Margaret verch Duplory - Any real sources? I don't believe she existed.

This gentleman uses reliable compilers

http://wc.rootsweb.ancestry.com/cgi-bin/igm.cgi?op=GET&db=gudlo...

Is this a vanity pedigree book?

Davies, Roderick D., A Pedigree of the Royal Tribes of Wales(Shawbury: Rhodri ap Dafydd, 1999.), p. 13.

Looks like it to me.

I hate these things. They look so real.

The name of the "press" is the author's name, translated into Welsh, and the location, Shawbury, is not known for hosting publishing houses.

I think it is good, actually, it is cited in the current Wikipedia artlcle.

But I think Ive found her.

Stewart Baldwin has her as unknown I think

16388. Rhodri Molwynog ab Idwal Iwrch, d. ca. 754 [AC] [HG.1: "Rotri map Iutguaul"]

http://www.rootsweb.ancestry.com/~medieval/llywelyn.htm

Llywelyn ap Iorwerth ancestor table

But Hal Bradley has her as FERMAEL

http://wc.rootsweb.ancestry.com/cgi-bin/igm.cgi?op=GET&db=blodg...

Fermael 1, 2 was born 700 in , Gwynedd, Wales. She married Rhodri "Molwynog" ab IDWAL King of Wales on 721 in , Gwynedd, Wales.

1Davies, Roderick D., A Pedigree of the Royal Tribes of Wales (Shawbury: Rhodri ap Dafydd, 1999.), p. 13, Los Angeles Public Library, 929.729 D263.

You might want to check soc.Gen.med for discussion.

Yes, that makes more sense.

(That the self published book is quoted in wikipedia doesnt cut ice with me, alas.)

Fermael is a name that COULD exist.

The book is in copyright, cannot snippet - view in.

https://books.google.com/books?id=_esuAAAAMAAJ&lpg=PA104&ot...

The Royal Tribes of Wales By Philip Yorke page 84 gives Rhodri "Molwynog" as ancestor of George lll:

George the Third, the eldest son, by Augusta of Saxgotha, of Frederick, Prince of Wales, the son of George the Second, the son of George the First, the son of Ernest Augustus, Elector of Hanover, by Sophia, the daughter of Frederick Elector Palatine, and Elizabeth, the daughter of James the First, the son of Lord Darnley, and Mary, Queen of Scotland, the daughter of James the Fifth, the son of James the Fourth by Margaret, the eldest daughter of Henry the Seventh by Elizabeth, the eldest daughter of Edward the Fourth, the eldest son of Richard Duke of York, the son of Richard of Conisburg Earl of Cambridge, by Anne daughter and heiress of Roger Earl of Marche, the son of Edmund, Earl of Marche, by Philippa daughter and sole heiress of Lionel Duke of Clarence, the third son of Edward the Third. This Edmund was the son of Edmund Mortimer, the son of Roger, the first Earl of Marche of this family, the son of Edmund, the son of Roger, the son of Ralph by Gwladys Ddu, or the Black, the heiress of her brother Dafydd ab Llywelyn, the son of Llywelyn ab lorwerth, or Leolinus Magnus, Prince of North Wales, the eldest son of lorwerth drwyn-dwnn, the eldest son of Owain Gwynedd, the son of Gruffudd ab Cynan, the son of Cynan, the son of lago or James, the son of Idwal, the son of Meurig, the son of Idwal foel, the son of Anarawd, the eldest son of Rhodri fawr, or Roderick the Great, the son of Merfyn frych, and Esyllt, the daughter and heiress of the last Prince Cynan Tindaethwy, the son of Rhodri Molwynog, the son of Idwal iwrch (or the roe) the son of Cadwaladr, the last King of the Britons, who abdicated, and died at Rome in 688. His present gracious Majesty is right heir, in lineal succession, to the British, Cambro-British, Anglo-Saxon, Anglo-Norman, English and Scottish Kings.

I feel like I spend half my time on Geni being the Medieval Web Tree Name Police. It is sad, really, sitting around bursting all those balloons...

Ha ha ha! Even better. Thank you for pasting this all in.

So even THIS source doesn't give a name for Rhodri's wife.

It has been cited as a source for a woman it doesnt mention?

Author looks OK. Actually he deserves a Geni tree. :):)

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/John_Davies_(historian)_

John Davies (25 April 1938 – 16 February 2015) was a Welsh historian, and a television and radio broadcaster. He attended university at Cardiff and Cambridge and taught Welsh at Aberystwyth. He wrote a number of books on Welsh history. ...

