The Lords North and 17th-century North settlers in Ireland, Massachusetts and Connecticut, part 2

Lori Lynn Wilke
Hi Lori any information would be appreciated.

Unknown Profile

Roger North, of Newcastle

http://www.geni.com/discussions/100634?msg=740144

John let us keep the discussions in one place I have copied this to the other discussion.

Hope it is ok with you.

I defer to your information on and familiarity with the Norths; any work I did on those profiles must have been a result of their appearing as merge issues. If there is a specific action I can take to undo anything, let me know, otherwise I will leave the Norths in your far more capable hands.

I havejust come back from visiting Kirtling the ancestral home of the Norths.

I too have been trying to get to the bottom of the Norths. I have been able to prove that the Westmeath John North some say born around 1628 is not the son of Dudley North the 3rd baron nor is he the ancestor of the US Norths

In the dictionary of National biography vols. Dudley does have a "sone John he is said to have married a Sara and two other unknown wives."

I have found all three marriages. The last is to Mary Bright of Tolmarsh on 3 May 1662. It states the John is a widower aged 50 from Kirtling.

This makes his birth at 1612.

This makes perfect sense as Johannes North marries Jemina Sarah Drurye 30th July 1634. Sarah Drurye was the widow of Charles Drury and was born Sarah Seckford.

Johns second wife is Lady Anne Bosville the widow of Leonard Bosville. They are married 18th April 1646 at St Bartholemew the Less

Thus this John North neither goes to Ireland or America but stays in England.

However there is a link with the North family and the Irish Settlements. Following the 13 years of war from 1641 to 1654 the irish soldiers and irish nobility were shipped off to spain. Other widows orphans and "non usefull" trades people were rounded up and shipped to Barbadoes or the Ameriacn plantations. From the records wer have:

"In January 1654 the governors of Carlow, Kilkenny, Clonmel, Wexford, Ross, and Waterford, had orders to arrest and deliver to Captain Thomas Morgan, Dudley North and John Johnson, English merchants, all wanderers, men and women, and such other Irish within their precincts...... to be transported to the West Indies."

So Dudley could have been their or a relative acting on his behalf.

The land and property was then divided up for the English. But although there was meant to be a fair distribution. The poor English infantrymen were systematically diddled out of their lands by the Officers. They were shown scraps of unworkable land and told that was their share. This meant that quite sizeable amounts of land went to the senior officers.

Westmeath was one such county that was given to the English. John North the English settler in Westmeath was thus likely to be an Officer. Younger sons of the Nobility often went into the army.

It seem worthwhile then relooking at the Kirtling Norths. In particular the familial names. "Roger" and "John" for example are family names in the Kirtling North dynasty.

Edward North was the First Baron (1496-1564) he was the only son of Roger North a merchant and Christian, daughter of Richard Warcup of Yorkshire. Edward survived through the turmoils of Henry VIII through to Elizabeth I. He gained lands after the disolution of the Monasteries. and set up Kirtling Hall as his base.

Edward had three children John b abt 1560, Henry and Mary.

John North married Dorothy dale and had five children Dudley (1581), Roger (1585) John (abt 1587) Mary (1590) and Gilbert (1596)

John predeceased his father Edward. Henry was given lands in Mildenhall and the title passed on to Dudley the 19 year old Grandson in 1600. Dudley marries Francess Brocket and has a son John in 1612 ( the erroneous John that some researchers claim ancestry)

What is a possibility is that the Westmeath John is Dudley's nephew and is the son of either Dudleys brother John or Gilbert. Quite a lot is known about Rogers adventure and he did not have a son John.

Dudley's brother was Sir John North and he lived in London and kept the 3rd baron Dudley up to date on goings on in London.

Did Sir John have a son John who then as a young man fought in the Irish wars and was given lands by his Uncle Dudley? An intrigueing thought. Is it a coincidence that the neighboring lands to Newcastle are called Guilford? The barony of North passed to the Earl of Guildford in 1734.

If this idea should be in another discussion or thread perhaps someone could move it for me . I am a newby.

