Eme Osborne (unknown) - Eme Osborne

Do you have a primary source for parentage?

Is she supposed to have been a child of Henry Bourchier, 1st Earl of Essex?

For a start, no “Eme” or any daughter who married an Osborn listed at

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Henry_Bourchier,_1st_Earl_of_Essex

According to https://www.findagrave.com/memorial/67369859/isabel-bourchier, his only wife, Isabel Plantagenet, had sevens sons and one daughter: EIsabel, who died young.

6. Weir states that there were three additional children, Laura Bourchier (b.1440), who married John Courtenay, 7th Earl of Devon; Florence Bourchier (d. 1525); and Hugh Bourchier, died young.

https://www.1820settlers.com/documents/Bowker_Bourchier/data/fam205...

Henry de Bourchier b. 1406-1483 and Isabel of York Countess Essex 1409-1484.

At one time I charted this, but presently I have a ton of research on the table and I would have to dig out the chart to show how it goes back to Edward III King of England.

Isabel of Cambridge & her husband Henry Bourchier, 1st Earl of Essex were both great-grandchildren of Edward III of England.

The problem is they are not known to have had a daughter who married an Osborn.

https://www.geni.com/merge/view?revision_id=73448173930 Anne Brannen Is this right? Note above is that Isabel Bourchier died young.

1. Eme Essex- her name of Essex is a title. Her actual last name was Bourchier. Descends from Edward III and Philippa of Hanault. They had a son Edmund 1st Duke of York who married Isabella of Castile. Their Daughter Isabel of Cambridge d. 1484 married Henry Bourchier. All of Henry's and Isabel's children were not documented on the Pedigree chart . Chart not up dated. Lady Eme de Essex Bourchier married Sir Peter Osborne. My chart are going into storage because I am about to move into a new home, so I will not pull them out again until after I move.

Then where are they documented? This shouldn’t be a secret only you have, and Earls don’t lose track of their children.

Here’s another suggested origin for Eme:

(Lady) Eme Essex (1444 - 1500)

Born in Essex in 1444, possibly the daughter of Baron John de Bourchier (1415 - 1474), 1st Baron Berners, M.P. and Margery Berners (1418 - 1475). Died in Purleigh, Essex in 1500

http://www.martintree.co.uk/osborne.htm

That’s worth looking into.

I have found Eme of Essex listed as #11 of 16 children of Henry Bourchier, in the LDS Family Search site, along with all their dates of birth. Another source that I ran cross just yesterday, which I will go back to today, lists them as having "at least 11 children," not the usual 7 or 8 that I usually find.

Beverly Brown Osborn Be sure and share the URL and examine for underlying source info, and determine, if you can, if it’s record based (IGI filmed microfilm) or submitted pedigree by a member of the LDS Church. The latter of course is not a provable record, but does indicate who thinks she’s an ancestor (which American) and where the pedigree originated.

I did a chart on Lady Eme a while back that I will have to dig out of my genealogy. I know that Henry's father is William Bourchier. The descent is from Edward III. Either a 1st or 2nd great grand daughter. The Bourchier Coat of Arms has an engrailed cross on the top left and the bottom right of the COast of Arms with 4 water buckets with one on each side of the cross.

Hi, Erica Howton -- sorry, I hadn't seen this earlier.

I can't find anything that takes this Osborn line up past Peter who shows up in Essex in 1442; I am not seeing any mention of his wife.

Nor am I finding anything that gives Emme as a daughter of Henry Bourchier and Isabel of Cambridge, or any daughter that married an Osborn, and I find this very bothersome, given that this family had children that married into the Woodvilles, the de Scales, etc -- the Osborns were not as high faluting as the other families on the marriage list, but of course the Woodvilles had married up -- nevertheless, that information should be showing up in places other than family web trees.

The merge that I made that you undid, Erica, was simply a matter of cleaning up -- I wasn't checking lines and sources, and there were congruences.

They definitely needed to be unmerged.

Anne Brannen,, what type of research are you doing? Just on Geni? Or on Visitations? Census? Bishop's Visitations? Parish Records? Go past Peter Osborne to Sir Marion Osborne/Osbyrne. Check the Kent Visitations by KAS. There is a HUGE CHART in their genealogy. But it begins with William of Cambridge. on the listing within a few pages of that chart is I believe 404. Which is Marion Osborne/Osbyrne This is the line that Erica descends from!

