Elizabeth Proctor (Norton) - Trouble

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Also tagging here a mystery William Proctor with probably a wrong death location. Maybe he can be better placed by working on his wives & daughter. I didn’t find him in House of Proctor so far.

I don't trust the "daughter of Simon Marriott and Unknown Miller" parentage at Mary Proctor There are no dates, place names or documentation for Simon Marriott, and how would they know what his wife's maiden name was if they don't even know her first name? "Mary Unknown" seems like a more prudent name for the wife of the George Proctor born in 1667.

As far as logic checking is concerned, today I had a terrible time just figuring out what the question was in this thread lol. But I'm not sure about this statement: "These children cannot have been from widow Marriott who was married elsewhere in the 1660s."

Are we confident about this? If Widow Marriott is Elizabeth Burgess, then HOP says that she was previously married to John Bishop Sr. But they don't give his date of death or any documentation for him, just some information on an award to John Jr, the son that Widow Marriott had with him. The information that we currently have on William Marriott's first wife Alice Warren is that she died before 1660. I haven't seen anything that would prevent Widow Marriott from marrying William any time after that.

The main objection to Elizabeth Burgess being Widow Marriott is that HOP says she was born in 1621, so she would have been pretty old to be having children in the 1660s. But I'm no confident that this is the right birth year. If you look at the Notes section at https://www.houseofproctor.org/genealogy/getperson.php?personID=I26... you'll see a lot of sketchy information. It says she was born in 1621, that she married George Proctor in 1642 (not 1672), that she died in 1664, and that her parents were Matthias Marriott and Alice Warren.

The information on her has obviously evolved, and they may not have found a better birthdate for her yet. In fact there's a glaring discrepancy right now. The link says that she died in January 1672 and William Marriott died between March and May 1672. He would have had to marry someone else really fast in order to leave a widow behind.

Yes, that b c 1621 date for widow Marriott has to go; if Tyler is correct, it could belongs to the 1st Alice (Warren) Marriott. Who was dead by 1660 when William Marriott married Susannah Swann, so he married his widow after that. I also don’t believe that comment of she died Jan 1672 as that would be “before” March 1672 when George Proctor was clearly married to her.:)

This could give us an Age Range:

From https://www.houseofproctor.org/genealogy/getperson.php?personID=I26...

Will and Order Book

July 2, 1672. Petition of George Proctor, who married the relict of Major William Marriott.

Sept. 4, 1672 Cout proceedings show that the wife of George Proctor was formerly the wife of Major William Marriott, and before that the wife of John Bishop. Francis Mason was guardian of John Bishop, orphan.

So her Bishop son was born no earlier than 1654 (1672 - 18 yrs old).

I’ll see if there’s anything else on Simon Marriot

Here’s more details on John Bishop Sr & Jr:

https://www.ancestry.com/boards/thread.aspx?mv=flat&m=429&p...

It is a Genealogy Genforum Posting by Bob BAID from 15 December 2002. [pretty sure they mean Bob Baird, not Baid]

.... On 7 July 1674 a portion of the estate was awarded to John BISHOP. He was evidently the son of William MARRIOTT's widow (formally the widow of John BISHOP Sr.) per an Orphans Court judgment (which no longer exists). George PROCTOR was again ordered to pay out of the estate to John BISHOP in 1677.

There are two entries in Deed Book 2 regarding this estate. Page 37: On 7 November 1673 an accounting shows payments to William ATKINSON in right of his wife and Mr. SALWAY in as marrying Elizabeth PECK. These women were apparently legatees of the will, but not daughters of William MARRIOTT. Page 323: a 7 November 1682 accounting which shows George PROCTOR paid in right of his wife one-third of the estate, and the rest to Samuel THOMPSON who married the "surviving of ye two orphans" Mary. It would seem William MARRIOTT had two children, William and Mary. William died before 1682 and Mary married Samuel THOMPSON in March 1682 "daughter and heiress of Major William MARRIOTT, of Surry" (Surry Records).

I remain at a loss as to information about the elusive John BISHOP Sr. I do know that in February 1660, 44 year old William MARRIOTT married 19 year old Susanna SWANN. She died "eight months and twenty two days" later, 25 November 1660.

William MARRIOTT died before May 1672, and his widow Elizabeth married George PROCTOR on 4 September 1672. This would mean she married William after the death of his wife Susanna in November of 1660.

William and Mary would have to have been born in, or after, 1657 to have been minor children in 1672. This leaves a question as to the mother. Susanna SWANN died "without issue" and if Elizabeth was the mother why were the children considered orphans? Perhaps there was a different definition of orphan in 17th century Virginia or perhaps William MARRIOTT had a spouse we have yet to uncover.

