Richard WARREN, Mayflower Pilgrim - No Contemporary supporting documents for this person

Private User I will ask but i dobut they will listen..

This is the main profile and MP for Richard Warren: Richard Warren, "Mayflower" Passenger

As you see, there are no parents.

If you are looking for historic profiles and certainly for the Mayflower Passengers, they will come up in search on the top if they have been curated.

The other is a duplicate which should be merged but first it should be detached from its parents. You might email the curator.

Gene Daniell or Heather (Fachet) Bond might know more about this they are the experts on that line

No one need be an expert - the curator notes are clear.

Anyone can merge. In this case in the parent conflict screen, select "unknown parents."

I've done it - this time - but there really is no reason to contact curator to merge an obvious duplicate into the Master Profile.

I was hoping people would come to that conclusion.

Richard Warren is my 9th great-grandfather. I have records from my great grand uncle, Elijah Elsworth Brownell, that has a very long lineage of Richard Warren. Elijah was a very wealthy man and sent lawyers to London to research his Brownell line that includes Richard Warren.

Uncle Elijah's records have Richard Warren married to Elizabeth Jeanette Marsh. His father is listed as Christopher Warren born at England. Christopher married Anne Webb born at Devonshire, England. Her father is Thomas Webb born also at Devonshire, England.

Christopher Warren's father is listed as William Warren born at England. William married Anne Mable born at Cornwall, England. Her father is Thomas Mable also born at Cornwall, England.

Elijah has listed 18 generations of Richard Warren's ancestors. There is a connection to William the Conqueror's daughter Gundred marrying William De Warren, Richard Warren's 15th great-grandfather.

If there is interest among the participants in this Discussion in seeing a continuation of Richard Warren's ancestors as recorded by Uncle Elijah, I will post it here.

Hey John Pat

Was this research before the will of Augustine Walker was found?

Elizabeth Warren

Richard Warren married Elizabeth Walker, at Great Amwell, Hertfordshire, on April 14, 1610. Elizabeth Walker was the daughter of Augustine Walker of Great Amwell. She was baptized at Baldock in September 1583. This information came to life with the discovery of Augustine Walker's will dated April 19, 1613, in which he named his daughter Elizabeth and her children Mary, Ann and Sarah Warren

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And from Please note this comment from Caleb Johnson, Mayflower researcher:

"Common mistake #1: Richard Warren's wife is not Elizabeth (Jewett/Jonatt/Juett) Marsh. This is easily disproven. Elizabeth (Jewett) Marsh was born in 1614, which makes her not only younger than Richard Warren's two oldest children, but also makes her only fourteen years old when Richard Warren died. [Mayflower Descendant 2:63]."

I need to make sure this comment is added to Mrs. Warren's profile:

From https://rogersgleanings.wordpress.com/

Richard’s widow Elizabeth, became a purchaser (shareholder) in the Plymouth Colony in his stead on March 7, 1636/7, by agreement of the entire Court. The Warren family owned extensive land in Plymouth, from Hob’s Hole to Eel River.  Elizabeth (Walker) Warren died on October 2, 1673, in Plymouth.

Also interesting (more detail)

According to the accepted legal convention of the times, all married women, even those conducting business independently, were regarded as representatives of their husbands. Only widows could be legally recognized as agents in their own right. Very few widows availed themselves of the privileges and the responsibilities that such independent status would entail.

One Pilgrim woman, however, breaks through the patriarchal conventions of 17th century society. By the longevity of her widowhood and by the independence of her actions, Elizabeth Warren emerges from the collective category of "Pilgrim Mother" as a highly individual woman.

Unlike the majority of Plymouth Colony women, Elizabeth Warren’s name appears regularly in the records of Plymouth Colony during the long period of her widowhood. She appears first as paying the taxes owed by all heads of household. She appears next as executor of her husband’s estate.

Elizabeth then appears as one of the Plymouth Colony "Purchasers." In 1626, 53 (male) citizens of Plymouth Colony agreed to underwrite some of the Colony’s debt in a complicated arrangement with its financial backers. Richard Warren was one of the original 1626 Purchasers. The list of the names of the Purchasers did not appear in the Plymouth Colony Records, however, until several years had passed. During that time, Richard Warren had died. In a startling break with tradition, the list of Purchasers does not contain the name of Richard Warren but, instead, "Elizabeth Warren, widow." The Court felt it necessary to explain this unprecedented move, noting that Elizabeth was listed in Richard’s stead because Richard, "dying before he had performed the bargain, the said Elizabeth performed the same after his decease."

Hi Erica, I don't know when the research was done. When was the will of Augustine Walker found?

We'll have to add Jeanett to the list of middle names for Elizabeth Marsh.

