Rice Pudding Part 2, Quest For Truth

I did a little work on that line up around the 15th century. It's very messy and gets into a tangled Nest. I really suspect there were two of Christian(a) Warcup, possibly aunt and niece - the dates were just crazy otherwise.

There's a list of Lord Mayors of London here: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_Lord_Mayors_of_London

No Lockes. No Wilkersons. Sir Ralph Warren Sir Ralph Warren, Lord Mayor of London is on it twice - he's right in the middle of that Nest.

http://www.geni.com/projects/Lord-Mayors-of-London/6047

The Lord Mayor of London Sir Ralph Warren Sir Ralph Warren, Lord Mayor of London is in my family tree as are the CROMWELLS, portestant leaders of the Great English Revolution. My ancestor Thomas ap Rice Perrot ap Rice Perrott's FAther was a sponsor of NON conformist Protestant leaders and invited the Preacher John Hughes to preach locally in Wales after 1600. So the ap Rices were very much in the hunt for Recusants and non-Puritans. fyi this was an issue back in March of this year, now resolved in my view. The Lockes are part of this group as are the Wilkinsons. DCR

See John Locke Elizabeth Locke and Wilkinsons Jane Wilkinson I have marked both files to share my family connection to both fyi DCR

Ageness Locke Agnes Locke is my direct blood 10th cousin 8 times removed...The family is also connected to the ap Rice's....I can't tell you how just yet...but it's part of the Disclosure my DAD made. DCR

Dale - I believe I might be a direct descendant via Locke of NH, so I know the line a bit. I'm not quite understanding your question.

I can open my Geni connection to Ageness Locke if you like....I can't really make any connection at this time so I have to leave it at that, she's a direct blood cousin. Which I did not know of and descends from Tudor blood, Mary 1450 & Thomas Grey to Jane Grey and John MERCER to ? The records are in conflict here...Maven says Lady North is the mother of Jane Wilkerson and other records say Wilkerson & Michael Locke are the Daughter son in law of Jane MERCER....Don't know which to go with....DCR

Dale go with Geni. We're working to make sure it's well sourced.

I'm guessing there's some spurious Internet garbled record mixing up Jane North, who married into the Locke family of mercers and citizens of London, and came up with a name of "Jane Mercer.".

I'm not 100% sure yet this is the case - as always, we need a little time to improve the Geni World tree - but this is what I think so far.

I haven't looked at Agnes yet. Where is it you think she leads?

And Dale - you are definitely mixing up two different Grey families. The Grey / Gray's associated with the Locke's are a DIFFERENT Gray family from Queen Jane Gray, who succeeded Edward, son of Henry Vlll.

Agness is our Cousin: see the relationship I have opened a second window for you so it's open and searchable from your side..and have no further comments about her until we settle which Jane GREY leads to Jane MERCEr and Jane Wilkerson....as that's the CENTRAL part of my story that Im trying to unravel...THANKS DCR

Do you mean Lady Jane Grey, Queen of England (disputed)

How is it you believe she relates to the Locke family? I already mentioned she is of a DIFFERENT Grey family.

Dale

I have a research task for you and it shouldn't be very difficult, with your knowledge of the Tudors. But there's a caveat: your sources need to be from historians, not from internet trees.

Who was the husband of Tacine Grey, of Somerset

Wikipedia says

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Owen_Tudor

Tacinda Tudor (b. 1433). She married Reginald Grey, Baron Grey of Wilton (1420/1421 – 22 February 1494), and had issue.[6][7]

6. There is clearly a difference of opinion as to who his wife was, if Tacinda Tudor or Jacinda (Thomasine) Beaufort (c. 1434 – c. 1469), bastard daughter of John Beaufort, 1st Duke of Somerset
7. The Complete Peerage vol.XIIpI,p.48,note a.

So my suggestion is start by "chasing the citations.". The Complete Peerage should be available on line.

YES, I went with TACINDA TUDOR as the SISTER not the daughter of Jasper TUDOR line....and only recently saw the Mary Tudor which I can see was incorrect...so I agree that REYNOLD Grey line is the line involved to the Wilkinsons and Warrens and LOCKEs....As I said, I was 28 years old at the time and did not take notes....so reconstructing the names is hard...the names which I do recall were Friend, John Locke, and BACON.....We have a Mary BAcon in the family after the WHALLEYS/Cromwells....Im back on track now I believe....DCR

W: Those are wonderful References....I am very interested in the FMG.AC...will likely join that one....Burks is out of my league sad to say, but will see if we have one at the upscale local Libray in Ranch Mirage, Ca. Regards....Thus the working genealogy Im working from is Tacinda Tudor/Reynold GREy to Jane Grey Mercer 1475to Jane MERCER1505 to Jane Mercer Wilkerson 1532 to Agness Wilkerson Locke 1570. The death of Jane Wilkerson 1576 is the one Im looking for that information....how she died....if it was in Child Bed then we have a possible mother for Margaret MERCER. DCR 1948

Dale that cannot be right because as far as I can tell, Tacinda Tudor, if she existed at all, had no children.

