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Elizabeth Brems - Incestuous Siblings?

Started by Sharon Doubell on Tuesday, November 3, 2015
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    Sharon Doubell
    Geni Pro
  • Private User
    Geni Pro
  • Private
    Geni member
  • Private User
    Geni Pro
  • J P Weyers
    Geni member
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Showing 1-30 of 48 posts
Sharon Doubell C
11/3/2015 at 7:39 AM

Private User says there is a problem with Elisabeth Margaretha Anspach, who is indicated as wife of Jacob 'der Dicke' Anspech/Anspach and Jacob Helm, I in the same generation. Her children by each husband are indicated as marrying each other ie a half-brother, Jacob Helm, II and half-sister, Margaretha Helm wed.
This is unlikely to have happened - its incest and would not I believe have been permitted under either Canon Law of the time, or German law.
Sharon Doubell C
11/3/2015 at 7:44 AM

My guess is that she's been erroneously married to her son-in law. Any other thoughts that don't involve a radical narrowing of the gene pool? :-)

Private User
11/3/2015 at 8:11 AM

Under sources, everything is listed as MyHeritage matches. Maybe a few MH users got it wrong?

A better source is needed.
Sharon Doubell C
11/3/2015 at 8:31 AM

Agreed

Private
11/4/2015 at 5:59 AM

I have a family tree on GENI that I started several years ago before hte merging of trees and the merging of GENI with Heritage. I no longer use it because of the mess it has become. Do you know how I can remove the line of Jacob Helm from Elizabeth Brems?
Sharon Doubell C
11/4/2015 at 10:36 PM

I will remove it if everyone is happy with that. Let me know if there are other changes that need to be made. Crowd sourced data develops lines we'd never know we had otherwise, but it has to be given time for users to correct it too. Over time it skews towards accuracy because of the huge user base watching it.
Sharon Doubell C
10/3/2018 at 1:40 AM

Do you have Sources?
Sharon Doubell C
5/17/2021 at 5:46 AM

J P Weyers says of Jacob Helm, II

I do hope you are all aware that he and his wife Margaretha Helm has the same no name mother.

Private User
5/17/2021 at 6:04 AM

This all probably started with someone casually giving the wife the husband's surname(s) and someone else carelessly mis-attaching her to her husband's parents. (I've seen this happen a few times.)

The closest relationship they *could* have would be step-siblings, and that only if Jacob Helm I married a widow with a young daughter *and* all parties were Lutheran.

Our four "sources" on the subject are all MyHeritage links, which are anything but authoritative.

Until further notice I have de-parented her.

Private User
5/17/2021 at 6:11 AM

Note: This appears to be the Veltin Helm line (I-M170), and does not lead directly to the Georg Helm of Winchester line (J-M319).
Sharon Doubell C
5/17/2021 at 6:13 AM

Agreed.

J P Weyers
5/17/2021 at 6:22 AM

Better disconnected .
Right about religion.
Catholic church frown upon any step siblings marrying or first cousins marrying

Private
6/7/2021 at 3:24 AM

C Raymond Aspach. I am so sorry about the mess.

[Sharon Doubell Sharon Doubell] I have told you about this problem and losing users due to the merging of new duplicate profiles and can only ask Raymond to please leave the line and [Private Private] too many deletions are going on and that is one of the problems why we are losing users, because no reason or archival facts are being shown for the reason of deleting and then correcting the information.

I think we must try and sort some other way out for solving problems before just deleting profiles.

Please for Geni's sake.

Judi
Judi

J P Weyers
6/7/2021 at 3:41 AM

Judi -- so you want siblings to remain married ?
Then maybe best I leave GENI .
No reason or archival facts are being shown for profiles to remain as is.
Why do any of us bother to search for valid reliable sources just cdd profiles ,wives ,children, grandparents dates of baotism a few xtra wives a son as father (why not )will nilly as we feel ?
I do NOT agree that it is OK to just leave incorrect unsupported data on GENI no mattercwhom added it.
Especially when it is a ancestor of many other profiles on GENI.
Too many profiles with wrong information was justcadded to fill blank spaces.
You want me to LEAVE GENI Judi ?
Can I go and just add to any profile because sommer ?
That is absurd reasoning

Private
6/7/2021 at 3:51 AM

Private no I don't want you to leave Geni. No I don't say leave blank. No I don't say correct WHEN you hace reliable, archival, and that includes Family Search sources to proof you have good reason for changing. What I am say is that Geni are losing lot of members who feel like Raymond above.

I ask that we try and solve the problem in a reasonable way.

I was asking for a solution to a problem and as not naming any person or looking for a nasty remark. I feel this remark of you or a direct attack. Not what I asked for.

