Dale C. Rice Maternal links to English Power Familieshttps://www.geni.com/path/Dale-C-Rice+is+related+to+Ralph-Neville-1st-Earl-of-Westmorland?from=6000000013463839522&path_type=blood&to=6000000001069437500

https://www.geni.com/path/Dale-C-Rice+is+related+to+Edmund-Rice?fro...

Dale C. Rice Is there a question about this Edmund Price, of North Crawley ?

I'm just assuming Dale's connection to John Rice, of Dedham is correct, although I haven't personally checked it. But I do not that there were scores of Rices listed in the 1790 heads of household Censuses.

One Charles Rice was the Overseer on some property belonging to Peyton Randolph, according to the VA 1790 census, p171 of the Index.

https://www2.census.gov/library/publications/decennial/1790/heads_o...?#

Also, on the Lewys Dwnn pedigree of the Rices of Dynevor, Henry Rice had a nephew by the name of Edmont (Edmund), through his sister Jan (Jane) and her second husband, Dr. John Williams (married 1613, but Edmont was the second child).

https://ia800200.us.archive.org/25/items/heraldicvisitati_01dwnn/he...

"But I do [know] that there were scores of Rices listed in the 1790 heads of household Censuses."

(Not, "not") Sorry, it's early and I should have some coffee first.

Debra: Edmund would have been a Williams, not a Rice.

And since Dale's direct line doesn't trace back to Virginia, there's not a lot of point in looking at Virginia (and some point in *not* doing so, as it minimizes the opportunities for irrelevant distractions).

We have enough evidence from Massachusetts (Deacon Edmund Rice, John Rice of Dedham, Richard Rice) that there were multiple Rice immigrants and they were not closely related.

The children of Edmund Rice my 7th cousin descended from Joan Otter. The name of Otter Lake on the James River was named for this family after Perrot ap Rice my 7th ggfther arrived there in 1639 with a native woman (unknown but likely Necketie of 1/2 sister Cleopatra/Pocohauntus) and set up trade on the James river near the first set of Rapids by cousin John Rice Ancient Planter 1621 and wife mary claimed 100 acres there.

You may think it a distraction but the DNA evidence of Thomas Price of Liether who recived his 50 lb inheritence from his mother early, ie before she died Thomas arrived in 1652 to help out his father Perrot ap Rice using the name of his brother John Rice Hughes the Cavalier in King Charles I Army. He was trying very hard not to be seen by 5th cousins Oliver Cromwells Army who's goods were stolen and sold in the Colony, paid for by the insurance company who had to deliver the goods to the Army. Samuel Lort and His Brother were Purveyors of Military Goods to the Republican Army and Perrot's sister Lettice was married to Samuel Lort....Thus the linkage between the Otter Family my 7th great grandfather using the name John Rice Hughes is established by my exact DNA showing up in the son of Necketie in Jesse (rice-Hughes).
As you continue to minimize the extra ordinary story of the SCOUNDREL and three timing ancestor Perrot ap Rice who turned over a new leaf in Virginia by becoming a Quaker and writing pamphlets from Bedlam Prison until Spurng by the Court of Charles II in 1660 ca. You only entrench my DNA proof of this man and his sons on both sides of the Atlantic Ms. Helms. Take them on one at a time If you like....But lets go back to Edmund Rice that I proved to you was from Willima ap Rice and Elizabeth Lattimer as I said 5 year ago and is now part of the Geni master Tree. DCR

I misspoke when I said I PROVED: I should have given the credit to Erica Howton. I merely noted the existece of a conflicted story 5 years ago. DCR

Ms. Erica: Regarding Edmund Rice. As a distant cousin as shown neverthe less his line of children leads directly to the Henry Rice and Thomas Henry Rice of brothers born 1554 and 1557 who married Mary Baker in sequence. The children of Edumnd are not listed on the file even though the there is a great reference in blue on the file which names them. I contend that every linkage to William ap Rice 1522 cousin of John Rice Ancient Planter 1621 of James River 100 acres and the ancestor Joan Bray-Otter is part of the linkage of my father's telling the story of of How a Hughes in Service to the Rice heir at Carew Castle drawn and Quartered by King Henry VIII is recounted in the name of Otter Lake near the trading post above the First Rapids on the James River. For now could we please get the linkage to Thomas Henry and Henry Thomas Rice brothers sons of Edumnd it seems.

