Sir Roger de Carminow, "Crusader"

Roger Carminow, lord of Trelowith

• Birth: ABT 1240 in Trelowith Manor, St Mewan, Cornwall, England
• Death:.Aug 1308 in Carminowe, Cornwall, England
• Father: Roger de Carminow b: ABT 1210 in Trelowith Manor, St Mewan, Cornwall, England
• Mother: Sara de Hornicote b: ABT 1214 in Tintagel, Cornwall, England

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Family

Marriage 1273 in Hartland, Devon to Joanna Dinham b: ABT 1244 / 1248 in Hartland, Devon. Daughter of Sir Geoffrey de DINHAM Knight (d 1258), she was living in 1321.

They had the following children:

• M i Sir Oliver CARMINOWE Sheriff of Cornwall was born 1274 and died 23 Dec 1343. Oliver- b. 1278, m.1. Elizabeth Pomeroy sister of John Holland, Duke of Exeter 2. Isolda daughter of Reginald Ferrers 3. about 1335 Sibell ______, d. 1345
• M ii Sir John CARMINOWE Knight was born 1276 and died 2 Dec 1331. m. JANE (2) GLYNN, d. Nov. 1331
• M iii Richard CARMINOWE 1, 2 was born 1279 in Carminowe, Cornwall, England.
• M iv Minanus CARMINOWE 1, 2 was born 1282 in Carminowe, Cornwall, England. (Thomasine)- d.s.p.
• F v Matilda CARMINOWE was born 1285. Matilda- m. 1. Sir William Ferrers, [from which] 2. Baro de Slane, 3. John Bonville, 4. Champernon de Berr Ferris
• F vi Joan CARMINOWE was born 1288 and died after 6 Nov 1348. Joanna- m. William de Wellesbro(14) (d. 1329) d. after 1332

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Notes

From “Carminowe” < link >

Sir Roger was a M.P. for Cornwall in 1300 and was a crusader (the last crusade was in 1270). He held two knight's fees in Trelowyth and Eglosros. Roger was involved in a court case against Peter de Lanenek pertaining to lands in East and West Dysart.(1)

In 1284 Roger was charged for having one entire knight's fee, was of full age and had not been made a knight.(2) In 1296 "Sir" Roger was summoned to perform military service in person against the Scots.(3) In 1297 he was reported by the Sheriff of Cornwall as holding lands or rents of the annual value of £20 and upwards and was therefore summoned to perform military service with horses and arms etc. "in parts beyond the seas".(4) In 1296 he paid the scutage for Wales.(5) In 1300 he was a member of Parliament and had his writ "de expensis".(6)

In 1301 Sir Roger was a witness to a charter of Thomas de Pridias, Lord of Penstradou, granting to Odo de Rupe three Cornish acres of land in the town of Sheysmore and in the next year he was a witness to two charters relating to Killiganoun and Trevilla.(7) In 1301 Roger was again summoned from Cornwall to perform military service in person against the Scots (8) and in the following year he was a member of Parliament (9) and had his writ 20 Oct. 1302.(10) In 1301 he held in Trelowith and Eglosros one fee valued at £8.(11)

Roger was called to reply to the King for his manor of Wynynton. He said that Richard, formerly Earl of Cornwall, gave to a certain Gervaise de Hornyngcote, his ancester, the manors of Wynynton, Merthyn, and Tamerton in exchange for the manor of Bochym which exchange King Henry, father of this King (Edward I), ratified, which same charter and deed Roger presents.(12)

Roger died in 1308 possesed of the manors of Wynynton and Merthen and also of the manor of Tamerton (which Martin de Fishaer held for the term of his life) which were held from the Earldom of Cornwall by the service of the twentieth part of one knight's fee.(13) In 1300 Roger also held one fee in Hornicote of the annual value of £25.

From An Historical Survey of the County of Cornwall: To which ..., Volume 2, Part 1  By Charles Sandoe Gilbert

CARMINOWE.—This family, is one of the most high -in point of antiquity, that are to be found in the records of Cornwall, consequently its early history must rest in obscurity, or at least in considerable uncertainty.
Roger Carminowe, of Carminowe, in the county of Cornwall, lived in the year 889, and from him follows in succession, the names of Robert, William, and John, all without date. Roger was member in parliament for Cornwall, in the twenty-eighth of Edward I, and appears to have been father of Oliver Carminowe, a person of great note in the time of Richard I], to whom, he had the honor of being lord-chamberlain.

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From http://www.stmawgan.org.uk/st_mawgan_plan.htm

In the Lady chapel are the effigies of Sir Roger De Carminow (A descendant of King Arthur) and his widow Lady Johanna. At the beginning of the reign of James I the effigies were removed from the thirteenth century Carminow Chapel. The life size freestone is in the wall recess under the window and shows the dress and equipment of a knight of the period. The effigy is badly worn and defaced, and the illustration is partly a reconstruction based on similar monuments elsewhere. His crossed legs reveal faith in the resurrection, and the fact he was a crusader, he was with Edward I in the last crusade of the Palestinian holy war, and in the 1296 Scottish war. he died in 1308. His Knights sword and shield display the bend of the Carminow arms. A small triangular shield with a plain "bend", or diagonal band.
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Roger de Carminow, lord of the manor of that name, is supported by a loving wife and family. Frequently at Court, he is a friend of King Edward I, engaging in many matters of state and warfare. In the thirteenth century life is harsh, precarious and can be abruptly ended by war, childbirth, disease, illness or hunger.