Oh, lovely! Excellent.

Definitely we need that information,

Looking forward to seeing that!

Very weird, though — this isn’t a place I would expect people to fall through the cracks.

Ok! Rabbit hole from hunger.

Which Kent Visitation from the KAS?

No Peter Osborne here— https://www.kentarchaeology.org.uk/Research/Pub/ArchCant/005-1863/0...

And though I could find one other Osborne chart in one of the visitations, it was smaller and later.

So, no joy yet.

Page 4 of the Kent Visitation is the Hartlip line, which is mentioned here among other places:

http://osborne.house/tdprofile.asp?ref=304038

“ ... The last male was Thomas who died in 1719 aged 30 years and without children. With no male heir the armorial was claimed by the separate lineage of the Newtimber Osbornes in 1724. On the death of Mary Osborne of Hartlip in 1780 the Hartlip Osborne lineage finally became extinct.”

But Peter was of Chicksands:

“Of uncertain Osborne lineage - elsewhere there is a further line of Osborns based at Chicksands Priory in Bedfordshire from which Dorothy Osborne who married Sir William Temple descended. She frequented Epsom Spa as is recorded in her letters. There are Osborn(e)s elsewhere, including Ireland. ...”

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dorothy_Osborne

Dorothy Temple

Peter Osborn, of Purleigh is Dorothy (Osborne) Temple's fourth great grandfather.
https://www.geni.com/path/Dorothy-Temple+is+related+to+Peter-Osborn...

So we have the Geni tree correct in this area, it seems.

Still no Emme of Essex.

Sir Peter Osborne & Lady Eme Essex Bourchier
|
Richard Osborne & Ann Cawston
|
Peter Osborne & Ann Blythe
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Sir John Osborne & Dorothy Barlee
|
Peter Osborne & Dorothy Danvers
Lt. Governor of Guernsey
|
_____|________________________________________________
| |
Sir John Osborne 1615-1699 Lady Dorothy Osborne
bought Chicksands Sir William Temple
Drops the "e" from the name Famous Love letters

My posting shifted because I left the spaces in there. Lady Dorothy Osborn is the sister of Sir John Osborn b. 1615-1699. One of her pursuers was Thomas Osborne, 1st Duke of Leeds, and 2nd Baronet of Kiveton. But she rejected him because she was interested in Sir William Temple.

TO ANNE BRANNEN: Sometimes you must reach down the Rabbit hole and grab the rabbit by his ears and pull him out! lol

https://www.kentarchaeology.org.uk/Research/Pub/ArchCant/005-1863/0...

IF you look at the chart which is across from page 227 You have Willielmus Osborne, de Hartlip. wife Alicia , Will dated 23 Sept. 1464.(beneath that) [Qu. William Oseburn, M.P. for Canterbury, 25 Hen. V., 1438?]

Now go to the page 231 - where it reads 404 Marion Osbyrne his wife is Julian Marion. THIS IS THE BEGINNING OF OUR LINE.

Marion's son is Sir Thomas Osbyrne b. @ 1370 his son is Sir William Osborne of Canterbury who had a son Sir John b. @ 1400 who had a son Sir Peter Osborn of Tyld(en) Hall that married Lady Eme Essex who had a son Sir John Richard of Ashford, Kent England who married Lady Wilhelmina, they had Richard Osborne I b. 1488 that married Elizabeth Flydene (last name subject to be changed due to the people that read the last name misinterpreted the hand writing!) this son is Richard Osborne II b. 1510 m. to Jane Broughton 1510-1570 she is the mother of Sir Edward Osborne, Julian , and Sir Thomas Richard Osborn 1541/2 m. Wilmeth Mellis/Mellows.

Now back up to the first line of that chart Right under WIlielmus Osbourne, de Hartlip. this is the key to the information. (Qu. William Oseburn, M.P. for Canterbury, 25 Hen. V., 1438? Marion's father is William Oseburn, a member of Parliment for Canterbury. As you know it is during the rein of Henry the 5th dated the 25th possibly 1438. So now we must go to Wikipedia and look up the rein of Henry the 5th, to see if this date fits.