——

We know that Orphan meant fatherless and notice that George in right of his wife (not “deceased wife”) in 1682 to John Bishop Jr.

This looks like a different Bishop family but there’s a land record reference that caught my eye:

http://www.martinosworld.com/Genealogy/Etherton-Family-Tree.htm

Land patterned [SIC: patented] 9 Apr 1651 300 acres on the southside of Upperchipoakes Creek known as Swan Bay in Surrey Co. .

A person who seems fairly knowledgeable says that the Widow Marriott married George Proctor on September 4, 1672. I think this is the first time I've seen a date for it, and I don't know where this information came from, so it's not necessarily accurate: https://www.ancestry.com/boards/thread.aspx?mv=flat&m=429&p...

I have sort of a vague memory of seeing someone appointed as a guardian for John Bishop Jr, but I don't remember any of the details like the date or the name of the guardian. I might be thinking of someone else entirely that's not even connected to this family. But if John Jr was a minor when his father passed, that would point toward his mother probably being a fairly young widow. It would also give her an incentive to make Marriott promise to give some money to her son at some point in time as part of the marriage contract, similar to the deal we saw when we were sorting out the Mary Gwaltney mess. If there wasn't such a deal, then I don't have an explanaation for the money that was awarded to John Jr after Marriott's death.

1672 - Francis Mason was guardian of John Bishop, orphan.

1677 - George PROCTOR was again ordered to pay out of the estate to John BISHOP in 1677.

The 1677 date suggests to me John JR’s coming of age and into his inheritance, which would make him born 1656 (if this is age 21).

Proctor apparently was a wealthy enough & fiscally responsible person & managed the Marriott Estate on behalf of the widow & 2 Orphan children (who were not necessarily Elizabeth’s but were underage). It’s possible there had been a Surry County Orphan’s Court record, similar to the abstract Boddie published for John Bishop, for William
Marriott Jr & Mary (Marriott) Thompson that had designated a guardian also, but Bob Baird (I think) was saying in his Orphans article that a guardian was not always appointed.

Marriott may have previously managed the John Bishop Estate, at least the widow’s 3rd, and so that responsibility passed on to George Proctor.

So - women married often & young. If John Bishop was Elizabeth’s 1st Marriage & their son was b c 1656, her date of birth is more likely say 1637; and there is no evidence supporting a date of death so far.

Found Francis Mason.

https://www.colonial-settlers-md-va.us/getperson.php?personID=I0605...

===
Wills & Administrations of Surry County, VA 1671-1750 by ELizabeth Timberlake Davis, Published by Genealogical Publishing Co, Balitmore 1980,.
p 93 -

MASON, Francis: Leg. - To son, James mason one-half of 300 acres of Land formerly belonging to John Bushup, late of this county, deceased.

It sounds like William Marriott may have been in effect serving as the guardian for John Junior, and a new guardian was appointed after Marriott's death. Because women weren't suitable guardians for their own children (eyeballs rolliing). Unless Elizabeth Burgess Bishop Marriott really did die in 1672, making John Junior a true orphan with no living parents and not even a stepfather.

I think there were close relationships between John Bishop (Sr & Jr), Francis Mason, and William Marriott.

John Bishop Sr had the headright on William Marriott & others, and got 300 acres for it. Francis Mason was appointed guardian by the Governor. If you look at his will, he had a custodial role for at least one other child. And guess who ended up with the Bishop 300 acres at John Bishop JR’s Death; Francis Mason, who passed to his son James.

William Marriott held a much larger property. It’s not explicitly listed in Samuel Thompson’s will (husband of Mary Marriott) so ownership would need to look in that direction; George Proctor would have only managed widow Marriott’s 1/3 as dower rights which would have reverted to the Marriott heiress at her death (and from there, if not sold off, to the Thompson heirs).

In other words, Marriott was explicitly “not” chosen as the Bishop guardian. According to Bob Baird, stepfather’s often weren’t, because the Virginia courts suspicioned “conflict of interest.” Can’t imagine why. Still, if a teenager selected their guardian, they often chose brothers, uncles ... if the courts selected, they liked Neighbors.

My reasoning was that if Francis Mason was chosen as guardian in 1672, then before that date it was either someone else or there was no court-appointed guardian. The general belief is that John Bishop Sr died before 1672 and his widow then married William Marriott. So the event that caused the selection of a guardian in 1672 presumably was the death of William Marriott and/or the death of John Junior's mother. It's always possible that there was a different reason, for example John Junior didn't like his current guardian (or his new stepfather George Proctor) and was old enough to have some say in who he lived with.

