baal shem tov genealogy

You should look at Chaim Freedman's book Eliyahu's Branches and contact him through his publisher, if you have reliable documented evidence.

I believe that there are some on Geni who know the Geni tree for the Baal Shem Tov. Email the managers.

thanks Hatte. As for teh geni.com tree, I suspect that important errors have crept in, and therefore am studying and trying to either confirm or refute.

Private User and Yigal Burstein can help.

let's try it

I have not researched the Baal Shem Tov. A few years ago someone planned to publish or organise a reunion of descendants. I suggest a search of Jewishgen's message archive as well as posting an enquiry to find a suitable researcher. Also on RavSig.

Chaim

I am going to very briefly summarize what the main that I am studying is . If anyone can comment, then I would be interested to hear it. We know that the Baal Shem Tov's daughter UDEL/AIDEL had a daughter Feiga Ashkenazi. Feiga's daughter Perel (married name Horodenker) had a daughter BELLA HORODENKER. So far , so good. Apparently, many people, including GENI.COM managers of the baal shem tov profile, have allowed a major error to creep in regarding BELLA. According to the erroneosu information, BELLA married zvi hersh rosenberg, who was the patriarch of the well known Rosenberg book, issued about 2004. The book researched over 11,000 members of this rosenberg (and related ) families. Rosenberg REFUTES the connection between BELLA and the rosenberg family. If that said marriage would actually have taken place, then there would be tens of thousands of additional baal shem tov descendants.
Now, I would like to hear your comments.
thanks
nathan
nathan@nrosencga.com

Baal Shem Tov, Israel ben Eliezar Isserles

You can get a list of descendants, by clicking "descendants" and then can filter for "claimed" profiles so you get all of his living descendants who are Geni users. I see 347 of them.

I just added to Beila Horodenker's profile in the sources tab a copy of a page in a book that traces the Rosenbergs to the Baal Shem Tov

Sorry Private User, it was late at night and my brain was fuzzy, but you did have helpful suggestions anyway ;)

בהצלחה

Hi Nate:
My wife is a Direct Descendent of both you and the Baal Shem Tov ... Through her father's side, the "Hager Dynasty"...they seem to be related to every Jewish Person in the world????
...I don't know if I can help but please feel free to ask questions.
Good Luck,
Norm

Randy, the Geni tree has Beila Horodenker (Baal Shem Tov descendant) married to Rosenberg. The evidence seems to suggest that this is a major error. Because of this error, the geni "descendants" of the baal shem tov are in the thousands or more. Eliminate this marriage, and you eliminate all the Rosenbergs as Baal Shem descendants. Therefore, as you say, you can certainly get a list in geni of baal shem descendants, however, because of the reason I mention, the list would be wrong and vastly inflated.

Yigal Burstein can help fix any mistakes. What is the evidence against the Rosenbergs?

We need indeed evidence for or against it before any change is considered

Yigal and Randy, it appears that the marriage was set up on geni.com by someone who was working with erroneous information.
Lets backtrack. The origin of this error seems to be in the writings of the "Chalisser Rebbe" after the Holocaust. He wrote in his book (and I have never seen the said book, but multiple people have confirmed that he wrote it) that the wedding between Beila (Bella) and Rosenberg took place, and therefore, all the Rosenbergs (and descendants) listed in the Rosenberg book of 2004 are descended from the Baal Shem Tov.

From what I understand, the assertion that the wedding took place was based on flimsly or non-existent evidence. It appears that the Chalissa Rebbe wanted to become a descendent of the Baal Shem Tov! This was his chance!
Rosenberg's wife was apparently a Beila, but NOT the BEILA that was the baal shem tov's great grand daughter!

But again, its NOT ME that is making this claim. It is Rosenberg, in his important book (in Hebrew) in 2004, in which he clearly states that his family is NOT descended from the Baal Shem Tov.

So there you have it.

Now, the question is, can we find an opposite viewpoint that cogently explains the other side of the argument??

thanks,
Nathan

http://refer.23andme.com/v2/share/6172318992872804242

who is Chalisser Rebbe, what's his name?

Itche Zalmanov Chalisser Rebbe is probably meant to be read as "The Lisser Rebbe", ie. Ha Lisser Rebber.

R' Jacob Lorbeerbaum, the Chavat Da'at

I am referring to the Challisa Rebbe mentioned in Nathan Rosenshein's comment above, which cannot possibly mean Reb Yaakov of Lisa

Rav avrum abish kaner , apparently was the chalisser rebbe or chalisser ruv. I am no expert on that line of rabbis,but that is what popped up upon online search.... I guess he could be called the CHALISSER OR IN IVRIT, HA'CHALISSER

Nathan Rosenshein Thank you, that information is very helpful indeed. So I have found lots of material on Rav Avraham Abish Kaner of Halissa, Haifa.

