Taubeh Klatsko - Request for Source

Likely but not surely it's the same person, as in 1795 Zelman, son of Chaim, and Sprintza are listed with their 16 y.o. dauhter, a widow, who died in 1799 according to the 1813 census. However, Kalman was already married in 1795 to Tauba (daughter of Zelman) who also died in 1798.

https://www.litvaksig.org/images/custom/GDL/All%20Vilnius%20distric... In 1784: household 577, family of Zelman Pokrojski.

Thanks Victor. Your logic based on these records seems perfectly reasonable.

While on this area, there is a confusion in my mind with regards to the parentage of R' Meshulam Zalman Zak (AB"D Pokroy) On GENI he is shown as R' Chaim 4.8 Za'k son of R' Sholom Za'k b. Yisrael the Martyr of Ruzhany, ABD Birzai and Zamosc while in Otser HaRabanim he is # 15720, son of # 5991 (Rabbi Chaim Zak) b. R' Tzvi Hirsh 4.3 Za'k b. R' Shimon 3.2 Za'k b. Yisrael the Martyr of Ruzhany, ABD Birzai and Zamosc The Otser Chaim is given three sons: 1) Ysroel # 11922, 2) Yitzach # 10650, and 3) the above Meshulam Zalmen. Is there any external evidence for one or the other of these constructions?

Adam, it's Mark Za'k Rowan who is the original manager, so he connected them this way. Their mother indeed was Elka who lived in Birziai in 1765 (LVIA_F11_ap1_b1024(3), p. 64, household 43) with her son R' Israel 5.12 Za'k so their father Chaim died by that time. Zelman Chaimowicz from the 1765 census from Vilna is reportedly the right one, as his other son is listed in the 1813 census as Vulf Zak. It seems that they all were registered in Vilnius.

The key might be Wife of R' Isaac Gunzburg Isaac Ginzburg seems to be my direct ancestor, as well as Rabbi Meshulam Zalman HaLevi Mirels, ABD Hamburg I don't think the daughter of Zalman Mirels was married 4 times, also she has 2 different mothers are in the tree. Was Sholom Zak Zalman Mirel's son-in-law? If Zalman Zak was named after his ancestor Zalman Mirels, the current version looks plausible (moreover, Asher Zak had a son Sholom Za"k possibly named after R' Sholom Za'k). There's another connection with Hamburg Chaim (Haim) ben Peretz Hamburg, HaCohen who lived in Vilnius and then in Pinsk, marrying Asher's 2nd wife.

Victor, Otser does have two spouses for Wife of R' Isaac Gunzburg #18148 (Zak) and #11141 (Gunzberg). I have no information on the other two spouses listed on GENI. So it does appear that the offspring of Sholom b. Ysroel Martyr would be descendants of Meshulam Zalmen Mirels, and it would be reasonable to theorize that one of Sholom's grandsons was named Meshulam Zalman.

However, it appears from Otser that Sholom b Ysroel Martyr has a son named Ysroel (#11921) and that there is another Ysroel (#11922) who is the brother of Meshulam Zalman b. Chaim. There may be some confusion as to these two Ysroel's on the GENI tree. Also, there are only two Chaim Zaks in Otser: Chaim #5591 b. Tsvi Hersh b. Shimon b. Ysroel Martyr (who is shown there as the father of Meshulam Zalmen and the two brothers), and Chaim #5992 who is from a different Zak branch much earlier (bc 1610). Therefore, the GENI construction requires the finding of some external evidence of a Chaim bca 1700 who is the son of Sholom b. Ysroel Martyr. Do you have any leads on the existence of Chaim b. Sholom b. Ysrael Martyr?

Regarding the Asher Zak, I have no data about the family of Meshulam Zalman and another spouse named Reyza, although I do have evidence of an Asher ben Meshulam Zelman of Vilna who was the 2nd spouse of Miryam b. Moshe Eisenstadt and who was probably born much earlier than Taubeh (perhaps 45 years earlier), which would imply an earlier spouse for Meshulam.

Adam, thank you very much! Can you please send the link to Otser HaRabanim? I am able to read genealogical information in Hebrew. Maybe I'll understand what's wrong here - my sources in this case are only the published tree (which always contain some mistakes) and revision lists. Is Rabbi Chaim Zak also recognized as rabbi in Birzai like R' Chaim 4.8 Za'k Mark Za'k Rowan has to be asked, probalby he has additional source.

I have the 1765 lists, Zalman Zak possibly lived in Vilnius (therefore I added Reyza and other children of whom I recognized Vulf Zak in 1795 and 1813. Zalman's oldest son Osher is presumably listed separately with his 1st wife Sora in 1765. In 1795 Osher's wife was already Mirka Mirka Ginzburg twice as young as Osher (60 / 32 in 1795) who moved with her 3rd husband Chaim, son of Perets and his daughter Hena from the 1st marriage to Pinsk in 1806.

Victor, thanks for the follow through. I used a copy of Otser HaRabanim from https://tablet.otzar.org/ during the Covid lockdown (I'm not sure what the terms of use are today). To facilitate the investigation, I have posted the relevant sections of Otser to the profiles on GENI.

Rabbi Chaim Zak only mentions that he was a dayan in Ruzhani (same as "A judge in Rozana..." mentioned by Mark Za'k Rowan).

Many of Mark Za'k Rowan's profiles have an identification number, such as 4.8, 3.2, etc. Do you know what source these numbers refer to? I also just noticed that R' Meshulam Zalman Zak (AB"D Pokroy) was not added by Mark Za'k Rowan and does not have one of these identification numbers, which could suggest another source and perhaps a reason for some confusion.

Thank you, Adam! Still I can't find the book without the direct link.
I suppose these numbers are derived from another book. Mark Rowan was active in June, probably it's better to ask him. There might be also a cousin marriage, so the 3 brothers might be descended from both Shimon and Sholom. But it looks like Chaim is the same one. Sometimes there are conflicting trees in various rabbinical books, therefore different versions appear here.

Victor, I am sorry not to have the direct link at my disposal. I tried to post the necessary information. If you require more from the book, and it could be a volume worth obtaining for someone who does a lot of genealogical research, it should not be too difficult to locate somewhere. I am not adept at Hebrew language online searching. Let me add that Otser is not well edited in the sense that the entry number references are often incorrect. For example on entry will say that the father is at # 12345 and when one goes to that number there is someone else there, but upon careful scrutiny one finds that the correct entry # is 12445. This makes using the material an often infuriating experience, in a book that contains over 20,000 entries..

Another source that may be worth looking into is the Ashekenasi-Sak [sic] and Zak materials prepared by Paul Jacobi as part of his 50 year investigation of Ashkenazi families. These have not been published and are only available from the National Library of Israel. These materials pose their own set of issues: they are mostly handwritten drafts in a usually legible but abbreviated English language script. This is best done by ordering digital copies of the pages and then magnifying them by several hundred percent on a screen. I can help with this if you decide it would be worth your time.

Perhaps in time there will be other researchers with more data about this curious situation.

Thanks Adam, I'll try to ask Mark Rowan and possibly find other versions of the tree as I am not sure enough what has to be changed.