The alternative genealogy of Wilke is not quite so unsatisfactory. This has John born in Yorkshire around 1623 and dying at an undetermined date in Nottinghamshire where his father came from; while Roger is born in Westmeath, Ireland around 1650 and dies there around 1701. It is compatible with John settling in Ireland, and Westmeath is where the Norths did establish themselves. On the other hand, it presents no connection with the Lords North of Guilford, who are believed to be ancestors of the Irish family in some way - http://www.bomford.net/IrishBomfords/Chapters/Chapter16/norths_of_i...
That web page presents a genealogy of the Norths starting from John, with Roger having sons Joseph, Caleb, Elizabeth, Roger, Susanna and Mary, of whom Caleb and three others come up in the Wilke and Fleischer genealogies, and Caleb alone in the Plunkett genealogy. So the problem is not Roger, it is his ancestry.
The page http://www.bomford.net/IrishBomfords/Chapters/Chapter16/Images/coff...
reproduces a magazine article which gives fuller information on the North settlement in Westmeath.
I am hoping that those who contributed parts of this story may be able to give some sources which would enable this mess to be sorted out, and since there is a “master profile” attached to John North the curator advise how to reorganise the records. I have derived my genealogy from the Bomford site above, down to my ancestor John Roger North (c.1787-1853).
The Lord North family seems to be as follows, based on Wikipedia (W), thepeerage.net based on Burke’s Peerage (B), and The Life of the Right Hon. Francis North, Baron Guilford ... (N):
Edward, 1st Baron North (c. 1496-1564) (W,B,N) m. (1) Alice Squier/Squire (W,B); (2) Margaret Charlsey née Butler (?-1575) (W,B)
- 1a: by (1) Roger, 2nd Baron North (1530/1-1600) (W,B,N) m. Winifred Rich (B) /Dudley née Rich (N)
-- 2a: Sir John North (?-1597) (W,B,N) m. Dorothy Dale (W,B,N)
--- 3a: Dudley, 3rd Baron North (1581/2-1665/6/7/8) (W,B,N) m. Frances Brockett/Brocket (?-1677) (W,B,N)
---- 4a: Dudley, 4th Baron North (1602-1677) (W,B,N) m. Anne Montagu (?-1680/1) (W,B,N)
---- 4b: 2nd son/John North (W,N)
---- 4c: a daughter/Dorothy North (c. 1605-1698) (W,B,N) m. (1) Richard Lennard, 13th Baron Dacre (1596-1630) (B,N); (2) Challoner Chute (B)
---- 4d: a daughter (N)
--- 3b: Roger North, sea traveller (c. 1582-c. 1652) (W,N)
-- 2b: Sir Henry North (B)
- 1b: by (1) Sir Thomas North, translator (1535-1604) (W,B,N)
- 1c: by (1) Christiana/Christian North (?-1563/4) (W,B), m. William Somerset, 3rd Earl of Worcester (c. 1527-1588/9) (W,B)
- 1d: by (1) Mary North, m. Henry/Unknown Scrope, 9th Baron Scrope of Bolton (W,B)
None of these Norths is mentioned in any of the three sources as having any Irish or American connection.
John let us keep the discussions in one place I have copied this to the other discussion.
Hope it is ok with you.
I havejust come back from visiting Kirtling the ancestral home of the Norths.
I too have been trying to get to the bottom of the Norths. I have been able to prove that the Westmeath John North some say born around 1628 is not the son of Dudley North the 3rd baron nor is he the ancestor of the US Norths
In the dictionary of National biography vols. Dudley does have a "sone John he is said to have married a Sara and two other unknown wives."
I have found all three marriages. The last is to Mary Bright of Tolmarsh on 3 May 1662. It states the John is a widower aged 50 from Kirtling.
This makes his birth at 1612.
This makes perfect sense as Johannes North marries Jemina Sarah Drurye 30th July 1634. Sarah Drurye was the widow of Charles Drury and was born Sarah Seckford.