George Proctor administering the estate and also marrying the widow sure looks like a conflict of interest to me. And if Elizabeth Burgess actually died a couple of months before Marriott did, the widow wasn't John Junior's mother. There was a quick turnaround on spouses in those days so it's possible. If I remember right, the court had to order Proctor to give John Junior his inheritance twice before he actually did it.

Bob Baird points out that guardianship rarely was coupled with custody: the presumption was the child lived with the mother.

You have a good point about the date. I think John Bishop Sr may have died 1658, when John Jr re patented the 300 acres (I think - apparently could hold title, but not sell on their own). So who was guardian 1658 - 1672?

From https://www.wikitree.com/wiki/Marriott-43#_note-7

The below is a repatent of a 1641 patent:

25 Mar 1658: JOHN BISHOPP, son & heir of John Bishop, dec'd., 300 acs. James City Co., 25 Mar. 1658, p. 176, (263). Wly. upon land of Thomas Crouch, Nly. upon land of George Powell. Granted to his father 4 July 1641, deserted & now renewed for trans. of 6 pers: Wm. Marriott, Georg Duell, Wm. Roberts, Joane Hill, Thomas Jarrell, Abigall Adcockes, Martin Johnson, Margery Longnan

I see Alice Gwaltney profile is still locked for relationships.
I have her parents as Robert Flake II 1660-1722 and Margaret Marriott 1667-1722.

Historical Southern Families. Volume II
Gwaltney of Surry and Isle of Wight
Says William "marrried Alice Flake, daughter of Robert Flake and his wife Margaret Marriott, granddaughter of Captain Thomas Warren"

I will post the screenshots to Alice's profile. Were you able to look at the others that I added and mentioned in this thread Erica Howton?

In most cases I'd expect the child to live with the mother too. But to quote https://www.houseofproctor.org/genealogy/getperson.php?personID=I26... once again:

"On 7 July 1674 a portion of the estate was awarded to John Bishop. He was evidently the son of William Marriott's widow (formerly the widow of John Bishop Sr.) per an Orphans Court judgment (which no longer exists). George Proctor was again ordered to pay out of the estate to John Bishop in 1677."

I haven't seen the original court language so maybe I'm reading too much into this. But it sounds like John Junior is having to resort to lawsuits and court orders in order to collect his inheritance, so there might have been some bad blood between him and his latest stepfather who also happened to be the estate administrator. So John might have actually wanted to live with someone else, and they might have been happy to let him do it so they could have a more peaceful life.

It was probably John's guardian Francis Mason who was taking care of the legal issues, not John himself. But it seems unlikely that George Proctor was asking the court to order him to make payments, unless he was really uncertain about whether it was OK to do it and wanted a court order so none of the other heirs could complain.

Cynthia Curtis, A183502, US7875087 I am incredibly backed up, I’m sorry. And focusing on sorting out these relationships at the tree top.

Yes, understood. I just wanted to help and to add what I could for the moment. Is my direct line several ways.

There is definitely something “to” the second court order in 1677. HOP makes a point that Proctor was a wealthy man in his own right and that Marriott’s Estate was a mess that Proctor in fact straightened out. And I find it interesting that Francis Mason (whose own holdings may not have been shabby) was evidently John Bishop Jr’s heir rather than his mother or probable Marriott half (conceivably step) siblings in his generation. In similar scenarios I would have expected Mary (Marriott) Thompson to have ended up with the Bishop 300 acres. AND Francis Mason’s wife & son in law had evidently taken in two children.

I’m glad you brought it up. Will get there. For instance the Mason tree was in pieces ! Also, this kind of (slower) exploration helps me learn about collateral families and associations; I try to create a mental landscape of their lives & times.

Ah, several points I missed making.

1. I was thinking that the 1677 payout to John Bishop Jr was his coming of age & into his inheritance; would a court order be triggered automatically?

2. Governor of Virginia appointed or confirmed Mason guardianship of Bishop Jr in 1676, but it was made in 1672 (triggered by widow Marriott’s Proctor Marriage? Why not a guardian at her Marriott Marriage?). So what was this event?

3. Re: “On 7 November 1673 an accounting shows payments to William ATKINSON in right of his wife and Mr. SALWAY in as marrying Elizabeth PECK. These women were apparently legatees of the will, but not daughters of William MARRIOTT. ”. There’s a Salway in the Mason tree, I think.

4. This one’s for Cynthia - what do you make of the property at Swan Bay? “(Bishop) Land patterned [SIC: patented] 9 Apr 1651 300 acres on the southside of Upperchipoakes Creek known as Swan Bay in Surrey Co. .” ?