So your next task is

Who are the children of Reynold Grey, 7th Baron Grey of Wilton

Again this should not be difficult

And always double-check, because errors *will* creep in, no matter how careful the source tries to be. Try to find two matching sources, and three is even better. (This means either primary sources, i.e. original documents, or strong secondary sources that actually cite primary documents.)

I'm biting my tongue not to say what I think about Edmund Tudor. While it was customary to marry child brides back then, it was also customary to wait to consummate the marriage until they were at least fourteen.

Edmund didn't wait. His bride was eleven or twelve. She had one healthy son, and was never able to bear any more children.

Okay: Wickapedia and Geni both site the only son of Reynold Grey and Tacinda Tudor Tacine Grey, of Somerset as John Grey 8th Baron de Wilton married to Jand Grey Jane Grey.

Maven: I too am scandalized by the impossibly Hostile treatment of women/girls, children really of the time period...in fact I just posted on a political blog on FB 5 outrageous attitudes that still have currency in modern America stemming from the Middle AGES....Im pretty sure the 14 year old that Sir Frances Bacon was not the first child bride, nor the last....It's very close to PEDeresty in my view....The story of the 14 year old girl made it into the Aural history to me which I simply didn't get at the time....As a former police executive it enrages a part of me.....so I'll let that go now....At least with the Agness LOCKE affiliation and the Jane Grey to Jane Lock affiliation we can see a trend in the veracity of my initial claim? I hope you do as well...DCR 1948

The Thomasine Beaufort line does descendt to the Belgrave FRost line, I've researched that...she's the sister to Margaret Beaufort...I din't think both daughters were illegitimate from John of Gaunt. But been a while since I read up on him....DCR

This is an aside: PERHAPS W you may know about this one, John Rice was the Right Arm of Henry VIII during the abolition of the Monistary's and worked closely with Thomas Cromwell and got rich doing so.....There is a gruesome story of a John Rice being burned at the Stake refusing to accept the Marian reinstatement of Catholic Faith....described as a Blind and aged man.....Unbent by the death sentence.....I wonder if it's the same JOHN RICE? Anyone know that story....his death is part of an English Holiday of Martyers every fall....DCR

Hmmmmm: He's the RIght arm of Cromwell in the disolution of the Monistaries when VIII a TRAINED LAWYER...He's in the History of Parliment I think is where I first read up on him... anyway the holiday in the fall with bon fires he's one of the two men celebrated.....I thought it was very, very BRAVE to go defiant to the stake....DCR

Dale - did you open up the profile for Tacine Grey, of Somerset and read the notes in the "about"?

They start

Reynold (or Reginald) Grey, 7th Baron Grey of Wilton, married twice. First to Tacinda Tudor, no children, secondly to Thomasine Beaufort, one son, John, 8th Baron of Wilton.

If you read the notes for John Grey, 8th Baron Grey of Wilton

They start

Sir John Grey, 8th Lord Grey of Wilton 'M, d. 3 April 1499
Father Sir Reynold Grey, 7th Lord Grey of Wilton b. c 1421, d. 22 Feb 1494
Mother Thomasine (Tacine) Beaufort b. bt 1421 - 1438, d. a 24 May 1469

Sir John Grey was the son of Thomasine Beaufort, not Tacinda Tudor

Good EYE ERICA....I did not catch that...I did look at it ..but the second wife was the mother eh? Well, scratch that part of the TUDOR LINKAGE....They do connect further down it seems....The Michael Locke and Jane Grey are still in that line up....right? DCR

Probably not, Dale. But you need to give me time to source properly - or you could present a source? (she says hopefully).

Start by @ linking the exact profile, on GENI, you think is a connection. And read notes in the profile, if any.

We have Mary Plantagenet 1445 & Thomas Wilkerson 1445 to Wm. Wilkerson 1477 & Jane Delacy 1477 to William Wilkerson II 1500 & Jane Mercer +Wm. Locke1532-1635....leading to AGNESS in my dirct line and we have Jane Mercer1505 /Locke dead by 1576 ca 1580 Birth of Margaret MERCER. The Tudor connection has to be the ChildBed Death then and I have MT. DNA hopefully will help determine this. I believe this is the group my FAther was speak of....so will regroup after MT. DNA comes back. If we get the Thomazine Frost results to compare with my two sisters who are testing....one is more comprehensive and will be done second to the first test... DCR

Dale please, I beg you -

1. One profile at a time
2. You must @ link the Geni profile

You are going too fast. You asked about a Jane Mercer who I think may not exist.

So can you @ link the Jane Gray you mean as the next step please?

W: Book of Marters got through 400 pages of scan..will check the source I had on the History of Parliment...DCR wonderful source doccument.

I know it's hundreds and hundreds of pages I've read and after a while they blend together...Sorry. DCR

You refer to a Jane Grey, Dale, and a Margaret Mercer. I have no idea who you mean. Jane Mercer is likely an internet tree error for Joan Wilkinson the only wife of William Wilkinson.

Where is there a Margaret Mercer?????