My North ancestry is as follows:

A John North is the probable father of Roger. It is unlikely that Roger's father was Hannah Bird. So I can only safely start with Roger.

Roger North(1650 Westmeath) and Sarah
--Joseph North (1673 Westmeath) and Mary Emor
----Emor North (1708 Westmeath died 1761 London) and Ann Large
------Joseph North (1751 London) and Mary France
--------Joseph North (1777 London) and Susanna Turner
----------George North (1813 London) and Mary Ann Marshall
------------George Thomas North (1837 London) and Matilda King
--------------Mary Ann Matilda North (1860 London) and George Blackwell

Their daughter Violet Blackwell born 1896 in Westminster London was my Grandmother.

This would make a great deal of sense, but I think you have skipped one generation. Edward, 1st Baron North, was the grandfather of John North who married Dorothy Dale: the generation in between was Roger, 2nd Baron North; so that Dudley who inherited the title from his grandfather was inheriting from Roger.

Are you sure that Dudley's brother John was Sir John, or could there be confusion with Dudley's father Sir John?

I think it is unlikely that the Dudley North who was to transport Irish people to the West Indies was the 3rd Baron: even in Cromwellian England, his title would have been used, to the best of my knowledge. It could have been his son Dudley, who succeeded him as the 4th Baron. However, according to Wikipedia, this Dudley was removed from Parliament in Pride's Purge, which removed the people least likely to support the trial of the King. His father the 3rd Baron was on the parliamentary side. I would guess the merchant was some other relative.

I hadn't noticed Guilford in Co. Westmeath. It makes it almost obvious that there was a connection with the Lords North.

The father of Dudley was Sir John North married to Dorothy Dale and his grandfather was Roger the second Baron. Dudley inherited the title from his grandfather in 1600 because his father had died before roger. he title went to the eldest son of Sir John. What is confusing is that Dudley had a younger brother John who was also knighted and became Sir John too.

It is my speculation that it is a nephew of Dudley, maybe the son of the second generation sir John who is the John who goes to Ireland.

The Dudley North merchant could well be the 4th Baron, but in 1654 he would not yet be Baron. not until 1667.

Dudley was a name specifically linked to the Kirtling Norths. Sir Roger the 2nd baron was married in 1555 to Winifred, daughter of Lord Chancellor Rich, but was the widow of Sir Henry Dudley, son of John, Earl of Warwick, the Protector Northumberland. Thus connected Roger became a close personal friend of Lord Robert Dudley, the Earl of Leicester, a favourite of Queen Elizabeth I

There would be no reason for another North family to use Dudley as a Christian name. The Norths were well travelled and although the ancestral home was Kirtling, most lived in London and were merchant adventurers trading in London when not having positions at court.

Dudley's brother Sir John North was a Gentleman Usher in the Royal Houshold, I believe but cannot prove his other brother Gilbert was also a Merchant.

To make all the genealogies fit, we need a John North to be given lands in Ireland in Westmeath around 1654, probably having served as an Officer under Cromwell and to be living there in 1660. This John begets Roger, who begets Caleb who emigrates to the Usa.

Then we need another John to arrive in the USA much earlier and marry a Hannah Bird.

Neither of these "Johns" are the John North son of Dudley. We know that he stays in England.

I suspect that "US John" is the son of Dudley's brother John, and "Irish John" is the son of his brother Gilbert. The reason for this thinking is the dates for the two brothers. Gilbert was born in 1596 and more likely to have a son born abt 1628. John is born earlier in 1587 and could have a son around 1610 who is then old enough to emigrate to the USA in the 1630's.

Caleb North thus would have family connections already in the US.

But I have yet to find the baptismal evidence to support this.

However the circumstantial evidence, the traditional thinking and the familial name of Roger is in my view quite compelling.

I have been letting this lie in the hope that someone more skilled than I would take it up. But I feel that it’s about time to take some action on it. I’m setting out in advance what I intend to do in order to explain what you will be seeing in the regular report from geni.com and in case I have to stop halfway through lack of expertise.