Elijah has Richard's and Elizabeth's daughter, Elizabeth, married to Richard Church. Do you agree?

Private User what is your take on this.. you seem to know this line better then me.. currious Erica Howton thanks for sharing.. It's nice to learn this way with out objectivetivy and arugments

John Alden, "Mayflower" Passenger was is more my area never advanced the alden pabodie line down enough to see this...

Re: will being found. Unfortunately I don't have access the original Mayflower Descendant article where it was published (citation in the post above) to interpret the issue & date, but my impression was relatively recently -- mid 2000's?

Caleb Johnson is, as you probably know, the current premier Mayflower passenger researcher / historian & is (or was) the official person for The Mayflower Society. He did original research in England & was able to affirm / reject several lines.

The notes in mistress Warren's profile are particularly good, in my opinion. I urge everybody to take a moment to read through.

Michael I just added to Geni a Pabodie family who married into Ben Franklin's family! :):)

Hi Erica, Please see Elizabeth (Warren) Church's husband, Richard Church listed here on geni.com. If you go through Richard Warren's "Tree", you'll see that there are three Richard Churches listed as her husband. This line has to be cleaned up.

I hope everyone feels free to jump in & help merge. I've spent two hours on it today. :(

Hi Erica: Uncle Elija died in 1968, so he could not have known about the will.

I know i should help out and merge more but there are areas where i feel uncomortable and uncertian doing so with out proof of what i am getting into and this was one of them...

Michael - the research is done. Just follow the MP.

John Pat - my memory is correct - ish -- the will was found in 2002.

From http://wc.rootsweb.ancestry.com/cgi-bin/igm.cgi?op=GET&db=linda...

See Edward J. Davies, "The Marriage of Richard Warren of the Mayflower," The American Genealogist, Vol. 78, No. 2, April, 2003. (transcription of the will contained in that article reproduced below)

@Richard Warren - I built my tree up to Richard Warren using info that I received from my sister-in-law's ( Sueanne Beulow Despres) relatives who had done the research on her family. However, I entered Richard Warren's wife as ELIZABETH (JAUATT) MARSH, not Walker. I believe it was changed at some point when I got attached to the "World Tree" or was connected to another tree. That when The "photo "was added. I did not do the actual research so I can't argue about which is correct.

Hi Jan,

Hopefully the notes in the Master Profile (open it up out of tree view) and the attached documents (which include a transcript of Augustine Walker's will, found in 2002) makes the "correctness" case transparent on Mistress Warren's family of origin.

Happy to answer further questions on this Walker line.

Hi Erica,

Now that we have discredited Elizabeth Jeanette Marsh as Richard Warren's wife, would you be interested in reviewing Richard Warren's paternal lineage that my Uncle Elijah has listed?

John Pat

Sure!

What I've found if even if a connection has been (later) disproved such as the Augustine Walker will discovery, a review can open up other pathways, previously unknown. "One door closes, another opens.". And genealogy can cycle around also from evidence such as DNA studies.

Thanks Erica. I will post on the Tree.

John Pat

Hi Erica,

I went into the Tree to add Christopher Warren as the father of Richard Warren and someone has locked the file and written at Also Known as "not the father of Ricahrd Warren". So I have stopped pursuing this line.

John Pat

Correct the spelling of Richard.

To my understanding, Warren was not very usual name in England at that time. What is the evidence that Richard was in NO WAY related to Christopher Warren or Alyce Webbe.

For my years in genealogy, there often is some correlation with people with same last name being at the same time a relative. This should not be totally unheard of... Many books in this field state the same thing: children usually inherit the last name from their parents.

In some of the Viking lines I see people with a mature age of 183 having children, and when I contacted the MP curators I got answer that the line is there to ensure that there will not be additions óf "parents which would not be making sense", to avoid discussions on other alternatives.

So: I would like to understand the strong denial of this connection. In very many cases there are omissions in records, deniable wills, family stories questioning fatherhood...

In these discussions I often see that a document from 1800s is a "convincing evidence" of not allowing some family mergers to happen in geni.com trees from 1500s. Documents written 300 years later (with that time science!), should (to me) deny the modern understanding of genealogical lines.

Why last name anymore does not mean anything for relationship?

Am I totally wrong in all this? Should I just take "my business elsewhere"?

Confused in North Carolina,

Jukka

When a last name is very, very common, it is not a good idea to assume relationship without some fairly solid evidence. One should also check Y-DNA findings to see if a connection has been (or can be) ruled out on the basis of haplogroup incompatibility.

You *will* from time to time find two men with the same or very similar names, in the same place at the same time, who *cannot possibly* be related any later than the founding of Sumer....