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About Alpaida

Alpaida (b.794)

Daughter of Charlemagne's & his third known concubine Amaltrude. [] NOTE: It seems worth mentioning that this is the Wikipedia version Jan 2011, and Cawley's Medlands don't mention an Alpaida or an Amaltrude. A possible reason is that the Wikipedia concubine, Amaltrud is the NN concubine of Cawley, whose daughter - Ruodhaid/Rotaide (784) actually looks like the same person as the concubine Madelgard's daughter Rothildis, who Cawley gives as born in the same year (784), and which Wikipedia doesn't duplicate. [Sharon 2011]


This interesting discussion that Justin alerted me to suggests (amongst other things) that Himiltrude's Amaudra is also the Alpaida we have as Amaltrude's child. Posting it here and on Amaudra's profile, so I don't lose it forever [Sharon 2014]

Richard Borthwick 6/10/98

At 09:31 PM 7/05/98 GMT, you wrote:

In article <>, (Richard Borthwick) wrote:

Date: Thu, 07 May 1998 14:40:37 +0800
To: Richard Borthwick <>
From: Richard Borthwick <>
Subject: Re: deCOURTNEY
X-MIME-Autoconverted: from quoted-printable to 8bit by

id OAA08002

At 18:44 6/05/98 -0700, you wrote:

UTZ wrote:


In a message dated 5/5/98 5:56:23 PM Pacific Daylight Time,
EDL...@MAIL2.LCIA.COM writes:


     1       Emperor of the West Charlemagne 747 - 813/14    ref #:<br/>


             +Himiltrude     Abt. 742 -<br/>
     2       Aupais  Abt. 738 -      ref #: (=C4191-14)<br/>
             +Count Begue de Paris   Abt. 738 - 816  ref #: =C4191-14<br/>


Sorry to nit pick but how can this be so. We have both Aupais and her


b. before Charlemagne and his wife.

Hmm. They do it with mirrors; they make up for it by volume; the
check's in the mail . . .=20

Delete the birth dates for both - Weis doesn't list any. Delete also
Aupais' death date.

FWIW; AFAIK; IMHO; YMMV; yadda, yadda, yadda.

Regards, Ed Mann


=C4 =3D Weis, _Ancestral_Roots_, 7th ed.<br/>
AAP =3D Roberts, _Ancestors_of_American_Presidents_, [page] or=20<br/>
      [Pres. # : page].<br/>
BP1 =3D _Burke's_Presidential_Families_, 1st ed. [page].<br/>
BPci =3D _Burke's_Peerage_, 101st ed., [page].<br/>
BRF =3D Weir, _Britain's_Royal_Families_, [page].<br/>
BxP =3D _Burke's_Dormant_&_Extinct_Peerages_, [page].<br/>
EC1 =3D Redlich, _Emperor_Charlemagne's_Descendants_, Vol I, [page].=20<br/>
EC2 =3D Langston & Buck, _Emperor_Charlemagne's_Descendants_, Vol II,<br/>
EC3 =3D Buck & Beard, _Emperor_Charlemagne's_Descendants_, Vol II,=20<br/>
F =3D Faris, _Plantagenet_Ancestry_, [page:para].<br/>
S =3D Stuart, _Royalty_for_Commoners_, 2d ed.<br/>
W =3D Weis, _Magna_Charta_Sureties,_1215_, 4th ed.<br/><br/><br/>

Alpais ( d.after 852 wife of count Bego (
d.816) was the daughter of Louis the Pious (son of Charlemagne) by an
unknown mistress. As abbess of S.-Pierre-le-Bas at Rheims Alpais witnesses
as daughter of Louis the Pious [Sources: K F Werner "Nachkommen Karls des
Grossen" in Braunfels (ed) *Karl der Grosse: Lebenswerk und Nachleben* cf
Hlawitschka's critique of Werner's account in *Anfaenge de Hauses
Habsburg-Lothringen* pp.165-169.]. Below is a sketch of Hlawitschka's
reconstruction. The main difference from Werner's reconstruction is that
Hlawitschka has Susanna as the child of Bego by a first marriage and not by
Alpais. That Bego had such a marriage is highly likely since he was 45/50 by
the time of his marriage with Alpais. It is also certain that Susanna was
Bego's daughter. If Susanna had been the daughter of Alpais then the
marriage of Susanna's granddaughter, Adelheid, to Louis the Stammerer would
have been within the prohibited degrees (4:2 through Louis the Pious). The
broken horizontal line indicates highly probable siblinghood and the dotted
verticals indicate highly probable filiation. I hope the table holds up
under transmission (it is my first effort at such a table)!