Roger de Carminow, lord of the manor of that name, is supported by a loving wife and family. Frequently at Court, he is a friend of King Edward I, engaging in many matters of state and warfare. In the thirteenth century life is harsh, precarious and can be abruptly ended by war, childbirth, disease, illness or hunger. Roger, as lord, is in a more fortunate position than most. However, he is not content. Although he returns the love of those around him he feels himself at odds with them. More significantly, he is at odds with himself. Carminow, a novel based upon the author's research into the Carminow family once present in Cornwall, traces Roger's life from his early days through to his later years, recounting his efforts to be a good husband, father, lord of the manor and loyal subject of his king, his relationship with whom becomes increasingly tense because of their opposing views on important matters. Significant in Roger's life is the education he receives from the monks at Glasney, which instils in him a strong sense of spirituality. Just as significant is his continuing relationship with another woman. It is these two conflicting influences in his life that contribute most to his sense of unease. Carminow is set in the harsh days of the thirteenth century and tells of the life of Roger de Carminow, lord of the manor of that name, as he struggles to be a good husband, father, lord and loyal subject of the king. Elsie Balme, basing her novel on her researches into the Carminow family once present in Cornwall, traces the life of a fascinating but restless man, often at odds with all those who love him, but more significantly at odds with himself. The major causes of his unease are the spirituality instilled into him by the monks during his education, and his continuing relationship with another woman. A novel full of the intricacies of interwoven lives in a time when life itself was precarious.

https://sites.rootsweb.com/~mainegenie/CRM.htm

4I. ROGER (ROGER 1, ROGER 2, ROBERT 3)

Marriage 1 Sara (4) de Hornicote b: ABT 1214 in Tintagel, Cornwall, England Married: ABT 1239 in Tintagel, Cornwall, England

Issue-

1. I. John- d.s.p.
2. 5II. ROGER- m. JOANNA _____, 1.Roger Carminow, Lord of Trelowith b: ABT 1240 in Trelowith Manor, St Mewan, Cornwall, England. d. 1308. Married Joanna de Dinham.
3. III. Gervas-
4. IV. Maud or Lucy- m. Robert Helligan, d. 1276

