Lucy (Council) Vick - the two Lucy Councils

These two projects have a good description of both.

https://www.geni.com/projects/Yeoman/18490

https://www.geni.com/projects/Clothiers/27180

So the West County clothiers were more concerned with trade, and Wells was a trading centre, wasn't it? And now we have how a woman 20 miles away could marry a Wells yeoman.

Yes, the Wikipedia page for Wells also mentions it as a trading centre for cloth.

"The community became a trading centre based on cloth making"

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wells,_Somerset

It all fits so far. I suspect John Counsell (father of Hodges) was connected with the cloth trade too. The best fit for his ancestry is a descendant of the Counsell’s of Wedmore but which one?

A John Counsell associated with a Hodges family. :). And we've already found they were fond of specific names (especially John) and used a wife's maiden name as a first name (Hardy Council as example). Was that a Virginia innovation, a West County custom, or ....

There is Margery Counsell (daughter of Richard) who married John Hodges circa 1610. She didn't have any brothers though. We know about her because she is in one of the wills I abstracted. I'm looking into her extended family at the moment.

As far as I know, Erica, the surname-as-first-name thing is a general Tudor-era phenomenon. It's found here and there, sporadically, with neither rhyme nor reason nor even a detectable pattern. It wasn't done earlier, or not by much, and it became more popular later, to the point where most people don't even recognize some "given" names as originally having been surnames. It may have started as a "gentry" thing (this is one fad the Royalty definitely did *not* start) and trickled downwards from there.

Those Tudor courtiers were so fashion forward ! So what's that pattern doing in yeoman class?

Aping their betters? :-D

This is going to take some time. Looking into the Hodges family of Wedmore at the moment, an armiger family. I think John Hodges was related to them as a younger son.
Some of the baptisms for key members of the family are missing though which means turning to other types of documents to try and piece it together.

I've tried looking up Rev Nicholas Street's tree for signs of any Streate's who went to Mells, but that family seems Taunton oriented.

John Counsell (father of Hodges) was from Theale, Wedmore and his father John (grandfather of Hodges) was a Yeoman from Theale.

Theale is a village in the parish of Wedmore situated between the Village of Wedmore and Wells, Somerset.

John Counsell may have moved to Wells because his elder sister Isabell had married James Creese of Wells and moved there after her marriage in about 1629.

I still don’t know where the name Hodges has come from. John Counsell’s mother Jana may have been a Hodges but I havn’t been able to find a marriage record for her and she is not recorded in any of the Hodges wills I have read.

I’ve added John Counsell family to Geni.

There are some web trees for the Counsell’s of Theale. All of them give a different account for the family. I have started from scratch using the Wedmore parish registers and a few other documents I have found.

Congratulations, Charlene! Great work. More than that you're pulling a thread that echoes for generations: the thought is these kinship ties were forged in Somerset and persisted in Virginia.

Wedmore seems like it was rather a grim place. Hodges were lords of the manor, the tenants married each other and gradually moved up (or down) the social scale. The Westover family was cousin to the Counsells, who are described over many villages. Wedmore a "easy" dozen miles from Wells, which had a good grammar school.

This book is a wonderful glimpse of the village, based on the casebook of "a county Doctor"

http://www.somersetlarders.com/images/Pills_potions_vs_1.pdf

Looks like they inclined Parliament rather than Royalist & hints of non conformity, but nothing like the Dissenters of East Anglia.

Yes, http://www.somersetlarders.com is a great local history site for Wedmore!

Another interesting book
http://www.somersetlarders.com/images/brief_history_wedmore.pdf

Richard Councell of Theale is mentioned in the 1574 will of John Westover of Stoughton. I haven't been able to link him into the family though.

"Lyte" is a family name mentioned: this family? Joan Wadham

Ann Hodges, dau. of Captain George Hodges of Wedmore married George Lyte of Leighterton, Boxwell, Gloucester, gent.

https://books.google.com.au/books?id=2JY5M_pcdvQC&pg=PA62

What should we do about Hodges Council and family? They are all bogus with the exception of unknown Vick who seems to be a real person misplaced.

Some of the fakes (or time travellers) have come from this website
http://www.bjhughes.org/council.html which also has some good info on it.

Also tagging Erin Ishimoticha

Right, the BJ Hughes site is good on VA, but as we've learned, got itself mixed up on the many John Counsell's in England. I would want to merge the time travelers into their name matches, and simply disconnect Lucy? Vicks from Council altogether, but would want to hear from others.