  Louis the Pious # NN     Gerhard<br/>
                  |        oo Rotrud<br/>
                  |           :<br/>
                  |          _:_ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _<br/>
                Alpais (2)oo Bego oo(1) NN                  Leuthard oo<br/>
                           |       :                        Grimhild<br/>
                           |       :                             :    <br/>
     ______________________|  _____:_                            :<br/>
     Leuthard     Eberhard    Susanna oo Wulfhard I         Ingeltrude<br/>
                                             |              oo Odo<br/>
                                             |                   |<br/>
   __________________________________________|__________         |<br/>
   Wulfhard II   NN    Immo   Hildeburg Adalhard Vulgrin    Ermentrud<br/>
                  |                         |               oo Charles II=<br/>
                  |                         |               "the Bald"<br/>
                  |                         |                    |         =<br/>
                  |               __________|___________         |<br/>
               Vulgrin            Wulfhard III  Adelheid oo Louis II "the<br/>
   Moriarty, p. 23, comments:  "She [Alpais] is often called a natural<br/>

daughter of the Emperor Lewis the Pious but other authorities style her a
natural daughter of Charlemagne, which is undoubtedly, for chronological
reasons, correct."

   Settipani in "La prehistoire des Capetiens," p. 200, lists Alpais as<br/>

daughter if Charlemagne and Himiltrude. (See also Table 5 at the end of
the book.) He estimates Alpais was born ca 765-770; she died in 852,
after 23 Jul.

   On page 316, note 857, Settipani reviews the differences between<br/>

Werner and Hlawitschka, and concludes that Adelaide, wife of Louis II,
descends from Beggo and Alpais. I reconstruct the relationships as

Hildegarde = (3) Charlemagne (1) = Himiltrude

         |                     |<br/>
     Louis I                Alpais = Beggo<br/>
         |                         |<br/>
         |                ‹‹‹‹‹‹‹‹‹‹‹‹‹‹‹‹‹‹‹‹‹‹‹‹‹‹<br/>
           |                  |                         |<br/>
           |               Leuthard                  Susanna<br/>
           |                  |                         |<br/>
           |             Ingeltrude                     |<br/>
           |                  |                         |<br/>
      Charles II = = = = Ermentrud                  Adelhard<br/>
                    |                                   |<br/>
                Louis II = = = = = = = = = = = = =  Adelaide<br/>
   While there are differing numbers of generations in the lines, they<br/>

do not seem implausible. I have:

        Charlemagne (747-814)<br/>
        Louis I (778-840)<br/>
        Charles II (823-877)<br/>
        Louis II (846-879)  {3 generations in 99 years}<br/>
        Alpais (765/770-852)<br/>
        Ermentrud (830-869)  {3 generations in 60-65 years}<br/>
        Adelaide (855-aft 900)  {3 generations in 85-90 years}<br/>
   Note that I have Leuthard, who is listed as both a brother and as a<br/>

son of Beggo by Borthwick, as the same individual.

Alan B. Wilson

Just what C Settipani’s own reconstruction of the “Paris group” is not clear from his *La prehistoire...* p.316 note 857. He clearly disagrees with Werner and Hlawitschka et al. over the paternity of Alpais (pp.200-203). When I saw Alan’s reconstruction I thought Settipani was adopting some such scheme which identifies Leuthard son of Alpais with Leuthard count of Fezensac. In his paper on the Angevins in Keats-Rohan’s *Family Trees ...* on p.244 we get some clue about how CS thinks this group is structured. Leuthard was doing his thing as count of Fezensac in 801 and Settipani gives him a conjectural birth date of 765 and a known death date period i.e. after 811. in this scheme for Leuthard CS agrees with Werner et al. On p.244 Leuthard is given Ingeltud and Adalhard (the seneschal) as two of his children. If Alpais was as CS says born 765/70 then Leuthard of Fezensac cannot be her son. We know that Alpais had sons named Leuthard and Eberhard. So on almost any scheme there have to be two Leuthards - one a contemporary of count Bego and Alpais and one a generation later. What I call the “Vezelay group” are the people mentioned by count Gerhard and his wife Bertha in their foundation charter for that abbey. Gerhard’s parents are named as Leuthard and Grimhild and Bertha’s parents are named as Hugo and Bava/Ava. Two very close relatives are also named - Adalhard and Liutfrid. Quite independently of this charter, Hugo and Ava are attested as a couple - their daughter Irmgard married Lothat I. Liutfrid (d.865) was the empress’s brother hence a brother of Bertha. The inference usually made is that if Liutfrid is the brother of Bertha then it is most likely that Adalhard was the brother of Gerhard. The question then is this: is Leuthard father of Gerhard (hereafter ‘Leuthard-G’) in the Vezelay group identical with Leuthard of Fezensac (‘Leuthard-F’)or Leuthard son of Alpais (‘Leuthard-A’) or with neither?