Make that the Thompson tree:)

Elizabeth Thompson

5. John Thompson, born Abt. 1661; died January 1698/99 in England. He married Elizabeth Salway.

William Thompson [John’s father] sold to John Salway 1 Aug 1673 property described as being near "the church at the head of Gray's Creek." Surry Co., Deeds and Wills 1671-684, p 29.

Notes for John Thompson:

John's will names his brothers and sisters in 1698.

From Book 5, p 185 in Surry Co., Leg. to brother, Samuel Thompson, 50 pounds. after decease of my wife, 50 lbs. more. To wife the labor of certain slaves for life. Brother, William Thompson. Sisters, Catherine and Elizabeth, negroes. (Brother Samuel, not living in Surry Co., ) Desires that Samuel Alsobrooke, son of Samuel Alsobrooke, deceased, be religiously brought up b Exeerx. Friends, Maj Arthur Allen and Capt. Francis Clements, each a ring. To two brothers-in=law, Mr. Robert Paine and Mr. Robert Catlett, each a ring. To wife, certain things given to her by will of Mr. John Salway, deceased. Wife, Elizabeth Thompson, is made Exerx. Made 2 Aug 1698. Prob.: 7 Nov 1699, presented at Court at Southwarke. Wit: Geo Williams, Jos,Case, Eliza. Prier, Mary Allen, Wm Foreman, Richard Holleman.

He made his will prior to his voyage to England. BUT there seems to be evidence that he made a second will after arriving in England in which he gave his brother William Thompson 100 pounds, sterling, when 21.

Boddie says that he served as Burgess from Surry in 1692-95-96.

Source: http://www.ncgenweb.us/ncwarren/fam-hist/families/thompson-wm.htm

I don't know if courts then worked the same way as they do now, but I get the impression that in general they did. It's all based on the precedent of older English law. My understanding of estate law is that court orders aren't usually involved. The administrator just disburses the assets in accordance with the will, or with what the law calls for if there isn't a will. They might be required to submit an accounting to the court at the end of the process showing that they did what they were supposed to do, but otherwise the courts wouldn't be involved unless someone filed a complaint.

It's an interesting little drama. Was Proctor scheming to keep as much as possible in the hands of the Widow Marriott who was now his wife, or to keep money away from someone he didn't like? Was Mason scheming to get his hands on orphans and their assets? Or did everyone have good intentions, and it was just a messy situation where court intervention was necessary to sort things out? We'll never know, but it's fun to think about it.

And we solved some genealogy by digging in !

In modern times at least, I wouldn't expect an estate to be kept open for years and years waiting for minor children or other delayed recipients to reach the point where they could claim their inheritance. Instead, their money would be placed in a trust that would release the funds at the appropriate time, so the estate administrator could go ahead and close the estate. A trustee would be appointed to manage the trust and pay the funds out when it was time.

In modern times, most estates are closed within two years so it's interesting that this one dragged on for at least five years. Also in modern times, there isn't close court supervision of trusts, but if they have any income they have to report it to the IRS every year. Heirs and beneficiaries are informed of their rights early on, and after that it's more or less on them to complain if they're not getting what's due to them.

In case you're wondering, I'm a tax preparer. I don't see the court side of estates and trusts and don't really know what happens there. But I do see the tax reporting side of it, and I get the impression that there's very little court intervention. Nowadays most people live long enough for their children to come of age, and the ones that don't either weren't expecting to die so soon or they don't have enough assets to need a big fancy will with all these bells and whistles. I mostly see estates where a trust is created on the death of the first spouse, and the surviving spouse can take money out of it during their lifetime. When the second spouse dies the remaining assets are distributed to their children and any other heirs.

But there are no court orders involved. If the trust has been set up so it's required to pay the trust income to the beneficiary every year, the trustee actually gets their instructions from us. We're the ones who compute the trust income, so we know how much they're supposed to distribute. We tell them how much to pay and they do it.

I would think the principles are much the same, just less computerized. :)

Let’s see what Bob Baird has on some of this:

https://genfiles.com/articles/orphans-guardians/

The guardian’s responsibility was focused on the property of the orphan than on the orphan himself. Since orphans were the natural heirs to a father’s personal estate and (potentially) to his land, the primary purpose of a guardian was to provide for management of the orphan’s estate, and to use that estate for his maintenance and education. If the father died intestate, his orphans inherited his personal property in equal shares (less the widow’s third) and the eldest son (or the daughters equally if no sons) inherited his land. If the father died testate, his orphans inherited real and personal property as specified by the will, with any unspecified property distributed according to the succession law. Unless some other provision was made in the will, the widow had only a lifetime interest in land, not a title, and a one-third interest in the personal property. The orphans, however young, were immediately titled in their inherited land and in their share of personal property. [oh good, I understood this sentence correctly.]

