Guyanese and Trinidadian Ancestors from India

Norma Barran 7/11/2009
I had a look there is no CB No. There is a BR No in relation to my mother and one one related to my father Birth.

Joe Matthias 7/11/2009
To explain further I have in my possession a database containing all the passenger details who boarded ships from various ports in India and whose destination was South Africa - starting from 1860. I have discovered that the ships list number often would be found on the birth certificates of 2nd,, 3rd and subsequent generations of South African born Indians thus giving a clue to their parents provenance. I think that Guyana, Trinidad and other Caribbean islands would have a similar record of immigrants from India. Not sure what BR refers to British Resident

Frederick N Seecoomar 7/11/2009
Claudette Barran (Tony) might have Rambarran;s papers .If not Elizabeth Seecoomar U K (lizzy63 uk@ hotmail,com)
Rambarran came to British Guiana about 1880 as a child went back to India and
returned to British Guiana about 5 years later. Hesperus was the name of one of the ships The archives in U K might have some more information

Rita Persaud 8/11/2009
This is all so interesting - please keep us in the loop

Meena Barran 8/11/2009
This is interesting but I do not have the birth certificates of my parents. They do have birth certificates but I really do not know who are holding them

Joe Matthias 8/11/2009
If any members of our Guyanese/Trinidadian branch have contact with Brinsley Somaroo (University of the West Indies) or David Dabydeen,(Warwick University Centre for Caribbean Studies) direct contact with them might provide pointers as to what information on indentured labourers has been archived and where. I will explore this angle myself and check with my father-in-law whose had a drink or two with Brinsley, but I think there must be someone on our Guyanese/Trindadian tree who knows these two academics personally. Happy searching to all interested parties.

Claudette Kottiath-Barran 21/11/2009
The info I got from my Mother's Birth Certificate shows her grandparents' info as follows:
Bactowar was passenger No. 263 aboard the ship, Arcot in 1870;
his wife, Unoopy, was passenger No. 371 aboard the ship, Arcot in 1870 which sailed from India for Guyana.
How do I contact Brinsley Somaroo (University of the West Indies) or David Dabydeen (Warwick University Centre for Caribbean Studies) for further inquiries as to where in India these relatives lived.

Joe Matthias 26/11/2009
I will contact my father-in-law in Trinidad to ascertain Brinsley's contact details and you might want to contact Professor David Dabydeen directly:- D.Dabydeen@warwick.ac.uk to give you a few pointers to obtaining further information on ships' lists in Guyana. In South Africa ships' list information has been collated by an academic at one of the Universities - Professor Joy Brain. You might also google the Guyana National archives or such like.

Norma Barran 26/11/2009
Thanks. I know some Bactawars for a number of years and he wants to join in this discussion to know more. I have asked Claudette to link him up. He knows the names mentioned above.

Ingrid Ocasio 12/4/2017
Incredible material that shows how far and wide we have branched and the remarkable heights some have reached. Thank you for sharing this historical information. Would love to get my hands on a timeline similar to this for South America.

Joe Matthias 2 May 2017
On 12/04/2017 you may recall indicating your interest in your Guyanese ancestory in a discussion blog on Indian South Africans. I would like to draw your attention to a project on Geni titled East Indian Dispersion which might provide more pointers to your own ancestory. There's also substantial academic research on the Indian diaspora in the Caribbean. Among the notable academics on the Indian diaspora are David Dabydeen, Brinsley Samaroo, Ron Ramdin, Gaiutra Bahadur.and Marina Carter.

Ingrid Ocasio replied 2 May 2017
Hi Joe, Yes, I'm extremely interested in finding my lineage and where in India (if even possible) we originated.

Joe Matthias 2 May 2017
This site may be useful: http://www.nationalarchives.gov.uk/help-with-your
research/research...

Ingrid Ocasio replied 2 May 2017
Thanks Joe. I found a similar link a while back. The challenge lies in tracing my ancestry by name since most of them, historically, gave their children their first name (ex: dad's name is Bhagwandin Ramjit; his father's name was Ramjit Shewbarran). Not sure the purpose behind that but it makes it that much more difficult to find the lineage back to India. Thanks for your help and efforts.

Links to some useful websites:

1. Guyana National Archives –
http://guyananationalarchives.com/faq.aspx

2. Coolies, Containment and Resistance
http://www.uvic.ca/research/centres/capi/assets/docs/studentessays/...

3. http://guyanachronicle.com/2009/05/05/the-coolie-ships

4. http://guyanachronicle.com/2014/05/05/east-indian-immigration-1838-...