That's what I was thinking too. Happy to wait to hear from others.

Update

I've reviewed and revised the two earliest generations of the Counsell's of Theale. I had previously recorded John Counsell of West Theale and John Counsell of East Theale as father and son. After reviewing some of the parish register entries, the dates fit better for them being brothers. As mentioned earlier in this discussion, it was not unusual to have two living siblings with the same name in Somerset families. Their current relationship is speculative and may need to be further revised if new information becomes available.

Great work Charlene.

I am getting really confused with the 2 Lucy Council thing. It seems that branch of my family tree is different everytime I log on. For the longest time mine was linked with Lucy from the Hardy line. I had the tree all written down, later, someone merged something and suddenly I was cut off. I reestablished the line and when I come back, someone else has done the same thing.
What about the information from findagrave.com? How reliable is findagrave?

Christopher James Wright is this incorrect?

Lucy? (Council?) Vick is Christopher James Wright's 8th great grandmother!
https://www.geni.com/path/Christopher-Wright+is+related+to+Lucy-Vic...

Findagrave.com is like any other user-contributing site - as good or as bad as the information provided.

The Vicks family, with a good rationale, suggests that the name of the wife of Joseph Vicks was perhaps Lucy Council. However she cannot have been the daughter of the emigrant Hodges Council; his children were younger, & his daughter Lucy married twice elsewhere. So currently we don't have parents for her, and are digging up Somerset England records to try and figure out the Council family better.

Which led us to find that the traditional parents of Hodges Council seem to be an error, and have better documented ones instead.

More research contributions welcome. There were a lot of Counsell's in England.

Yes, and the deed below does suggest a very close connection between the Vick and Councill families.

Some people have interpreted the unnamed wife of Joseph Vick as a Councill. It does make sense. For what other reason would Hodges Councill be be gifting land? Also, Joseph Vick names his daughter Lucy.

Another possible reason could be that Hodges and Lucy Councill were the godparents of Joseph Vick’s daughter Lucy.

Deed:
"On 20 Dec 1673 Hodges Council made a gift of land as follows: "I Hodges Councill of the Lower Parish do give.... to Joseph Vick of ye said Parish, 50 acres on Beaver Dam Swamp, adjacent to Robert Lawrence... and furthermore it is agreed that if the said Joseph Vicks have any other child beside this his present daughter, going by and bearing the name of Lucy, she shall after the decease of her father enjoy the land for her and her heirs, but if the aforesaid Jos. Vicks shall have any more children by this, his present wife, sonne or daughter, neverthe less the above Lucy shall enjoy ye land, but if the said Lucy shall decease without heirs, then the said land shall fall to either brother or sister, but if the said Joseph Vicks and his daughter Lucy shall both decease without heirs, then the aforesaid shall fall unto ye said Hodges Councill and his heirs again.
Signed Hodges Council
Witnesses: John Brown, Rowland Buckley, & Richard Booth"
This deed was recorded on 9 March 1681/2 (IOW DB1, p.480)

I think unknown Vick should be changed to “unknown Vick” or “N.N. Vick” as we don’t have any conclusive evidence that Joseph Vick’s wife was named Lucy or a Councill.

Perhaps a Hodges was one of the godparents of Hodges Councill. It would explain his unusual first name too.

Done.

Tagging the lucky god daughter to the discussion:

Lucy Parker

Thinking about other families in Colonial America, I think that in addition to being a god parent, there probably was a familial relationship; but it may not be the obvious one (sister of Hodges Council) I was thinking of.

For example yesterday I learned of the guardian to his 2nd wife's grand daughter leaving her a nice legacy (and solving a genealogical mystery).

In Virginia tobacco was the currency. I wonder what those business transactions might show.

And what I don't know are customs peculiar to Somerset culture, of which I've now learned a few.

>>> there probably was a familial relationship; but it may not be the obvious one (sister of Hodges Council) I was thinking of.

Yes, I was thinking that too and the dates fit better for the unknown wife to be a sister.

We don't have any proof at the moment though.

Wives side - sisters, half sisters, step sisters ... Ah well, we've done well finding the Somerset family, it really focuses Isle of Wight VA for me, I'm quite grateful.

I have an ancestor in there somewhere, nothing known about him except he left a heifer to his daughter, and his name was probably fake.

Here's another one purporting to be a Council. Olive Hardy

No baptism record or any other document has been found for an Olive Council born circa 1615 in England. She needs to be disconnected from fake parents
Hodges Council and Lucy Council

The name Council should be removed and replaced with unknown.