In 2005, Davies received the Glyndŵr Award for an Outstanding Contribution to the Arts in Wales during the Machynlleth Festival. He won the 2010 Wales Book of the Year for Cymru: Y 100 lle i'w gweld cyn marw.

http://www.walesonline.co.uk/news/wales-news/autobiography-celebrat...

Autobiography celebrates life of ‘one of the most influential Welshmen of our era'
06:35, 17 DEC 2015
BY RACHAEL MISSTEAR

re: It has been cited as a source for a woman it doesnt mention?

No, it's what came up on google when I put in the keyword "pedigree of Royal tribes of wales."

:)

But it looks like a reliable, if Antiquarian, study.

In other words, Davies wrote a short (67 page) monograph; Yorke wrote a substantive tome that is not in copyright ... and not cited. :):)

Well we shall no longer malign him!

But!

Margaret verch Duplory!

Not there!

https://books.google.com/books?id=NYwNAAAAIAAJ&pg=PA231#v=onepa...

A History of Wales from the Earliest Times to the Edwardian Conquest, Volume 1
By Sir John Edward Lloyd page 231

The successors of Cadwaladr were men of no note, whose sway did not extend, it would seem, beyond the limits of Anglesey. The death of Rhodri Molwynog, son of Idwal, son of Cadwaladr, is recorded under the year 754,13 and the family then passes out of sight until in the early part of the ninth century two sons of Rhodri, Hywel and Cynan, are found battling against each other for the lordship of M6n. In 816 the death of Cynan, whose chief stronghold was in the commote of Tindaethwy, left the field clear for Hywel, who no doubt ruled over Anglesey until his death in 825. When Hwyel died, the male line of Maelgwn Gwynedd was at an end and its claims were transferred to another house by Ethyllt, the daughter of his brother Cynan.14

11" Eisteddfa arbennig " is the phrase of the Dimetian Code (LL. i. 346).
""Rotri rexbrittonum moritur " (Harl. MS. 3859 in Cymr.ix. 161). Other sources add nothing of value save Rhodri's pedigree and distinguishing epithet, the latter not yet satisfactorily explained (Cymr. ix. 169-70; Bruts, 257; Cymr. viii. 87).
14 The chief authority is Harl. MS. 3859 (chronicle and pedigrees). Ann. Ult. also record s.a. 815 (= 816) the death of " Conan mac Ruadhrach rex Britonum ". It has been very generally assumed that Merfyn Frych succeeded immediately on the death of Cynan Tindaethwy; on this point see chap. vii. note 145.
"Rec. Cam. 63-5.

Apparently the title of "rex brittonum" was only used once more.

re:Margaret verch Duplory! Princess of Ireland!

Yeah, that all seems spurious. Needs to be in the AKA though.

Yep. Rhodri ap Idwal was just not that important.

And for me, if we are going to put things in Geni such as Margaret verch Duplory, Irish Princess from the 8 th century, then we need to be able to answer such things as: why was an early Irish princess named Margaret? Why have we never heard of her father? How did a King Of Ireland get a French name? How did a really obscure Welsh nobleman end up with this Irish princess in the first place?

Enquiring minds wish to know.

https://books.google.com/books?id=28A1AAAAMAAJ&pg=PA62#v=onepag...

Page 62 / 63 of Archaeologia Cambrensis. BRUT Y SAESON. TRANSLATION BY THE LATE REV. H. PARRY OF LLANASA.

721. —Ethelward was made king of West Sex, and his queen was Frideswida; and she gave to the church of Winchester, of her father's estate, Cantonam; and her husband increased the gift out of his affection for her. And in that year died Beli vab Elphin; and there was an extensive war between Rhodri Molwynawg and the Saxons in Cornwall, and the affair of Garth Maelawg and Chad Pencoed in South Wales; and in all these contests the Britons were victorious.

754.—Died Rhodri Molwynog the king of the Britons.

My comment: 721 is given as the year of Rhodri's marriage. Spoils of war?

I think we can answer the "Margaret" question the usual way: the pedigree submitter's name was PUT IN THE WRONG FIELD of the submission to the LDS of her pedigree.

According to Davies, Fermael was born in Gwynedd. Is there something about Irish Wars at this time?

You could try the pedigrees from the Jesus College but I don't see wives

https://archive.org/stream/ycymmrodor08cymmuoft#page/84/mode/2up

No, wives don't show up in those genealogies. Unless really important.