Johns second wife is Lady Anne Bosville the widow of Leonard Bosville. They are married 18th April 1646 at St Bartholemew the Less
Thus this John North neither goes to Ireland or America but stays in England.
However there is a link with the North family and the Irish Settlements. Following the 13 years of war from 1641 to 1654 the irish soldiers and irish nobility were shipped off to spain. Other widows orphans and "non usefull" trades people were rounded up and shipped to Barbadoes or the Ameriacn plantations. From the records wer have:
"In January 1654 the governors of Carlow, Kilkenny, Clonmel, Wexford, Ross, and Waterford, had orders to arrest and deliver to Captain Thomas Morgan, Dudley North and John Johnson, English merchants, all wanderers, men and women, and such other Irish within their precincts...... to be transported to the West Indies."
So Dudley could have been their or a relative acting on his behalf.
The land and property was then divided up for the English. But although there was meant to be a fair distribution. The poor English infantrymen were systematically diddled out of their lands by the Officers. They were shown scraps of unworkable land and told that was their share. This meant that quite sizeable amounts of land went to the senior officers.
Westmeath was one such county that was given to the English. John North the English settler in Westmeath was thus likely to be an Officer. Younger sons of the Nobility often went into the army.
It seem worthwhile then relooking at the Kirtling Norths. In particular the familial names. "Roger" and "John" for example are family names in the Kirtling North dynasty.
Edward North was the First Baron (1496-1564) he was the only son of Roger North a merchant and Christian, daughter of Richard Warcup of Yorkshire. Edward survived through the turmoils of Henry VIII through to Elizabeth I. He gained lands after the disolution of the Monasteries. and set up Kirtling Hall as his base.
Edward had three children John b abt 1560, Henry and Mary.
John North married Dorothy dale and had five children Dudley (1581), Roger (1585) John (abt 1587) Mary (1590) and Gilbert (1596)
John predeceased his father Edward. Henry was given lands in Mildenhall and the title passed on to Dudley the 19 year old Grandson in 1600. Dudley marries Francess Brocket and has a son John in 1612 ( the erroneous John that some researchers claim ancestry)
What is a possibility is that the Westmeath John is Dudley's nephew and is the son of either Dudleys brother John or Gilbert. Quite a lot is known about Rogers adventure and he did not have a son John.
Dudley's brother was Sir John North and he lived in London and kept the 3rd baron Dudley up to date on goings on in London.
Did Sir John have a son John who then as a young man fought in the Irish wars and was given lands by his Uncle Dudley? An intrigueing thought. Is it a coincidence that the neighboring lands to Newcastle are called Guilford? The barony of North passed to the Earl of Guildford in 1734.
If this idea should be in another discussion or thread perhaps someone could move it for me . I am a newby.
My North ancestry is as follows:
A John North is the probable father of Roger. It is unlikely that Roger's father was Hannah Bird. So I can only safely start with Roger.
Roger North(1650 Westmeath) and Sarah
--Joseph North (1673 Westmeath) and Mary Emor
----Emor North (1708 Westmeath died 1761 London) and Ann Large
------Joseph North (1751 London) and Mary France
--------Joseph North (1777 London) and Susanna Turner
----------George North (1813 London) and Mary Ann Marshall
------------George Thomas North (1837 London) and Matilda King
--------------Mary Ann Matilda North (1860 London) and George Blackwell
Their daughter Violet Blackwell born 1896 in Westminster London was my Grandmother.
This would make a great deal of sense, but I think you have skipped one generation. Edward, 1st Baron North, was the grandfather of John North who married Dorothy Dale: the generation in between was Roger, 2nd Baron North; so that Dudley who inherited the title from his grandfather was inheriting from Roger.
Are you sure that Dudley's brother John was Sir John, or could there be confusion with Dudley's father Sir John?
