under maiden name and it's one of the main ways I source my ancestresses.

First name: formal name
Middle name: yes, we had them starting around 1700
Birth surname: maiden name
Last name: name at death

If there are more marriages I use the "Also known as" field and I put spelling variations there too. So if Aeltje were my family I would put Aelte van Kouwenhoven in the AKA field, never the maiden name field.

I guess the merge(s) can't be undone...but I do have the names of the two profiles that did exist before the merge.

The one that I managed and added: Aafje Amak
The other: Aeltje "Olive" Amak Cozynszen (Janse (Vankouwenhoven))

They were each married to Jacobus Cozynszen. Each had a son Garrit/Garret Cozine/Cozyn. Garrit Cozine was the profile that I managed. He is my 7th g-grandfather.

After the first merge was done for the two A. Amak ladies, I jumped the gun assuming that someone from this discussion felt it should be merged; so I merged the two Garrets. I did copy that info as well, so if it makes more sense to recreate those profiles, I've got it.

Erica, I looked at the file you added. I'm not used to reading this type of linear tree. I agree with your idea of adding the various names in the AKA field. I have no issue with bringing back the two profiles; but what do I with the two Garrets? Do I bring them both back as well? Which lady would have been my g-grandmother?

Once you all read the documents that Erica & Ann had attached, maybe we could come to some agreement on what should be done?

Thank you all!
Jill

Jill as I understand it from reading the various links and the compiled tree, look at the start to an "overview" here:

Jacobus Jacobus Cozynszen

lst m. to Aefje AMMK (1707) children: Gerret bap 26 Oct. 1707; (died young?) Gerarit bap. 23 Oct. 1709; Aefje Cosyn bap./born 1711.
2nd m. widow Aeltje (unknown); child: Cornelius b. 1718..

In other words, there were two Gerret / Gerarit / Gerit sons of Wife 1 and Jacobus. The 1st, b 1707, probably died young. The 2nd, b 1709 would then be your ancestor.

The child of Wife 2 and Jacobus is Cornelius. Wife 2 also had a child by her 1st van Couhaven husband.

Simple as pie isn't it. :)

Does it make sense?

Now I'm going to deconstruct the Wife 2 profile name. I will defer to the Dutch language skills of others for what it "should" be; Jill I'm probably about the same level of "sort of get it some" on our Dutch tree as you are. And to my thinking, that she had a Gerrit son assigned was incorrect.

Aeltje "Olive" Amak Cozynszen (Janse (Vankouwenhoven))

Aeltje = Aeltje
"Olive" = some whacky thing. I did see something that could have transcribed to Olive on an Ammak reference.
Amak = definitely wrong, that's Jacobus wife 1
Cozynszen = when did they normalize / Anglicize it to Cozine or Cosine?
Janse = not unless Dutch Reformed Church records say so
Vankouwenhoven = that is a bad writing out of husband 1's surname. I'm sure it would have been closer to van Kouwenhoven. Certainly not her maiden name.
van Wyck = maiden name as per Alex's link above

Does this help? Enter the birth / death / baptism dates & locations in the Jacobus & Wife 1 profiles if you would be so kind, the citations are good ones.

Sorry folks, i have a day job that interfers with me replying immediately.

"...perhaps they were for some reason using patronymics for women in the Dutch Reformed Church records?"
Dutch women did have patronymics, it's very common though not universal in the Netherlands at the time, no idea about Nieuw Amsterdam.
BUT... Janse is not her patronym, her father is named Theunis and his patronym is Janse, or is it a middle name? Either way Janse would not be part of her name in Holland, perhaps it is a Yankee thing?

"van Kouwenhoven" may or may not link that family to a village near Rotterdam, South Holland.

"In other words, there were two Gerret / Gerarit / Gerit sons of Wife 1 and Jacobus. The 1st, b 1707, probably died young. The 2nd, b 1709 would then be your ancestor."

Be careful assuming the first died young, just because there is another child with the same name born a few years later does not prove the younger is dead (it makes sense in a western 21st century way but not in 18th century Holland).

Refer to second paragraph of this very good website (in English):
http://www.traceyourdutchroots.com/roots/pitfalls.html

"When a child died, the first child (of the same sex) born after its death often had the same name. But if you find two children with the same name you cannot conclude one of them died young: Sometimes two children would get the same name, because they were named after different relatives with the same name."

So there were 2 Gerits, #1 b 1707, #2 b 1709. We cannot assume #1 died. However there is no further record (?) so I would believe Jill's line is from #2. Easiest fix to me is to add a Gerit 1 profile and edit the Garret Cozyn profile with the #2 data.

The Brouwer line - Jill's line - has a nice document of the immigrant Johannes "Jan" Brouwer here, just went up a couple of months ago:

https://sites.google.com/site/janbrouwerdna/home

Janse is the patronymic for Jacobus Wife 2, Theunise is the patronymic for Wife 1.

Jill - please don't feel too bad about the Mis merge, you were working with an already screwed up profile. It's much better to do it this way, working from the sources.

Alex - the ethnic diversity of New Amsterdam in 1707 was 60% Dutch, 40% everything else. Flatlands however was quiet farmland in the country - Brooklyn.:). There would have been up to 4 sets of records, equally valid. Also variances depending on interactions with the English. Some families were still entirely mostly Dutch speaking as late as 1800. Some families mingled etc. as early as 1640s.

There is available will data. In commerce oriented New Amsterdam -> New York you always chase the money, honey.:):)

"Janse is the patronymic for Jacobus Wife 2."
Ah, that explains my confusion, i was focusing on Ms Amak.

FYI

When I made the Garrit Cozine merge, the conflict of info symbol did not pop up, I've contacted Geni, http://help.geni.com/requests/22670 about this problem in general; and they have asked me to NOT resolve his profile(s). So for now I'm asking the same of you all.

But after geni resolves why the site is not showing the conflicts in a timely manner, I will fix the two Garret profiles. Here is what should have popped up, showing the conflict. He sent me this link to show me it's not lost. I thought you'd all be interested.

Jill