Fermael is an excellent Welsh name by the way, but it is a mans name.

Not buying that, either.

So far, i believe Rhodri's wife is N.N.

We didn't see the Davies directly, right? The citation for Fermael gives him, along with a web tree. But I would like to see what he says directly.

That Davies isn't the one who self published, by the way..

Oh, no, wait, the citation for Fermael is from the self published Davies, so never mind.

Nope nope nopety nope.

There is no there there.

you can go to the library and look up the book. Hal Bradley didn't mistranscribe his citation.

uncited pedigree for Fermael here

http://wc.rootsweb.ancestry.com/cgi-bin/igm.cgi?op=PED&db=:2155...

This would make her daughter of Edwal the Roo

https://books.google.com/books?id=-gEIAAAAQAAJ&pg=PA6&lpg=P...

and sister of Roderike .... who was king after Rhodri and before Cynan (I think?). Unless this Fermael has been mixed up as our Rhodri's sibling.

Roderike was also spelled Rodericus, Roderi, Rhodri, and Rodericke. He was King of No Wales and Brytain. He served as King from 720-750. He is buried in Carleson on the Usk.

I think Fermael may be sibling and not wife, Roderick being another name for Rhodri.

https://books.google.com/books?id=4sgUAAAAYAAJ&lpg=PA250&ot...

676 - Cadwallader, son to Cadwallo, of him and bis name, see before. Nor think I the British and English chronicles concerning him reconcileable. In him the chief monarchy and glory of the British failed.

683 - Ivor, son to Alan, king of Armorie Britain. This Ivor they make (but I examine it not now) lne, king of West-Saxons, in our monks; that is, he which began the Peter-pence to Rome.

720 - Roderic Molwinoc, Sod of Edwal Ywrch (r).

755 - Conan Tindaethwy, son of Roderic.

near 820 - Mervin Urich, in right of his wife Esylht, daughter and heir to Roderic.

So Wikipedia knows "Edward, father of Fermael" as

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Idwal_Iwrch Idwal Iwrch or Idwal the Roebuck.

son of King Cadwaladr ap Cadwallon (reigned c. 655 – 682) and the father of King Rhodri Molwynog (died 754).

http://www.maryjones.us/ctexts/h01.html

A tall man conferring with others
All of Prydain under one rule--
The Cymry's best son, Cadwaladyr

Whoever comes after one so great
His abilities, are they not worthless?
After Cadwaladyr, Idwal.

Gwenddydd
I ask you gently,
Far-famed, best of men--I ask
Who will rule after Idwal?

Myrddin
There will rule after Idwal
As a result of another being summon
white-shielded Howel, son of Cadwaladyr.

Gwenddydd
I ask my far-famed twin broth
Brave in war-cries
Who will rule after Howel?

Myrddin
I will tell of his great War, Gwenddydd
before our parting
After Howel, Rhodri.

Cynan will come to Mona [Anglesey]
Failing in his authority,
And before the son of Rodri is called
The son of Caeledigan will

----

doesn't sound like Eddie was a king.

Correction. According to this poem, the kings were:

Cadwaladyr
Idwal
white-shielded Howel, son of Cadwaladyr [brother to Idwal?]
Rhodri
The son of Caeledigan [name?]
Cynan, son of Rhoddri

we have a reference for "Margaret of Ireland" as Cynan's mother here:

http://wc.rootsweb.ancestry.com/cgi-bin/igm.cgi?op=GET&db=aet-t...

David Nash Ford, Early British Kingdoms: Geneaologies: North Welsh Royal Pedigree, 2000

This rootsweb database is a respectable effort; I wouldn't dismiss it lightly.

From http://www.earlybritishkingdoms.com/bios/cynandgd.html

Cynan Dindaethwy was the son of King Rhodri Molwynog of Gwynedd and his wife, Princess Margaret of Ireland, presumably born in the cwmwd of Ynys Mon (Anglesey) which gave him his epithet. His father was probably quite elderly at the time of Cynan's birth, since it appears that the son was too young to take the throne in AD 754, when it was seized by Lord Caradog ap Meirion of Rhos. Perhaps, the people of Gwynedd thought Rhodri too old to father a child, for there were certainly rumours, recorded in the Red Book of Hergest, that Cynan was really the son of the Royal woodsman, Calydigan.

----

So the next stop is the Red Book of Hergest.