Joyce Toke

By tradition -

"John Toke lived in the reign of King Henry V, 1387-1422 and King Henry VI, 1421-1471 and married Joyce Hoo daughter of ... Hoo, brother of Lord Hoo. Three sons: Thomas, Ralph, John"

disputed origins

A note about parents:

Many genealogists have (unsuccessfully) sought the parents of Joyce Hoo. Her father is described as the brother of Lord Hoo, who married Rose Glemham, the daughter of John Glemham, Kt. Unfortunately, no such arrangement can be found with Joyce's dates. Specifically, by looking at her children and contemporaneous records from the Dover Incorporation documents, we find that Joyce cannot be born after 1394, and indeed she cannot be born earlier than 1385 either. This is completely inconsistent with the Glemham hierarchy, which has John born around 1410, and his father William born between 1350 and 1360, limited once again by contemporaneous records of interactions between William Glemham and the royal family. There are also problems with the Hoo hierarchy, which is contradictory in the extreme when examined source by source. Some aspects are thought to have been bogused (invented) at various points in history, specifically the relationship between Sir Thomas, Lord Hoo, and his full brother William, who was reported to have died without issue. A third brother, Robert or Richard, seemingly was created out of thin air to support a later claim made by supposed Hoo descendants from a later generation.

In this tree, what we think happened is that Robert Hoo, of Maltlaster, was bogused as a brother of Lord Hoo:

• It appears Lord Hoo actually has a Thomas Hoo the younger half brother & that is the origination of the Sir Thomas Hoo name for Joyce's father
• Lord Hoo had either one or two brothers who died without heirs, therefore the 2nd brother had to become Thomas the younger, whose dates are far too late to be the father of Joyce
• To solve that difficulty, our intrepid medieval genealogists inserted Robert of Maltlaster (d aft 1418) as a brother
• Joyce, who was Robert's daughter, thus became the niece of the Lord Hoo

So, since Joyce cannot be the daughter of William Hoo who married Rose Glemham, who is she the daughter of? She's the daughter of a Hoo, of the lineage of Robert of Maltlaster, and the dates insist she's of the same generation as William, possibly his sister. That is the tree we've incorporated herein.

Here's an explanation that covers, in part, our thesis:

From page 104 of Sussex Archaeological Collections, Relating to the History & Antiquities of .."Family of Braose." page image:

https://media.geni.com/p13/ec/90/13/d2/534448470299028c/img_1200_original.jpg?hash=1e9c3c7662b0d31956a2ccfe03358746a228af3ce8d0fb0811ffb5942a248d95.1735199999

This is the disproved pedigree:

https://www.geni.com/documents/view?doc_id=6000000073309850143&amp

And, a 2015 conversation with Douglas Richardson, who points out problems with another common pedigree:

https://media.geni.com/p13/74/dd/88/37/5344484703011d7e/img_1203_original.jpg?hash=9bf7db59d25dd2d2a030fe1f6fde5ead6ac5be7222668d6f96f40b51e41314a9.1735199999

supporting data

From http://tookefamily.org/tooke112503/211.htm

Sir Thomas married 2) Elizabeth de Echyngham and had a son Sir Thomas Hoo, father of Joyce Hoo who married John (Toke) Tooke.

From https://www.stirnet.com/genie/data/british/tt/tooke1.php

Whilst his [John Toke's] wife may well have been a Hoo, she would probably have been a generation earlier than a niece of Lord Hoo (who d 1454/5).

From The Gentleman's Magazine, Volume 13 page 338

J. S. in reply to CANT1ANUS on the family of Toke, (Jan. p. 38, where he says, "The ancient Barony of Hoo and Hastings, created 24th of Henry VI. in the person of Thomas Hoo, who died without issue, there is reason to believe is in abeyance in the family of Toke of Godinton, as John Toke of Beere married Joyce, only daughter of Sir Thomas Hoo, brother of the Lord Hoo, from which marriage the Rev. Nicholas Toke, the present possessor of Godinton, is lineally descended) begs leave to observe, that as the barony of Hoo was created by Letters Patent it would immediately become extinct on the failure of heirs male, and even if it had been created by writ it would not be in abeyance in the family of Toke, as Lord Hoo left issue (beside a son who died in his father's lifetime issueless) four daughters, of whom Jane married Sir Roger Copley, Knight, from which marriage the present Sir Joseph Copley maternally descends. It is also remarkable that Lord Hoo's name was Thomas, which makes it improbable that he should have a brother bearing the same." This Correspondent is nearly correct in his statement. Lord Hoo left three daughters and coheirs, Anne married to Roger Copley, Eleanor to James Carew, and Elizabeth to Sir John Devenish, whose sons Roger Copley, aet. 40, Richard Carew, wet. 40, and Richard Devenish, aet. 36, in 4 Hen. VIII. were found to be coheirs, in right of their respective mothers, of Eleanor Lady Hoo and Hastings.

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From page 1516 of A Genealogical and Heraldic Dictionary of the Landed Gentry of ..., Volume 2 By Sir Bernard Burke

The family of Toke, the name of whose patriarch appears on the roll of Battle Abbey, is stated in Thokoton's Notts, to have been settled in that co. as early as the reign of William Rufus, and to have possessed large estates there at Kelham, Walkeringham, &c. The pedigree given by that historian has the name spelled in seventeen different ways. Of this family was Sir Bryan Tuke, who was first secretary to Cardinal Wolsey, afterwards foreign secretary to HENRY VIII, then treasurer of the king's chamber and clerk of the signet, and sometime ambassador to France with Bishop Tunstall.

JOHN TOKE, of Beere, in the parish of Westcliff, near Dover (eighth in lineal descent from ROBERT DE TOKE, who was at the battle of Northampton with HENRY III, in 1264), m., 2 EDWARD III, Elizabeth Malmains, and was father of JOHN TOKE, of Beere, M.P. for Dover, temp. HENRY V, who m. Joyce, dau. of Sir Thomas Hoo, 2nd brother of the Lord Hoo and Hastings, and had three sons

• 1. THOMAS, his heir.
• II. Ralph, ancestor of the Tookes, of Herts, Dorsetshire, and London.
• III. John, who m. Alice, dau, and heiress of Thomas Crouch, of Dover, and had an only child, Alice, wife of Sir John Eyre, of Derbyshire.

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• Not listed http://archive.org/stream/visitationshert00britgoog#page/n23/mode/2up
• Listed in the Toke pedigree but not the Hoo pedigree http://archive.org/stream/visitationshert00britgoog#page/n176/mode/1up
• http://genealogy.heritage-files.com/getperson.php?personID=P-180886...
• http://www.tookefamily.org/tooke072603fg/f259.htm#f63