The basic problem is the implausibility of John North, of Farmington John the Cromwellian North (c. 1612-c . 1692) settling in both Massachusetts and Ireland. It is necessary as Stephen Potter Stephen Potter
said in his contribution on 29/3/12 to distinguish between a U.S. John and an Irish John. I propose to call them “John North, settler in New England” and “John North, settler in Westmeath” with nickname The Cromwellian.

There must be doubt as to the parentage of John North, settler in New England. “The Life of the Right Hon. Francis North” states that John, son of [[6000000003086957315?through=6000000003874121512]] third Baron North, died without issue. Stephen suggests that the settler in New England might have been a son of Sir John North, brother of the third Baron, for whom there appears to be no geni profile. Dexter North, in the referenced “John North of Farmington, Connecticut, and His Descendants”, 1921 (the reference to “Origins to the North Name”, 1921, is presumably a mistake for this), questions whether he was a relation at all. I will take no action on this and leave it to others.

Stephen suggests that the most likely father for John North, settler in Westmeath, was Gilbert North Gilbert North (1591- ), brother of the third Baron. I propose to create a profile for him as such, transferring the relevant information from the profile for John North, settler in New England. While there is no evidence as such for this, it seems preferable to have a possibility recorded by geni rather than the implausible present arrangement.

I will then transfer Roger North, of Newcastle Roger North (1638-1701) to be the son of the settler in Westmeath, deleting the incorrect information about him being Lord Lieutenant of Ireland. I will give him as his brother John North, Jr., Gent. John North, Jr., Gent., who was transferred out of the main tree by Private User Ben M. Angel on 7 February, and transfer to him the information “of Clooneen”, now with John son of the settler in New England.

This will produce a pattern for the settler in Westmeath and his descendants as given in “The Norths of Ireland” (http://www.bomford.net/IrishBomfords/Chapters/Chapter16/norths_of_i...) and “The Coffeys of Newcastle” (http://www.bomford.net/IrishBomfords/Chapters/Chapter16/Images/coff...).

John

I agree that we should have on Geni a more plausible link for the Norths to the Norths of Kirtling. You have lighted upon Gilbert born 1596, but It could have been his brother John baptised 25th April 1587. On balance I prefer John because of the continuity of the name. As we have as yet no proof I cannot say.

I have found a marriage between a John North and an Elizabeth Clark in London- 12th Feb 1626 St Benet Gracechurch. John was baptized in St Gregory by St Paul. A neighbouring parish in the city of London. Both churches were destroyed in the Great Fire of London.

I have a death for Gilbert of 1655 in London but no further information.

Roger North I think we have to place closer to 1650 with his death at 1701

Stephen,

My choice of Gilbert North as father of [[6000000030038223493?through=6000000003975063121]] John North, settler in Westmeath, was following your post of 29/3/2012. I was also influenced by the fact that we know nothing about Gilbert, whereas we do know things about his brother [[6000000003086957315?through=6000000003975063121]] the 3rd Baron. What we know about the 3rd Baron from standard sources as in my post of 16/9/2011: 4 children, [[6000000006927373281?through=6000000003086957315]] b. 1602; [[6000000003874121512?through=6000000006927373281]] John; [[6000000009965476540?through=6000000003874121512]] Dorothy b. c. 1605; unnamed daughter. Assuming that the unnamed daughter was [[6000000008217258490?through=6000000009965476540]] Elizabeth b. c. 1605 (contributed by Robert J. Hoenig), the geni tree also has [[6000000000352456010?through=6000000008217258490]] Edward (c. 1625-c. 1678, contributed by Pamela Hendry), [[6000000003796094955?through=6000000000352456010]] Robert (b. c. 1609, contributed by Nancy Elizabeth Hohorst), and [[6000000008217107768?through=6000000003796094955 ]] Charles (b. 1611, contributed by Robert J. Hoenig).

I am omitting the blacksmith [[6000000007605523694?through=6000000008217107768]] Richard North of Salisbury, who is surely of a different family on occupational and geographical grounds.

Edward seems a little dubious. He was born in Lancaster in Yorkshire. It is odd that there should be a Lancaster in Yorkshire when there is a much more famous Lancaster in Lancashire, the next county. Also, when the other children are born 1602 to c. 1612, a child born in c. 1625 is surprising.