Ingrid, this article by Anu from Mumbai might help us gain an understanding of some Indian naming conventions.
“What’s in a name? That which we call a rose by any other name would smell as sweet.”
So wrote Shakespeare. It is obvious he was never in India, for here, there is a whole lot hidden in just a name…
As in most countries, surnames in India are mostly derived from the place we belong to, or the profession of our ancestors. The only distinctive ones are those where the surname is actually the name of a caste – a concept unique to the subcontinent!
The surname is something we are born with, and have no choice over, so it would be more interesting to talk about the part that we do choose – the first name! Aptly called, this is the first thing we think of when a child is born. In fact, we even decide the name before the child is born. As with everything in India, there are many ‘traditional’ ways of choosing the name of a child. Let me give just a couple of examples from our family’s experiences in naming children:
The most common system is that of using ‘family names’. This means that the first male child is named after the paternal grandfather, the second male child after the maternal grandfather, and so on, with the girls being named after their paternal and maternal grandmothers. Imagine the confusion this causes – with many children having the same name! In addition to this, in southern India a father’s name is used as a surname – what ensues is total chaos!
My husband’s name is Shankar. He has been named after his grandfather, who used to be called Shankar Iyer. (Iyer used to be our traditional appellation, based on our caste. We left it off in the last generation, being opposed to a caste-based nomenclature). My father-in-law’s name is Jayaram, so he is Jayaram Shankar, and my husband is Shankar Jayaram! Their identities confound everyone from our postman to the bank and even our passport office! This is why we decided to nip the situation in the bud and named our son Samhith (a word from our holy books, the Vedas)!
The other system involves the horoscope – mapping the planetary positions at the time of birth. (The horoscope is an inevitable part of Indian life, and it shows up in every possible and impossible situation!). In the northern parts of the country, every star is associated with a letter of the alphabet, and a kid’s name begins with the alphabet of the constellation he/she is born under. In the south, the kid is named after the constellation itself (or a variation of the name). This is how I got my name – from the star named ‘Anuradha’ (in the constellation Scorpio).
That’s not all. The most common system is that of naming a kid after a God/Goddess. Sounds simple? Yes, but just till you realize that in Indian mythology, there are 33 crore (1crore = 10 million) gods and goddesses!
Another interesting system is that of multiple names – the first and most important name in any family is the ‘family name’ – the name of an elder / ancestor. But then, it is not considered appropriate for the younger members to take the name of an elder, so another name is chosen for use in day-to-day life. And then there are pet names – or short names that we earn as we grow!
I was named after a great grandmother, under the condition that the name never be used. In my grandfather’s words – “I don’t want all of you to scold my mother every time you scold her!!!!” And then after a star, the name I use officially. This one was deemed too long, and I was called Deepa at home – the choice of a neighborhood kid I don’t even remember. The result – I am called Anu by my friends, Anuradha by my husband’s family and Deepa by my family! So, the question arises – who am I?

1845: The Indians and indentureship By KIM JOHNSON 08/08/1999

WHATEVER lies they were told back home, it's certain that the indentured Indians didn't come here for their health. The licensed immigrant recruiters in India hired men known as arkatias to scour the villages for willing migrants. Arkatia refers to a hook, like the kind used to catch fish.

Each man caught earned the recruiter three pounds, each woman three pounds, 13 shillings and sixpence. In 1845, 300 arkatias covered 5,000 square miles and brought in 3,000 Indians. An arkatia might have earned 50 pounds-a fortune in nineteenth century India.

The District Magistrate of Ghazipur described in 1871 how immigrants were tricked into migrating: "The arkatias entice the villagers with a wonderful account of the place for which the emigrants are wanted and bring in their victims from long distances to the neighbourhood of the licensed recruiter...

"The arkatia disappears. On arrival at the sub-depot, the intending emigrants are told the exact facts of their prospects, and on hearing them, decline to proceed. Very well, says the licensed recruiter, you are all at perfect liberty to return, but I have here a little bill against you for road expenses, and as you have no money I must have your lotah (bowl) and dopattah (dhoti) and anything else that will procure me a refund of the amount I have expended. The wretched coolie may be a hundred miles from home, and finding that he has the option of returning penniless (and naked)... and of emigrating, chooses the latter. But this is not voluntary emigration."

The first immigrant ship to Trinidad, the Fatel Rozack, a Muslim-owned vessel, landed 225 Indians at Nelson Island on May 3, 1845, only six of its passengers having died on the journey. Of those who survived, one was an idiot and three unfit for work. But once the British took over the business of shipping immigrants, packing them in the ships like sardines, conditions worsened.
From 4.5 per cent dying at sea in 1851, the toll rose to 17.3 per cent in 1857. On the Roman Emperor 88 died out of 313, on the Maidstone 92 of 375, on the Merchantman 120 of 385.
Subsequent labour on the estates ruined the health of even the robust. Indians lay sick on the roads and pavements of Port of Spain. The Colonial Hospital was overcrowded with them. Those who didn't make it there littered the canefields with their skeletons. Particularly debilitating was ulcerated feet.