Joanna Culpeper, Princess of England - Joanna m Culpepper: a daughter of King John?

Started by Sharon Doubell on Monday, April 6, 2015
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4/6/2015 at 7:24 AM

What evidence do we have that Joanna (wife of Sir John Colpeper de Brenchesle) was the daughter of John I "Lackland", King of England?

She's my direct gr grandmother - so I'd be pleased if there was any, but I'm rather doubtful.

Medlands (,%20Kings%201066-1603.htm)
has two Joans as daughters of John - but neither married a Culpepper:

1. a legitimate daughter JOAN by ISABELLE d’Angoulême, : JOAN of England (22 Jul 1210-Havering-atte-Bower, Essex 4 Mar 1238, bur Tarrant Crawford Abbey, Dorset[595]). The Annals of Worcester record the birth “die Sanctæ Mariæ Magdalenæ” in 1210 of “regi filia Johanna”[596]. King John confirmed the proposed marriage of "Johannam filiam suam genitam de Ysabell uxore sua, filia com Engolism" to "Hugonis de Lysuinan fil H com Marchie" by charter dated 29 Sep 1214[597]. Matthew Paris records her marriage, specifying that she was the sister of King Henry III[598]. The Annals of Dunstable record that “regi Scotiæ” married “rege…sororem suam” in 1221, specifying that she was eleven years old at the time and had previously been betrothed to “Hugoni Brun”[599]. The marriage contract between “Alexando...Regi Scotiæ” and “Rex...Johannam primogenitam sororem nostram” is dated 15 Jun 1220[600]. The Annales Londonienses record the death in 1238 of "Johanna regina regis Scotiæ, soror regis Anglorum" while on a visit to her brother in England and her burial "IV Non Mar"[601]. The Annals of Tewkesbury record the death “apud Haveringes III Non Mar” of “regina Scotiæ soror regis Angliæ” and her burial “apud Tarentune monialium”[602]. Betrothed (29 Sep 1214) to HUGUES [XI] de Lusignan Comte de la Marche, son of HUGUES [X] "le Brun" Sire de Lusignan, Comte de la Marche & his first wife --- (-1249 after 15 Jan, bur Abbaye de Valence). He succeeded in 1220 as Comte d'Angoulême. m (contract 15 Jun 1220, York Minster 18 or 25 Jun 1221) as his first wife, ALEXANDER II King of Scotland, son of WILLIAM I “the Lion” King of Scotland & his wife Ermengarde de Beaumont (Haddington, East Lothian 24 Aug 1198-Isle of Kerrara, Bay of Oban 6 Jul 1249, bur Melrose Abbey, Roxburghshire).

2. King John had one illegitimate daughter by Mistress (2): JOAN (-30 Mar 1237). King John confirmed "castrum de Ellesmara" to "Lewelino principi Norwallie in maritagium cum Johanna filia nostra" by charter dated 16 Apr 1205[642]. Her husband sent her to make peace with the king her father in 1211 when the latter was attacking North Wales. She was legitimated in 1226: Pope Honorius III gave dispensation to “Joan wife of Leuwelin prince of North Wales, daughter of king John declaring her legitimate, but without prejudice to the king or realm of England”, dated 29 Apr 1226[643]. She and her son David did homage to King Henry III in 1229[644]. The Chronicle of the Princes of Wales records that "William Bruse was hanged by Llywelyn son of Iorewerth, having been caught in the chamber of the prince with the princess Jannet, daughter of King John and wife of the prince" in 1230[645]. The Annales Cambriæ record the death in 1237 of "domina Johanna filia regis Angliæ et uxor Lewilini principis Walliæ" and her burial "apud Haber"[646]. The Annals of Tewkesbury record the death “III Kal Apr” in 1236 of “domina Johanna Walliæ, uxor Lewelini, filia regis Johannis et reginæ Clemenciæ”[647]. The Chronicle of the Princes of Wales records that "Dame Joan daughter of king John and the wife of Llywelyn son of Iorwerth" died in Feb 1237 "at the court of Aber and was buried in a new cemetery on the side of the strand which Howel bishop of Llanelwy had consecrated"[648]. m (1205) as his second wife, LLYWELLYN ap Iorwerth Fawr ("the Great") Prince of North Wales, son of IORWERTH Drwyndwyn ("flat nose") Prince of Gwynedd & his wife Marared of Powys ([1173]-1240).