Not that this matters to the above issue, but I thought I would bring it up for your interests. I had copies of the chart enlarged to the size 12" by 16". In the 4th generation down - Johannes Osborne, de Hartlip is granted the Coat of Arms in 1573. But that coat of Arms was regranted again around the 1700's. The proper way to grant the Coat of Arms is to the OLDEST SON of the family. Instead in the 1700's it was granted to his younger brother. Which is questionable!

To the right side of the chart , 4th generation down -Stephanus Osborne , de Nutts, in Shepey will present a problem. The Visitations of Hampshire I believe disagrees with how he ties into the next couple of generations.

KAS stands for KENT ARCHAEOLOGY SOCIETY.

Excellent!

Erica Howton -- there's the link and all.

If one is meant to go down rabbit holes, it's a lovely thing to know which field one is supposed to be in.

The KAS index -- not a wonderful thing.

But!

Lovely that the stuff's in there.

Well, it needs interpretation. :). Because I’m still reading Peter Osborn and his unknown wife as top of the pedigree.

SIT UP AND PAY ATTENTION! It doesn't get better than this!

https://www.geni.com/documents/view?doc_id=6000000016566514076

William Bourchier 1st Count of Eu Married Ann of Glouchier
|
Henry Bourchier Earl of Esssex, 1404 m. Isabell of York PLANTAGENET
|
Lady Eme De Essex Bourchier 1444 m. Sir Peter Osborne b. 1444?/1442 Tyld Hall

Henry Bourchier is a grandson of Edward III.
Isabell Plantagenet is Henry's wife and she is a second great grandchild of Edward III.

THIS IS also her line (being double relate to Edward III.

Edward III
|
Edmund Langley 1st Duke of York m. Isabell of Castile
|
Richard of Coinsburn 3rd Earl of Cambridge m. Ann Mortimer Countess of Cambridge
|
Isabell of York Plantagenet b. 1411 m. Henry Bourchier.

The Plantagenet are Royal. The Bourchier and the Plantagenet both descend from Edward III. and Eme de Essex Bourchier-Osborne the wife of Sir Peter Osborne of Tyld Hall, Latchingdom, Essex, England is her husband!

How much more interpretation do you need, pull your head out of the Rabbit hole!

BY THE WAY- KAS is the Kent Archeological Society. That very important line on that hole chart is right UNDER WILIELMUS OSBORNE, de Hartlip. [*QU. William Oseburn, M.P. for Canterbury, 25 Hen. V. 1438?] Erica you descend from William of Canterbery!!! I had sent you the link in the past. So go to the link and find page 631, you descend from 404 Marion Osbyrn. Also check the other 404 under it, Julian Marion his wife!

Emme is not on the page that you linked to after the yelling part.

Henry Bourchier and Isabella Plantagenet are, but there is one child connected and it isn’t Emme.

Lol.

I didn’t actually look at the link that Kay posted whilst explaining to me that I needed to go further down rabbit holes, but Erica Howton you are right, the information we are looking for isn’t there. And I had seen those pages, following down the KAS links.

I assumed that they were new pages, and was in the middle of a giant let’s-move-the-budgies-into-different-cages project, and stopping in on the fly.

But yes.

I see those pages, and I don’t see Emme either. I had seen them earlier.

Kay Osborn I am absolutely willing to read all sorts of charts and Latin documents. But please don’t yell.

The documents you have linked to in your last two messages do show Osbornes and various connections. They don’t show Emme.

Anne, if you are who your profile says you are, that means that you read a lot! IF I use capital letters some times that means to me that I am emphasizing what I would like to make stick out- so you know that it is important! KAS is a word that is written in all capital letters.

What I sent to you is where the ties are. Both Lady Eme De Essex Bourchier parents have ties to Edward III. Both Bourchier and Plantagenet descend from Edward III.

The KAS- has two major people in their research that effects Erica research.
1. *Qu. William Oseburn, M.P. for Canterbury, 25 Hen. V.

2. Marion Osbyrn on page 631.

If you don't understand it, then you will never go beyond where you are now in the research!

Furthermore, you will also find that if you go to some of the people on the lists that is Lady Eme's ancestors, such as father, grandfather, grand mother the answers are already on GENI. So trace back and take a look.