"Ferch" and "Verch" : Please discuss

Private User

11/27/2015 at 7:51 AM

In working on the medieval Welsh profiles, I've been trying to keep things simple (putting various spellings of names into the nickname field, for instance, so that they can be found easily, for instance). For sons, I'm changing "ap" to "ab" in front of vowels; that's easy enough.

But for daughters, it's more complicated.

The foundational form of the word meaning "daughter of" is "merch," the unmutated Welsh for "daughter" -- that's pretty much a non-starter on Geni; it shows up once, in Elsbeth ferch Owain Glendower, of Hanmer -- but it doesn't occur much even in the earlier MSS -- and Alice verch Glendower is WAY too late to be using it.

The real problem is in "ferch" vs "verch."

The spelling "ferch" is the correct one currently -- there is no "v" in Welsh; the single "f" is pronouced as a "v."

BUT the medieval MSS used, for the most part, "verch." English influence, but that's what the MSS read. And it's the most common useage in the earlier genalogies.

Here's Wikipedia on Welsh orthography: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Welsh_orthography -- note the part under "history," wherein "v" shows up.

If you search for "ferch" and then "verch" on geni, you'll find that they are both commonly used, but "verch" is most common.

So here's the gist of all this:

"ferch" is the correct spelling in Modern Welsh, but "verch" was commonly used in the Middle Ages, and shows up most frequently in the genealogies.

A few weeks ago, I didn't care so much about this, but now I'm needing to make sense of conflicting data, and I'd like to have a sense of the hive mind on this issue.

Here, for instance, are three of Owen Glendower's daughters, all with a different spelling of "daughter of":
Elsbeth ferch Owain Glendower, of Hanmer
Jonet ferch Owain Glyndwr
Catrin verch Owain

Thoughts?

Erica Howton C

11/27/2015 at 9:11 AM

I can tell you what others have said:

from Heather Rose Jones

http://heatherrosejones.com/welshfaqs/names.html#Ferch

Ferch vs. Verch

Question: I keep seeing the "daughter" word in names spelled both "verch" and "ferch" -- which one is right? I'm confused.

Answer: It depends on the time-period. The use of the letter "f" to spell the sound [v] doesn't become commonly widespread until around the 15-16th century. (It's used in certain positions in words, and in certain words earlier than that, but it doesn't become typical in all situations until late period.) The lenited form of the word meaning 'daughter' is normally spelled with a "v" up through the 15th century or so, then "f" becomes more typical (in Welsh-language contexts) after that. In English contexts (e.g., legal records) the spelling with "v" continues through the end of period, because it represents the pronunciation in English.

So, for example, if your father's name were Dafydd, and your name were written in Welsh in the 16th century, it might appear written as "Myfanwy Fach ferch Dafydd", but the same name written in the 13th century would more likely be something like "Myvanwy Vach verch David". (Just to pick two time-points -- of course there are other spellings possible at other times.)

----

from soc.gen.med

https://groups.google.com/forum/#!topic/soc.genealogy.medieval/ndUd...

>Ferch is the correct one. There is no V in Welsh. A single F is
>pronounced as a v is. This probably arose because the clerks who
>wrote out medieval documents were English and were unaware of Welsh
)differnces.

>I suppose one should refer to and quote old documents, exactly as
>they were written but present Welsh is Ferch.
>
This is true, in modern Welsh. However, Middle Welsh spelling was about
as variable as any other medieval language you may care to name, and the
/v/ sound was often rendered as "v".

At any rate, the two are pronounced the same. Ferch is the "correct" one
for modern Welsh - not that many modern Welsh folk use that style of
naming! :) (who knows, it may make a comeback...)

Private User

11/27/2015 at 9:40 AM

Yep, I have seen this -- a nicely clear discussion.

What I'm thinking at the moment is to use verch and ferch according to time period, AND put the alternate spelling in the nickname field.

That way profiles can be found using either spelling.

Erica Howton C

11/27/2015 at 10:19 AM

Agreed.

Dean Richard Hobart PRO

7/18/2024 at 9:12 AM

I have a question about the name for this profile (which actually has a link to this discussion). Catherine Forden in relation to the other document linked (which gives her 'name') https://www.geni.com/documents/view?doc_id=6000000173409227962 She is found in the middle of the page as wife to 13 Walter of Radnor.

FIRST
So am I correct to assume that the lower case f. seen at her listing "13 Catrin f. John Forden means that one would use ferch?

Also, I see that the profile was just Catherine Forden, but should it actually be 'Catrin ferch John', or is it 'Catrin ferch John Forden'? I am confused because it seems like it would not be 'Catrin ferch Forden'?

I don't know how much of the father's name is included with the child's - or can that vary within the family. Just the first name or the whole thing?

SECOND
Then moving to #14 with her daughter in law, Catherine Forster. Is she 'Catherine ferch Forster' or one can't really know without the father info? Is there a distinction when one sees women's names written 'ABC f. XYZ' versus just 'ABC XYZ'. Or does that reflect the passage of time with the ferch dropping out of favor to the use of the father's surname (or mother's surname if illegitimate)?

Is there a default?

Thanks.

Private User

7/18/2024 at 8:28 PM

Catharine is written “Catherine f John Forden” in the chart because she is the daughter of john Forden. You could conceivably call her “Catherine ferch John Forden,” but it’s not a Welsh name, so that doesn’t make sense.

Catherine Forster is simply Catharine Forster because we don’t know who her father is. Nobody is “ferch Forster,” or “ferch Forden” because those are surnames.

Catherine Forden can be Catharine ferch John, or Catharine ferch John Forden, if needed, though as I mention above, it doesn’t make sense to turn her into a Welsh woman, when she has an Engkish surname, and she can be Catherine Forden, which makes the most sense, but she cannot be Catherine ferch Forden

However when you see the “f” in the Welsh women’s names in Bartrum’s charts, it does get written out as ferch. Because the Welsh DO write “daughter of” in names.

The default is that English names get written in English and Welsh names get written in Welsh.

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"Ferch" and "Verch" : Please discuss

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