4/6/2015 at 12:51 PM

no evidence. just a wrong connection. i disconnected it.

4/6/2015 at 2:54 PM

Illegitimate children of the early Plantagenets were (so far as we can tell from the sources) mostly acknowledged. King John is different, because he was so spectacularly unsuccessful that people attributed his unsuccess, in part, to his allegedly seducing the wives of his nobles, whereas earlier kings are supposed to have seduced them before they were married.

I have a bit of a problem, which I suspect can't be resolved, with the Bluet/Bloet/Blewitt family. There is a charter dated 1130 (I think) which calls William Bloet "fra[ter] Comitis Ricardis"- Richard Strongbow being the only Earl Richard at the time- and William's sons Walter and Ralph appear just after Isabel de Clare on the list of the founders of Lacock Abbey. The Bloets certainly had initimate relations with the court (one of them being an illegitimate son of Henry II) and with the de Clares (having been involved in the sieges of Lincoln and Tickhill together with them, and then clearly involved in the engagemet in Ireland. But whether frater here means a brother-in-law, a step-brother, or wjhat is simply speculation. How one ts it on Geni is beyond me.


4/7/2015 at 2:21 AM

Eish :-( Jason Scott Wills, I'd just found this link to bad king John of Robin Hood fame - can there not be a decent mourning period (at least long enough for me to get out the Alan Rickman version) before you cut the umbilical cord of my hopes? :-)

4/7/2015 at 2:28 AM

Not to worry, Rickman's "cut his heart out with a spoon" was the Sheriff of Nottingham, not King John:-)
You can go ahead and cut; cut; cut :-)

4/7/2015 at 2:35 AM

Hope you have better luck Mark.

5/2/2015 at 7:53 AM

Sharon - I am a direct descendant of King John, Edward I and III and Robert de Bruce. Not sure which side to root for. It's interesting reading and gives one perspective I suppose. Now looking for some redeeming features about John both Edwards.

Private User
5/2/2015 at 8:43 AM

Ernest , so am I

5/2/2015 at 1:37 PM

If anyone wants to rehabilitate King John, perhaps they should look at his alleged opponents. The first time Robin Hood appears in English verse, it is not only as the murderer of an abbot. Unfortunately the murder is witnessed by a child, so Robin murders him too. (The anonymous poet seems to think this is a matter for great admiration; one would of course understand this reaction if he was on a plane with a squalling child behind one's seat - "Madam, would you like to take your child outside for a week? - but it is difficult to see what the medieval equivalent could have been).

Not quite the Robin we are used to.


Private User
5/2/2015 at 2:28 PM
Private User
5/2/2015 at 2:30 PM

John Conyers

Sir John Conyers Thought to be the historic Robin Hood

5/2/2015 at 4:32 PM

Hi Sharon, I also am a descendant of Henry II, 22 ggf, John, 21 ggf, Henry III, 20 ggf, Edward I, 19 ggf, Edward II, 18 ggr Edward III, 17 ggf, and Robert de Bruce 19 ggf.

And now, Princess_______ of England is my 14th cousin, twice removed. Her paternal grandmother, Diana Spencer is my 14th cousin. Prince William is my 14th cousin once removed from his mother's side and he is my 16th cousin 4 times removed from his father's side.

But I digress.

John Pat

Private User
5/2/2015 at 7:52 PM

Arthur Wilkings Newkirk: The earliest Robin Hood ballads *predate* Sir John Conyers - some by more than a hundred years.