Dale: Please STOP making unproven, unprovable, BOGUS assertions if you are the least bit serious about wanting ANYBODY here to assist you.

Stop claiming relationship to Deacon Edmund Rice. No one believes any longer that John Rice of Dedham was *any* kind of relative to him.

Stop the nonsense about Otter Lake - it was named for these little furry critters https://www.britannica.com/animal/otter and NOT for any human family. It was NOT the site of any trading post until after 1700. It had NOTHING WHATSOEVER to do with Henricus or Varina - WHICH YOU ARE CONSTANTLY TRYING TO MASH IT UP WITH, AND STOP THAT TOO!

Stop spouting the fantasy that Perrot ap Rice "faked his death", "changed his name", and "went native" in Virginia under an alias. You can't prove it, because it never happened.

Stop referring to the FICTIONAL, NEVER EXISTED, UTTERLY DISPROVEN "John Rice Hughes". (You have been told this OVER AND OVER AND OVER AGAIN and you DENY and DEFY the actual historical evidence.)

If you continue to present moonbeams and cloud castles as actual historical research, if you continue to claim that You And Only You have the Real Story and Everyone Else is WRONG, you are going to find yourself talking to yourself, because nobody else wants to hear it any longer.

To everyone else: I'm particularly galled about Dale's grotesque abuse and misuse of Virginia geography, because *I live in Virginia*. I KNOW where the Blue Ridge Mountains are (I live beyond 'em), and where the Tidewater is (way the heck east of here), and where the fall line is, and all that geographical stuff he doesn't seem to have clue one about.

To everyone else: That fairy tale about Perrot ap Rice "becoming" John Perrot the Quaker was exploded here a long time ago. They were two completely different men. Different origins, different wives, different children, different destinies, different *everything*.

To everyone else: Finding *an* Edmund Rice is not the same thing as finding Deacon Edmund Rice. The Edmund Rice Association has the Deacon clearly localized to Suffolk - NOT Wales, not anywhere else in England - and in any case, since Dale is *not* a direct descendant of Deacon Edmund Rice, it is utterly beside the point.

"Thomas Henry" and "Henry Thomas" Rice is more moonbeams and cloud castles. That's a ***19th*** century naming pattern, not 17th. There would be a "Henry" and a "Thomas", and NO MIDDLE NAMES.

For Debra and others about John Rice of Dedham b abt 1624 probably in East Anglia. Got married in Dedham Massachusetts in 1649 - a small & very Puritan community.

We had a group effort tracing every step from 1624 to 1948. It’s pretty well documented on Geni. The migration pattern is a classic one for Puritan Origins, almost a text book example.

From Dedham, this Rice family went to Connecticut; then the Catskills in New York (this was Dale’s first knowledge at the time); then on as Nebraska pioneers. Of course they inter married with other Great Puritan Migration families, giving Dale the vast network he has.

There is “not” Southern USA in this Rice line, none at all, which again, fits the pattern.

I don’t doubt that like many of us, Dale has connections in southern USA and then back to France, Germany, Ireland, Scotland and Wales. But I think that’s his mother’s side, and the tree is less well developed.

My Massachusetts Rice line, which is not the same as Dale’s, followed a similar-enough pattern. The line daughtered out in Connecticut, but if you follow the daughter families, mine stayed put in CT & MA until the Civil War. That was my families particular disruptor, I believe: and it’s that generation that headed West, by train to Oregon, and there marrying into families rooted in Virginia.

The children of Edmond ap Rhese and Mary Tiringham are mentioned in two places so far.

Daughter Priscilla in the will of Dame Skipwith of Cotes.

For those of us with Virginia origins, she is called “aunt of the world.” I have in fact worked with this Will a bit before.

See this page: https://books.google.com/books?id=6tQRAAAAYAAJ&dq=Will%20of%20D...

The ap Rhese Visitation mentions two sons:

https://books.google.ca/books?id=aRQpAAAAYAAJ&lpg=PA31&dq=c...

What Dale is referring to is this extremely garbled profile.

Henry (or Thomas) Rice

Please read the notes in detail to understand it.