I think it is unlikely that the Dudley North who was to transport Irish people to the West Indies was the 3rd Baron: even in Cromwellian England, his title would have been used, to the best of my knowledge. It could have been his son Dudley, who succeeded him as the 4th Baron. However, according to Wikipedia, this Dudley was removed from Parliament in Pride's Purge, which removed the people least likely to support the trial of the King. His father the 3rd Baron was on the parliamentary side. I would guess the merchant was some other relative.
I hadn't noticed Guilford in Co. Westmeath. It makes it almost obvious that there was a connection with the Lords North.
The father of Dudley was Sir John North married to Dorothy Dale and his grandfather was Roger the second Baron. Dudley inherited the title from his grandfather in 1600 because his father had died before roger. he title went to the eldest son of Sir John. What is confusing is that Dudley had a younger brother John who was also knighted and became Sir John too.
It is my speculation that it is a nephew of Dudley, maybe the son of the second generation sir John who is the John who goes to Ireland.
The Dudley North merchant could well be the 4th Baron, but in 1654 he would not yet be Baron. not until 1667.
Dudley was a name specifically linked to the Kirtling Norths. Sir Roger the 2nd baron was married in 1555 to Winifred, daughter of Lord Chancellor Rich, but was the widow of Sir Henry Dudley, son of John, Earl of Warwick, the Protector Northumberland. Thus connected Roger became a close personal friend of Lord Robert Dudley, the Earl of Leicester, a favourite of Queen Elizabeth I
There would be no reason for another North family to use Dudley as a Christian name. The Norths were well travelled and although the ancestral home was Kirtling, most lived in London and were merchant adventurers trading in London when not having positions at court.
Dudley's brother Sir John North was a Gentleman Usher in the Royal Houshold, I believe but cannot prove his other brother Gilbert was also a Merchant.
To make all the genealogies fit, we need a John North to be given lands in Ireland in Westmeath around 1654, probably having served as an Officer under Cromwell and to be living there in 1660. This John begets Roger, who begets Caleb who emigrates to the Usa.
Then we need another John to arrive in the USA much earlier and marry a Hannah Bird.
Neither of these "Johns" are the John North son of Dudley. We know that he stays in England.
I suspect that "US John" is the son of Dudley's brother John, and "Irish John" is the son of his brother Gilbert. The reason for this thinking is the dates for the two brothers. Gilbert was born in 1596 and more likely to have a son born abt 1628. John is born earlier in 1587 and could have a son around 1610 who is then old enough to emigrate to the USA in the 1630's.
Caleb North thus would have family connections already in the US.
But I have yet to find the baptismal evidence to support this.
However the circumstantial evidence, the traditional thinking and the familial name of Roger is in my view quite compelling.
I have been letting this lie in the hope that someone more skilled than I would take it up. But I feel that it’s about time to take some action on it. I’m setting out in advance what I intend to do in order to explain what you will be seeing in the regular report from geni.com and in case I have to stop halfway through lack of expertise.
The basic problem is the implausibility of John North Sr John the Cromwellian North (c. 1612-c . 1692) settling in both Massachusetts and Ireland. It is necessary as Stephen Potter Stephen Potter
said in his contribution on 29/3/12 to distinguish between a U.S. John and an Irish John. I propose to call them “John North, settler in New England” and “John North, settler in Westmeath” with nickname The Cromwellian.
There must be doubt as to the parentage of John North, settler in New England. “The Life of the Right Hon. Francis North” states that John, son of [[6000000003086957315?through=6000000003874121512]] third Baron North, died without issue. Stephen suggests that the settler in New England might have been a son of Sir John North, brother of the third Baron, for whom there appears to be no geni profile. Dexter North, in the referenced “John North of Farmington, Connecticut, and His Descendants”, 1921 (the reference to “Origins to the North Name”, 1921, is presumably a mistake for this), questions whether he was a relation at all. I will take no action on this and leave it to others.
Stephen suggests that the most likely father for John North, settler in Westmeath, was Gilbert North Gilbert North (1591- ), brother of the third Baron. I propose to create a profile for him as such, transferring the relevant information from the profile for John North, settler in New England. While there is no evidence as such for this, it seems preferable to have a possibility recorded by geni rather than the implausible present arrangement.