Sir John Conyers is believed to have been "Robin of Redesdale", an anti-Yorkist rebel and leader of an insurgency against King Edward IV. This persona is thought to have been drawing on extant ballads and legends of Robin Hood, but is certainly not the original source of them. (He may have added more flavor to the later versions, though.)

The rebels got clobbered at Edgecote Moor (26 July 1469).

5/2/2015 at 10:42 PM

Robin Hood is thought to go further back to William "Willikin" of the Weald.
Though, it's rather like King Arthur & we'll never know for certain.

5/2/2015 at 11:49 PM

Haha guys - good stories. Thank you - I feel better that I'm related to neither. Woodman Mark Lowes Dickinson, OBE, I wonder if we can find that original poem anywhere.

5/2/2015 at 11:53 PM

Oops, I spoke too soon. Geni found another path for me through my father to Edward Longshanks and Bad King John as my 22nd gr grandpa.:-) .Oh well.

I wonder if the Sheriff of Nottingham was a Disney creation? (Now that we know Robin Hood actually killed Friar Tuck:-))

Private User
5/3/2015 at 10:05 AM

Sharon: No, the Sheriff was in at least some of the earlier ballads and stories, long before Disney. (He was also in the Errol Flynn "Adventures of Robin Hood", playing an incompetent second fiddle to Guy of Gisbourne (Basil Rathbone) - and while Guy got it at Robin's hands, the Sheriff got to live and be a laughingstock..)

Private User
5/3/2015 at 10:19 AM

Just waiting for someone to put up Wilhelm Tell. ; )

Private User
5/3/2015 at 10:59 AM

Basic coverage of the subject and various interpretations. ;-)

Interestingly, late in his career Flynn tried to make a movie about Tell (with himself in the lead, as he was by then getting rather mature-looking), but never got enough financial backing to finish it.

5/3/2015 at 2:15 PM

Read up on King John last night. Some modern scholars think he got a bad rap - others not so sure. He did some things well.

Private User
5/3/2015 at 4:55 PM

He did a lot of things well, but he was not a very nice guy. The Barons forced him to sign the Maga Charta and then he tried to back out of it, along with a lot of other notorious things.

5/4/2015 at 1:47 AM

:-) Fun discussion

5/4/2015 at 8:43 AM

Judith - Check out you connection to John "Doc" Holiday. You should be connected.

Private User
5/4/2015 at 8:27 PM

Doc Holiday! Now that one is interesting.

Private User
5/4/2015 at 8:28 PM

Doc Holiday! Now that one is interesting. How do I find his profile?

Private User
5/4/2015 at 8:42 PM

Here you go Judith (Judy) A. Loubris.

Doc Holliday

Private User
5/4/2015 at 8:46 PM

How about King Arthur.
Athrwys ap Tewdrig, King of Glywyssing & Gwent

In the "about" section.....

Now recognized to be the one known as KING ARTHUR of current fame and legendary. A war-leader and defender of his country - the right man in the right place at the right time.

Arthwys (Arthur) ap Meurig, King; St. Armel is your 37th great grandfather.

5/5/2015 at 6:22 AM

so this is the true king Arthure?

i cant wait to conect the Wearwolf of london anf my Gévaudan beast french blood line in geni

for my knowledge this profile should be label FICTIONAL

Athrwys ap Tewdrig, King of Glywyssing & Gwent

5/5/2015 at 8:54 AM

Martin - feel free to get hold of the managers and curator - but, from what I can see at a quick glance, the person in the profile existed - There is postulation that the fictional character was based on him.

As to your Wearwolf Bloodline - there's a story worth telling :-)

Private User
5/5/2015 at 8:55 AM

certainly not fictional. This was a real person.

Now what you say should be labeled finctional is probably this one,
King Arthur, Geoffrey of Monmouth Text

And is labeled as FICTIONAL.

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