Now, when was John North, settler in Westmeath, born? If he was a son of the 3rd Baron and born c. 1612 like his youngest putative sibling if he was the 3rd Baron’s child, he would have been about 38 in 1650, quite possible for a Cromwellian soldier. His son Roger North, of Newcastle was allegedly born in 1638 or before 1635, but the unlikelihood of his being born in Westmeath throws his birth-date into doubt, so closer to 1650 is possible.

Now for the John North who married Elizabeth Clark in London in 1626. I am not familiar enough with these records to judge whether it is likely that a baron would be entered without his title, which he had held since succeeding his grandfather in 1600. But if it was the 3rd Baron who married Elizabeth Clark, what had happened to his wife [[6000000003873948956 ]] , who did not die until 1676?

On these grounds Gilbert still seems a possibility, despite the non-use of the name Gilbert in subsequent generations.

Tagging Mary Emerson to this discussion since we’ve been working on her line.

A note: her son (or so we think so far) Joshua Emerson inherited Dublin property:

Joshua was the only son of Caleb Emerson, whose will dated 16th July 1748 in the City of Philadelphia includes, 'I give and devise my two lots of ground and my messuages situated in Anne Street in the city of Dublin in the Kingdom of Ireland, and all my Lands, tenements and hereditaments in the said Kingdom of Ireland, and also all Estates either for Form or Form of years, or for Form of Forms of Life or Lives, wherein I have any Right, Title or Interest within the same Kingdom of Ireland to my son Joshua Emerson, to hold to him, his Heirs, Executors, Administrators and Assigns for ever' (Richard Emerson email 8 Nov 2008).

Private User Can you help me find the “died without issue” John North in Geni ?

The "died without issue" John North is referred to in my post of 8/12/2014.

The question is, who was @John North Sr, now John North, of Farmington. In my contributions I had proposed to re-name him “John North, settler in New England” but decided to leave his name undisturbed. There is no doubt as to his descendants, but was he the John North who is stated in “The Life of the Right Hon. Francis North” to have died without issue?

It is clear that the @John Dudley North, 3rd Baron Lord North of Kirtling had a son John. But was he the man who “sailed for New England on the Suzan and Ellen”? The source quoted is "Origins to the North Name,” by Dexter North, 1921. But this book does not appear to exist and the reference given in “About” turns up “John North of Farmington, Connecticut and his descendants, with a short account of other early North families”, by Dexter North, 1921. And this book says: “Concerning the antecedents of John North, original proprietor of Farmington, Conn., of whose descendants this book is a record, nothing is known previous to his arrival in this country, save that he sailed from London in 1635. This would indicate that he came either from the south of England, the eastern counties, or from London or its vicinity…” (page v). It goes on to say he was born in 1615, which comes from his age in the ship’s manifest, 20. “The tradition persists in certain branches of the family that John North was descended from the ancestors of the distinguished family of Guilford Norths who were prominent and influential in English history, but evidence is lacking to substantiate this connection.”

The profile of John North, Sr, says he was born on 27 Feb. 1611. So the 20-year-old John who sailed in the ship would actually have been 24. Why would he give a wrong age?

I don’t know the source of the birth date, but it seems plausible as a son of the 3rd Baron.

This is an extract from “The Life of the Rt Hon. Francis North”: http://books.google.com/books/content?id=UW5UAAAAYAAJ&pg=PR2&am... . We read: “… Lord North, Baron of Kirtling (vulgo Catlidge) was their Father. His Father was Dudley also, and had three other Children. First, a Son named John, who had three Wives… He survived all his Wives, and died without Issue.” The “Dudley also” here was grandfather of the Lord Keeper of the Great Seal (Lord Chancellor), Sir Dudley, and Dr John Master of Trinity College. And the “John” with 3 wives has two sisters, one of whom married Lord Dacres. While there are a lot more children than four (2 boys, 2 girls) on geni, the John entered as “John North, Sr” did have a sister who married @Richard Lennard, 13th Lord Dacre. And Lord Keeper @Francis North, 1st Baron Guilford and @Sir Dudley North, MP are there on the family tree in the next generation, along with @John North who is identified in Wikipedia as Master of Trinity College (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dudley_North,_4th_Baron_North).