The answer to this question lies partly in the dating one gives to Leuthard-G and Grimhild. We know the death dates for Hugo and Ava (837, 839 resp.). Lothar I was born in 795 and married Irmgard in 821. This suggests that Irmgard may have been born about 795/800. Bertha and Gerhard according to the Vezelay cartulary married in or before 819. Vollmer notes that Hugo’s career was probably underway by 807 and certainly by 811. These factors would suggest that Hugo father of Bertha was probably born about 780 (at the latest and maybe earlier). Something like this birth-date would seem to be OK for Leuthard-G. Would this sort of chronology make it possible for Leuthard-G to be identical with Leuthard-A? Most definitely not if Alpais was the daughter of Louis the Pious since if Alpais was Louis’s child she would have been born about 794. On this Louis-as-father hypothesis Leuthard was born about 806. If Alpais was the daughter of Charlemagne and Himiltrud, she was born 765/70. Bego was a (recent?) widower by 14 July 789 when he alone made a grant to Lorsch in memory of his wife Williburga. My guess is that his marriage with Alpais would be in the period 790/95. So on a Charlemagne-as-father-of-Alpais hypothesis it would seem that highly unlikely that Leuthard-G was identical with Leuthard A.

There are potentially four Leuthards. In 811 Stephan count of Paris and his wife Amaldruda made a donation of Sucy-en-Brie to Notre Dame de Paris which was witnessed by in one version by ‘Leuthardi comitis’ and in another by ‘Leuthardi germanum Stephani comitis’. As R Louis points out there has been a dispute about the authenticity of the texts we have of this charter. But he thinks that the Leuthard (‘Leuthard-P’) who undoubtedly witnessed the autograph was a brother and the successor of Stephan as count of Paris. Is Leuthard-G identical with Leuthard-P? As far as I can ascertain commentators agree on this identification (even though in my view it is still conjectural). So the question remaining is whether Leuthard-G/P is identical with Leuthard-F.

This seems to be the usual identification though not the one made by Chaume (p.543) (who claims that all three Leuthards are identical but I have been unable to locate his argument therefor). Levillain (in an article I have not seen but which is reported by Louis) sees Leuthard-F as a first cousin of Bego (hence three Leuthards) with Leuthard-G being the brother of Stephan count of Paris. There is no nice clincher showing Leuthard-G identical with Leuthard-F (such as a reference to a Grimhild as a wife of Leuthard-F!), but a coherent history of the careers of Stephan in Paris, of Leuthard-F and Bego in Aquitaine and of a Leuthard and Bego counts of Paris can and have been constructed which invites this identification. CS too seems to make this identification (see above). If this identification is made then Leuthard-G/P/F has a conjectural date of birth much earlier than 780 i.e. more like 765 as posited by CS and others. This earlier date is determined largely by his Paris and Aquitaine career, his putative parents being Gerhard count of Paris and Rotrud and his death in or after 811.

R Louis *Girart, comte de Vienne (...819-877) et ses fondations monastiques* (Auxerre, 1946) L Levillain “Les comtes de Paris a l’epoque franque” *Le Moyen Age* 41 (1941) 139-205 L Levillain “Girart, comte de Vienne” *Le Moyen Age* 55 (1949), 225-245 C Settipani *La prehistoire des capetiens 481-987: premiere partie* (Villeneuve d’Asq, 1993) C Settipani “Les comtes d’Anjou et leurs alliances aux Xe et Xie siecles” in

  • Family Trees and the Roots of Politics: the prosopography of Britain and France from the tenth to the twelfth century* (Woodbridge, 1997) edited by K S B Keats Rohan, pp.211-268 M Chaume *Les origines du duche de Bourgogne* I (Dijon, 1925) The references to E Hlawitschka and K F Werner have already been given in this discussion. The first Levillain paper is the one I note above as not having read (though I am trying to get it).!searchin/soc.genealogy.medi...

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