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References

• Hal Bradley - “Selected Families and Individuals.” < link > “ Sir Roger CARMINOWE Knight [son of Sir Roger de CARMINOWE Knight (d 1248) & Sarah de HORNACOTE) 1, 2, 3, 4, 5 was born 1240 in Carminowe, Cornwall, England. He died Aug 1308 in Carminowe, Cornwall, England. Roger married Joan de DINHAM on 1273 in Carminowe, Cornwall, England.” Cites
• 1. Maclean, John, The Parochial and Family History of the Deanery of Trigg Minor, in the County of Cornwall (London: Nichols & Son, 1873-1879.), 3:149, Family History Library, 942.37 K2ma.
• 2. Moor, Charles, Knights of Edward I (London: Harleian Society Publications, 1929.), 1:183, Los Angeles Public Library, Gen 942.005 H284.
• 3. Maclean, J., Family History of Trigg Minor, 3:158
• 4. Vivian, John Lambrick, The Visitations of Cornwall: Comprising the Heralds' Visitations of 1530, 1573 & 1620 (Exeter: Pollard, 1887.), p. 72, Los Angeles Public Library, Gen 942.37 V858.
• 5. Hull, P. L., "Thomas Chiverton's Book of Obits," Devon & Cornwall Notes & Queries 33:5 (Autumn 1975), p. 146, Family History Library, 942.3 B2d
• The Visitations of Cornwall: Comprising the Heralds' Visitations of 1530, 1573 & 1620, p. 72 < GoogleBooks > “ Roger de Carmynowe married Joanna, [Ped.fin.14, Edw. II, No. 1] Obit. Grey Friars', Bodmin, between 1299 and 1329, dominæ de Kaermynaw. William of Worcester
• Parochial and and Family History of the Parishes of St. Teath and Temple in the County of Cornwall, “Pedigrees of the Families of Carminow, Hornicote, Bloyou, and Tinten.” Page 70: < Archive.Org >
• Journal of the Royal Institution of Cornwall, by Royal Institution of Cornwall. (1864). “Early Pedigree of Carminow, of Carminow (corrected)”. Page 149. < Archive.Org >
• Medievalist Ronny Bodine at soc.genealogy.medieval has Joan de Dinham a generation later, as daughter of Geoffrey’s son Oliver (d 26 Feb 1299) and sister of Josce/Joyce de Dinham (died 30 Mar 1301). https://groups.google.com/g/soc.genealogy.medieval/c/5_L4n1kMODc/m/.... “ From the foregoing and the apparent chronology provided therein, and by Ronny Bodine in prior SGM posts [2], it would appear most likely that Joan, wife of Roger de Carminow and mother of (A) Oliver de Carminow and (B) Joan de Carminow, wife of William de Whalesborough, was a sibling of Sir Josce de Dinham (fl. ca. 1273-1300) and a daughter of Sir Oliver de Dinham of Hartland, Nutwell and Ilsington, Devon, Buckland Denham, Somerset and Cardinham, Cornwall (d. 26 Feb 1298/9). This would add a bit to the ancestry of the Carminow and Whalesborough families.
• http://powys.org/pl_tree/ps21/ps21_394.html “Joan de Carminow was still alive in 1321, Feet of Fines 467; W.Worcs saw her obit in Greyfriars, Bodmin, dated 1299 x 1329. The arms on the shield suggest that Joan was a Dinham by birth, which seems not to be otherwise known (though it is asserted, without authority, by J.P. Yeatman, The Early Genealogical History of the House of Arundell, p. 257b)."[1]
  • [1] PRO, Cornwall Record Office: Arundell of Lanherne and Trerice [AR/17 - AR/50], AR/35/1] Note: the notation calling Oliver de Carminow "George Oliver, Monasticon Dioecesis Exoniensis" [bracketed above] is a recurrent transcription error in the Arundell files on the PRO.
  • J.P. Yeatman, The Early Genealogical History of the House of Arundel (1882) < FamilySearch book link>, p. 257b. < link >; p. 264 “The Dinham Family.” < link >.
• http://powys.org/pl_tree/ps21/ps21_393.html Notes for Sir Roger de Carminowe: “IPM Chan. 2 Edw II, No 72.”
• http://wc.rootsweb.ancestry.com/cgi-bin/igm.cgi?op=GET&db=aet-t&id=...
• * Title: Wallop Family & Their Ancestry Author: Vernon James Watney Publication: Oxford: John Johnson, 1928
• http://wc.rootsweb.ancestry.com/cgi-bin/igm.cgi?op=GET&db=rwfurtaw&...
• http://wc.rootsweb.ancestry.com/cgi-bin/igm.cgi?op=GET&db=rwfurtaw&...
• https://www.our-royal-titled-noble-and-commoner-ancestors.com/p1617...
• https://www.our-royal-titled-noble-and-commoner-ancestors.com/p482.... cites
  • [S1401] Unknown author, The Complete Peerage, by Cokayne, Vol. IV, p. 369, notes; Wallop Family, p. 275.
  • [S16] Douglas Richardson, Magna Carta Ancestry, 2nd Edition, Vol. I, p. 535-536.
  • [S4] Douglas Richardson, Royal Ancestry, Vol. II, p. 320
• https://www.stirnet.com/genie/data/british/cc4aq/carminowe1.php
• “Roger de Carminow and his wife Joan (de Dinham)” SGM, John P. Ravilious et al, Apr 19, 2004. https://groups.google.com/g/soc.genealogy.medieval/c/5_L4n1kMODc/m/...
• “Carminowe” https://sites.rootsweb.com/~mainegenie/CRM.htm cites
  • (1) Assize Roll 11 Edward I, m1-20, 3.m.14
  • (2) Assize Roll, Cornwall, m1-20, 5.m.11
  • (3) Rot. Claus., 28 Edward I, m.12d
  • (4) Cott. M.S. Claud II, fo.64
  • (5) Rot. Pip., 25 Edward I
  • (6) Rot. Claus., 28 Edward I, m.12d
  • (7) Charters at Tregothnan
  • (8) Rot. Claus., 29 Edward I, m.12d & 13
  • (9) Parl. Writs
  • (10) Rot. Claus., 30 Edward I, m.3d
  • (11) Extent of the Fees of Joceus de Dinham- Inq. P.M. 29 Edward I, No.56
  • (12) Assize Roll 30 Edward I, ob.1308, Inq.P.M. 2 Edward II No.73
  • (13) Inq. P.M. 2 Edward II No.73
  • (14) Charters at Nettlecomb Park, Co. Somerset; Pedes Finium 12 Edward II, Trinity; Ped. Fin. 14 Edward II No.1
  • "Parochial and Family History of the Deanery of Trigg Minor"- p.148-9
  • "The Visitations of the County of Cornwall"- p.72
  • "The Coffin Family"- p.83
• "An Historical Survey of the County of Cornwall"-C. Gilbert, p.55
• “Carminow or Carmynowe - Earliest Generations” (document attached)
• Whetter James. Cornwall in the 13th Century : A Study in Social and Economic History. Lyfrow Trelyspen 1998. Page 151. Oliver de Dinham held the lands of Roger de Carminow senior and the wardship of his heir in 1277. Joan, wife of Roger junior, was a Dinham.