They are not brothers as far as I know. What this seems to be is an old computer generated marriage record only half transcribed correctly.

Dale sees it on old personal trees as an ancestor of Edmund (not John) Rice the Colonist.

Some other personal trees have it for the Y DNA proven unrelated Robert Royce of Connecticut.

Neither of these trees have anything to do with Wales.

No children have worked out for this couple. And no children to America known.

If someone can find “the original marriage record”, if there is such a thing, that the profile seems based on, that might help Dale.

Erica: Strictly speaking, the Apreese visitation calls Edmund the second son (2 sonne), indicates that he has at least one descendant,but doesn't bother with him any further. The descendants of Robert and Joane take over the next page.

Lewis and John are noted as 3rd (3 sonne) and 4th (4 sonne) sons respectively (John married someone named Elena, Ellen, or Helen).

---------------------------------------------------------

Dame Skipwith's will indicates that Edmund Apreece had at least three children, but only Priscilla is specifically identified (and stinted with 40 shillings rather than the 5 pounds for the others).

So we’re thinking the three children - the 2 sons of the Visitation and daughter Priscilla. I don’t see anything for property so far and the wife Mary is also seen as Feringham, not Tiringham.

His brother was a famous recusant and his descent seems well tracked:

https://www.flickr.com/photos/52219527@N00/43350659792

As far as ancestry goes, I'm a weird one: paternal side almost all Northampton/Accomack Counties, Virginia and Anne Arundel County Maryland, with a splash of Baltimore County German; maternal side 50% Calitri, Avellino, Italy and 50% mostly-Irish (with a huge brick wall due to a "John Smith" - aargh!).

The only *possible* connection back to New England would be the Staten Island Usteds - and they're brick-walled too.

No, Erica, the Visitation does*not* say that Edmund had two sons. It said that he was the *second son*. Compare his brothers Lewis and John.

Edmund might have had two sons, one son, three or more, or none for all we really know.

Right, the next brother is listed as “3rd sonne”

Found Priscilla “one of the daughters of”

https://hdl.huntington.org/digital/collection/p15150coll7/id/27244/

Priscilla Aprice Is it: end of records. She got a windmill at Wollaston in Northamptonshire in 1615, so presumably that’s where her father Edmund was seated. I think there were no sons because property. Other daughters implied by Lady Skipwith’s 1629 will and by the 1614 property conveyance but names unknown.

I'm sure Elena was actually the sister of Lewis ap Rhese (3rd son). and John Price (4th son). "Elena, nupta." -- in this case meaning this daughter, Elena, was a married woman.

And while I'm here: I noticed early on that Dale is evidently related to different Rice families through both his maternal and paternal line. Needless to say, sorting out all the Rices is a daunting task for anyone.

I recall several months ago running across an American Rice hiding out in some dim corner of my own family tree, and thinking, "Huh?!" :D

Notice on the pedigree chart there are three lines above the names of Elena and brothers Lewis and John.

I found Edmond’s wife. She’s called Katherine Tiringham in Visitations

https://archive.org/details/visitationofcoun5859byuphil/page/121

But she conveyed property as “Mary.”

—-

I’m sure we’re all multi Rice’s, it’s a common enough Anglo Saxon name. Luckily Dale’s line is well defined in America, it’s his English Origins he seeks verification of.

I think you may be right, Debra, but the way everything's crammed together at the bottom of the page it can be hard to tell. Wish they'd had room to say *whom* she married.

Erica: Looks like nobody signed off on that page, which means the Bucks investigators were probably working secondhand from old documents etc. Wonder if maybe they got the wrong daughter (if there was more than one).

(The Apreece pedigree *was* signed off on, by "Robart Aprece".)

Don't think I've located a Rice yet (not in *my* tree, anyway).

No direct Rice/Price connection in Arthur's either, which I suppose means that none of the Rice/Price crowd were Seventh Day Baptists (his Rosses were in tight with that crowd).

The main trouble with Dale seems to be that he is seeking "verification" of a glittering web of fables, and not at all interested in looking for the hard truths.

Rephrase: Arthur's Rosses were in tight with the Seventh Day Baptists. They went west along the Northern Tier, typical New England pattern. Then his specific branch did a U-turn and came all the way back to Boston....