Halissa is a neighborhood of Haifa: http://www.haifa-israel.info/NeveSheanan.html

"Letter handwritten and signed by the Rebbe of Czchów - Rabbi Avraham Abish Kanner - the Rabbi of Halisa. [Haifa]" https://www.liveauctioneers.com/item/34460595_collection-of-letters...

http://www.hollanderbooks.com/cgi-bin/hollander/49081
Sefer Ohel kedoshim.
by Kanner, Avraham Abish

Getting back to the issue at hand, namely the descendants of the baal shem tov......Rosenberg claims in his well documented book that they (the rosenbergs) do NOT descend from the Baal Shem Tov. That makes the Chalissa Rebbe's assertion wrong, based on Rosenberg. That means that on the geni.com tree, the marriage between beila horodenker (descendant of baal shem tov) and rosenberg is wrong. Rosenberg apparently married a beila, but not the baal shem tov's descendant beila horodenker. If what I have written is correct, then the geni.com marriage bewtween beila horodenker and rosenberg must be REMOVED from the record. I woudl love to hear opposing viewpoints or refutations.

just researched R' Avrohom Abish Kaner. On his Matzeiva it says he is descendant from the Besh"t through the "Degel Machne Efrayim", and that is also what comes up on Geni. he doesn't descent from the Rosenbergs. so, we can't say that he made up that the Rosenbergs descent from the Besh"t in order to claim Yichus to the Besh"t

Nathan Rosenshein " . . . the marriage between beila horodenker (descendant of baal shem tov) and rosenberg is wrong. Rosenberg apparently married a beila, but not the baal shem tov's descendant beila horodenker."

Perhaps a note on Beila's profile mentioning that this connection is still under research and not yet verified, might be a beginning.

If you want to go further, you might consider creating a project with the goal to clarify correct this line, and invite managers for profiles alongside Beila's to the project to help provide more information.

Below are examples of projects created to rectify similar type problems:

1. http://www.geni.com/projects/Fix-Leibish-Teomim-Frankel/9971

2. http://www.geni.com/projects/Yechiel-Michel-The-Maggid-of-Zlotchov-...

3. http://www.geni.com/projects/Elimelech-Weissblum-of-Lizensk-Family-...

Itche Zalmanov Excellent research! Would you be able to add this information to R' Avraham Abish Kaner's profile, either in the About Me section, or as a source document?

there is already a link in the about section

Dear Malka and Itche, till 120,
Thanks for your feedback. Is there anyone who has any idea about the SOURCE or any EVIDENCE that backs up the assertion that Beila Horodenker married Rosenberg. It is almost certainly wrong, as Rosenberg, who researched his family history for DECADES, wrote in his book that he was not descended from the Besht, and any indication to the contrary was incorrect.

Nathan Rosenshein Looking through the tree for the first time, it seems that there is indeed a problem with Beila's Husband's family name being noted as "Rosenberg".

It is in fact Beila's daughter Rivka who married into the Rosenberg family, and that family's name was originally Elentman which they changed to Rosenberg. So this is where the Rosenberg family name originates on this tree.

1. Beila Rosenberg (Horodenker): Baila Zavidka -Zyadger Rosenberg
1a. Beila's Husband: R' Tzvi Hersh Rottenberg, AB"D Tlust

2. Beila's Mother, Breslever Rebbe's sister, Perel Horodenker: Perel Horodenker, [Breslaver sister]

3. Beila's Daughter: Rivka Miriam Rosenberg
3a. Beila's Daughter's Husband: Rabbi Avraham Eber Rosenberg

See note on Avraham Rosenberg's profile: ie. The family name was Elentman and they changed it to Rosenberg due to war times and a need to cross the border.

See Source: http://books.google.com/books?id=hu4RAQAAIAAJ&pg=PA335&img=...

Horowitz Family Tree Chart:
http://www.microtarget.com/HorowitzAssociation/Horowitz%20Rev.6.2.pdf

Enlarge, and go across to column 1766/1790, then scroll down about 20 profiles to-:

1. Tzvi Hirsch Zavadka (Rozenberg)

2. Tzvi Hirsch's Daughter: Rivka Miriam Zavadka (married to ) Avraham Eber Elentman/Rosenberg

3. Rivka & Avraham Eber's son, Yakov Rozenberg d. 1884 Tiveria (married) Nissel Kahane

Re #1 Tzvi Hirsch Zavadka, it seems his mother was a Rozenberg according to this chart. That is apart from the Elentman/Rosenberg that his daughter married. In fact, it might have been his wife's maternal name of Rozenberg that Rivka's husband adopted instead of Elentman.