I will then transfer Roger North Roger North (1638-1701) to be the son of the settler in Westmeath, deleting the incorrect information about him being Lord Lieutenant of Ireland. I will give him as his brother John North, Jr., Gent. John North, Jr., Gent., who was transferred out of the main tree by Private User Ben M. Angel on 7 February, and transfer to him the information “of Clooneen”, now with John son of the settler in New England.
This will produce a pattern for the settler in Westmeath and his descendants as given in “The Norths of Ireland” (http://www.bomford.net/IrishBomfords/Chapters/Chapter16/norths_of_i...) and “The Coffeys of Newcastle” (http://www.bomford.net/IrishBomfords/Chapters/Chapter16/Images/coff...).
I agree that we should have on Geni a more plausible link for the Norths to the Norths of Kirtling. You have lighted upon Gilbert born 1596, but It could have been his brother John baptised 25th April 1587. On balance I prefer John because of the continuity of the name. As we have as yet no proof I cannot say.
I have found a marriage between a John North and an Elizabeth Clark in London- 12th Feb 1626 St Benet Gracechurch. John was baptized in St Gregory by St Paul. A neighbouring parish in the city of London. Both churches were destroyed in the Great Fire of London.
I have a death for Gilbert of 1655 in London but no further information.
Roger North I think we have to place closer to 1650 with his death at 1701
My choice of Gilbert North as father of [[6000000030038223493?through=6000000003975063121]] John North, settler in Westmeath, was following your post of 29/3/2012. I was also influenced by the fact that we know nothing about Gilbert, whereas we do know things about his brother [[6000000003086957315?through=6000000003975063121]] the 3rd Baron. What we know about the 3rd Baron from standard sources as in my post of 16/9/2011: 4 children, [[6000000006927373281?through=6000000003086957315]] b. 1602; [[6000000003874121512?through=6000000006927373281]] John; [[6000000009965476540?through=6000000003874121512]] Dorothy b. c. 1605; unnamed daughter. Assuming that the unnamed daughter was [[6000000008217258490?through=6000000009965476540]] Elizabeth b. c. 1605 (contributed by Robert J. Hoenig), the geni tree also has [[6000000000352456010?through=6000000008217258490]] Edward (c. 1625-c. 1678, contributed by Pamela Hendry), [[6000000003796094955?through=6000000000352456010]] Robert (b. c. 1609, contributed by Nancy Elizabeth Hohorst), and [[6000000008217107768?through=6000000003796094955 ]] Charles (b. 1611, contributed by Robert J. Hoenig).
I am omitting the blacksmith [[6000000007605523694?through=6000000008217107768]] Richard North of Salisbury, who is surely of a different family on occupational and geographical grounds.
Edward seems a little dubious. He was born in Lancaster in Yorkshire. It is odd that there should be a Lancaster in Yorkshire when there is a much more famous Lancaster in Lancashire, the next county. Also, when the other children are born 1602 to c. 1612, a child born in c. 1625 is surprising.
Now, when was John North, settler in Westmeath, born? If he was a son of the 3rd Baron and born c. 1612 like his youngest putative sibling if he was the 3rd Baron’s child, he would have been about 38 in 1650, quite possible for a Cromwellian soldier. His son Roger North was allegedly born in 1638 or before 1635, but the unlikelihood of his being born in Westmeath throws his birth-date into doubt, so closer to 1650 is possible.
Now for the John North who married Elizabeth Clark in London in 1626. I am not familiar enough with these records to judge whether it is likely that a baron would be entered without his title, which he had held since succeeding his grandfather in 1600. But if it was the 3rd Baron who married Elizabeth Clark, what had happened to his wife [[6000000003873948956 ]] , who did not die until 1676?
On these grounds Gilbert still seems a possibility, despite the non-use of the name Gilbert in subsequent generations.