The series ‘England & Wales Marriages, 1538-1988' and ‘England, Select Marriages, 1538–1973' provided by ancestry.co.uk have a marriage of Johannes North, son of Dudley, at Kirtling in 1634 to Jemina Sarha Drurye. I suppose that doesn’t prevent him travelling to America in 1635 and having two more wives (as listed in geni) later. But if the Francis North author was right about 3 wives, why was he wrong about dying without issue?

https://www.wikitree.com/wiki/North-32 says specifically that John North who settled in America was not the John born 1612 in KIrtling (the variant dates 1611 and 1612 are probably a question of calendar), and gives further details under the heading ‘Research Notes’.

I am not familiar with the various American sources given in the “About” section for John North Sr, but none of them look conclusive and may simply reflect the numerous ancestry.com genealogies which grow on each other.

My conclusion is that John North the American settler could have been a member of the Kirtling family but was not the son of Dudley the 3rd Baron.

I’ll try and study on this. Also tagging Private User

Oh boy, I am completely over my head as soon as we set foot into Ireland! I hang out in Scotland, Colonial America, and early American pioneers. I put together the John North, of Farmington profile as part of the Profile Clean Up Project. He’s a collateral ancestor for me as my direct line goes through his sister, if I remember correctly. I’d be glad to help but probably won’t be of much use! Sorry, Erica Howton!

Private User, I agree that none of the references listed under “Sources” in the John North, of Farmington profile are conclusive. Several are what I think of as “garbage sources”, and the rest are certainly unreliable. I always leave all these in profiles when I’m cleaning up, as I’ve found that omitting them invariably leads to someone throwing them back in later. I’ve often thought, though, that there should be a way of specifying their reliability. I think I’ll dive back into his profile and play with that. Perhaps breaking them up into subsections? Or simply annotating each one? Hmm.

Also will make corrections to the Derek North book. Thank you for catching that. I usually check each source in a profile when cleaning (writing, formatting, fact checking) but apparently missed this one.

You raise an interesting question about how to deal with debunked source info. I think it should remain in profile so the issue isn’t revisited again and again, but how to show that succinctly? I tend to annotate i.e., [NO: not his wife ...]

I know that this is totally random but I have been searching my ancestry for almost two years. I have connected my ancestry to the Norths but I'm not 100% that it is accurate. At any point in time, have any of you seen "Hardy" in the North lineage? According to Ancestry, Sarah North (who, if accurate, was daughter of the Honourable Roger North - still trying to figure out the mess of this, as well - your notes have helped a great deal!) married a John Hardy in 1704. I am DESPERATELY trying to find John Hardy's father, but I thinking - if he was connected to a Noble family such as the Norths, it's possible he was also a nobleman. But I need proof before I can get excited about it.

So - anyone seen any Hardys?? LOL

I should also add - the Hardys (from what I can tell) are from Ireland. They may have moved from England to Ireland (while a few others went to Australia.....yes....Australia and some went to the US).

Also (and hopefully this is my last thought that I'll post) the reason I am STUCK on the Norths being connected with the Hardys is because, along the line, starting in late 1700s to early 1800s, there is a Joshua and a Caleb. At no time, anywhere, have I been able to locate neither a Joshua nor a Caleb in any of the lines. The Norths happens to have both. I have been trying to place Joshua and Caleb for over two years.....so this Joshua Emmerson thing is HUGE (I have not yet read the notes following that of Mary Emmerson in this post yet) and the name Emmerson rings a bell.

Still though.....no connection to Hardys yet.....

OK - this is actually my last note. Francis North - where does he fit in? Who does he "belong" to? The Hardys have two familial names: John and Francis. Given all this information, I KNOW that they connect - but where, and how??

Samantha McKeag, could you be more specific? There's an Hon. Roger North whose son Roger is born c. 1703, so it's unlikely that he had a daughter marrying in 1704. And he had a brother Francis. But this branch did not have Irish connections.