All colonies had some form of Orphans Court, whose responsibilities were to supervise the guardian’s management of orphan’s estates, oversee the rental or management of orphan-owned real estate, appoint or remove guardians, and oversee apprenticeships.

The Guardian’s Role in the Orphan’s Estate

The guardian’s primary role was management and preservation of the inherited property until the child reached majority and could manage it themselves. The Virginia statute of 1643 put it succinctly: “…guardians and overseers of all orphants shall carefully keep and preserve such estates as shall be comitted to their trust either by order of court or otherwise…” 3

At the child’s majority, the guardian was obligated to hand over the estate and obtain a release from the child as well as a release from his own bond. Household goods and similar personal property were to be delivered intact or at their value in money as determined by the appraisal of the estate. Livestock was to be delivered ‘in kind” – that is, not necessarily the same animals but in animals of the same number and condition.4 Slaves were treated as a special case, being delivered either in kind or in value, at the judgment of the guardian and with the court’s approval.5 Courts required the guardian to post a bond for their performance of this obligation, in an amount at least equal to the value of the estate (for the justices themselves were personally liable to the orphan if the bond proved insufficient.) That is why only wealthy men accepted guardianships of wealthy orphans. Guardians were required to provide an annual accounting of the estate’s income and expenses, and could be replaced by the court if found derelict.

It should be noted that guardians could be at considerable financial risk, for they were personally liable for loss of the child’s property. (That was the purpose of the guardian bond.)

If the orphan owned land, the guardian was obligated not only to preserve its value, but also to employ it to the orphan’s benefit. The guardian might employ a tenant or rent it out, though the term could not extend beyond the majority of the orphan. The guardian could sell the child’s property if he could convince the court that it was in the child’s best interest. Guardians also represented the orphan in legal matters, including debt suits.

Guardians were also responsible for arranging for and financing the education of the orphan. The same 1643 statute, which remained essentially unchanged for two centuries, required the guardian “to educate and instruct them according to their best endeavors in Christian religion and in rudiments of learning and to provide for them necessaries according to the competence of their estates…” As a practical matter, this meant using the profits of the estate to pay for the child’s maintenance and education. The guardian, being obligated to eventually deliver the entire estate, could use only its increase for this purpose and not the principal except by dispensation of the county court. Since the products of livestock (such as milk or wool) and their increase, along with rentals of land or slaves, typically provided the means, the child’s living conditions and education were largely dependent on the size and composition of his estate.

Rights of Orphans

It should be pointed out that orphans retained the same rights as other minors. For instance, a male could make a will disposing of his personal estate at 14, and a female at 12. (Real property could not be devised until they reached majority, thus the land of a deceased orphan fell to his or her heir under the common law unless otherwise provided for in the father’s will.) When the child reached the age of 14, they had the right to change or choose their own guardian. At 14 they also had the right to apprentice themselves.

——
If a child had no court-appointed guardian, their mothers acted in the role for other purposes, such as giving consent for marriage.

Preferences in Guardian Appointments

Some children had their guardians determined by their father before his death. A father could appoint a guardian for his minor children in his will, although it is relatively unusual to find a will that explicitly does so. (A will could also eliminate the need for a guardian by declaring a minor child to be “free”, an even rarer occurrence.) On the other hand, many wills make the implicit assumption that the mother would act as the guardian by leaving a life estate to the widow, with possession to the child at majority. In effect, this made the mother the guardian by eliminating, or at least reducing, the need for a separate financial overseer of the child’s interest. The courts in Virginia clearly preferred this arrangement, for it was very rare for a mother to be called to give an accounting of a child’s estate.

The remarriage of the mother changed things, because coverture limited the mother’s legal ability to protect property. Virginia courts considered that remarried mothers were unable to protect their children’s property from stepfathers, and usually stepped in to appoint a replacement guardian when the orphans had property at risk. Courts almost never appointed the stepfather for fear that the obvious conflict of interest made them untrustworthy property managers. Courts tended to appoint neighbors (who could keep an eye on the property) or relatives who had no interest themselves in the child’s property. Of course, the person chosen also had to be willing and able to post the bond and assume the financial responsibility.

——

You know, one of my questions was why the late guardianship of John Bishop Jr - wouldn’t it have been triggered by her Marriott marriage? But it seems triggered by her Proctor marriage. Unless we’re missing an Orphan’s Court record for Marriott in the 1660s.

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