I will withdraw my suggestion if that is what the people feel. I have always have wonderful relationships on Geni and don't have the time, or the need for attacks.

Sorry Phillipp. Let me know if you want me to withdraw my suggestions.

J P Weyers
6/7/2021 at 3:51 AM

Raymond Anspach begging you for corrections, disconnecting and deleting profiles these incorrect profiles and relationships !

Not for keeping incorrect relationships , connections or profiles.

But then just add any old thing anywhere what JUDI wants anyone and everyone on GENI to do.

Where should I start -------

J P Weyers
6/7/2021 at 4:17 AM

Judi --
From what I have seen with Sharon ( and with myself ):
OPEN discussion
Arguements supported by sources or facts or common sense e g. A child can not be born before his parents ,10 year olds rarely have chidren, not likely for siblings to marry .
Fair amount of time before any action is taken
Allowing anyone to partake ( not just relatives , desendants or nanagers ) and managers to get involved. Geni is a collaborative process after all.
Most importantly to act a.s a.p. on any request or query out of respect for everyone .
.Sharon never ever just delete , correct, maintain any profile or information without very good supported reasons.

Users are leaving because facts and sources are not the backup or basis of profiles.
Others are petty insecure individuals that only want things their way even when they can not give supporting sources and somehow think their age , religion, race , profession , sex being a professor of mathematics or something as irrelevant
instantaneously gives their arguments more credence.

You youself - Judi - always ask for sources so you actually inderectly support deletions ,corrections and removing relationships if not supported by valid reliable sources .

Private
6/7/2021 at 4:26 AM

Yes I do only feel a profile is 100% correct when parents, siblings, wife/husband etc. etc. could be supported.

I am working on a Grobbelaar article and found that Sharon-Ann has one profile and before adding what I have< before adding I first asked her permission to add the first husband and children to the profile she was managing.

After she gave me her yes, I added them and made her co-manager of the new profiles, all supported with archival sources.

But enough said. I now withdraw myself from tie discussion if it are going to be a nasty answer.

J P Weyers
6/7/2021 at 4:30 AM

If I am being politely asked to desist in correcting wrong information , profiles etc on GENI according to correct supported valid sources then why would I bother to remain here on GENI or connect my ancestors profiles to completly wrong profiles on GENI !! A family tree correct according to facts is not a duplicate.
-- these people who are not family members interfering -- ?

So may I forthwith disconnect all my profiles and ancestors profiles from WRONG profiles just created without proof or any valid sources in the past please.

J P Weyers
6/7/2021 at 4:38 AM

How do I prevent others from merging profiles I create from valid sources with absolute junk profiles , with xtra wrong grandparents etc created from nothing -- unsupported by any fact except it was added in 2009 by ----- !!!!
Abraham De Klerk x 2? Two siblings same names born 1670 abd 1671 ?
No reply from managers or curator so can I create a real separate profile based on a proper valid source ?

J P Weyers
6/7/2021 at 6:21 AM

Judith Susanna Hendrika Meyer, Judi - i12j2 C
Today at 12:24 PM
Report

C Raymond Aspach. I am so sorry about the mess.

[Sharon Doubell Sharon Doubell] I have told you about this problem and losing users due to the merging of new duplicate profiles and can only ask Raymond to please leave the line and [Phillipp - Wierus Sicamber Germanus Phillipp - Wierus Sicamber Germanus] too many deletions are going on and that is one of the problems why we are losing users, because no reason or archival facts are being shown for the reason of deleting and then correcting the information.

I think we must try and sort some other way out for solving problems before just deleting profiles.

Please for Geni's sake.

Judi Judi

THIS IS NASTY JUDI !!
Sharon Doubell C
6/7/2021 at 8:16 AM

Private shew - Phillipp is correct - that feels very nasty, and completely uncalled for about something that happened over 5 years ago and also something where you've again got completely the wrong end of the stick.

Read what was written: C Raymond says https://www.geni.com/discussions/150962?msg=1051246 "Do you know how I can remove the line of Jacob Helm from Elizabeth Brems?"

I reply "I will remove it if everyone is happy with that. Let me know if there are other changes that need to be made." Then I wait for him to give me the Sources he wants me to follow to straighten the rest of it out.

6 years' later, Phillipp points out that the brother and sister Kevin Oram had complained about initially, and Raymond had agreed about, are again married. Of course it's wrong! Of course it must be fixed! Well done to all 3 of them for seeing it and helping us to get it changed.

What is your problem with this Discussion, Judi - that you feel we handled so badly it deserved calling me and Phillip out in public?

Private
6/7/2021 at 8:21 AM

Private I have not accuse you at all as I pointed out to Sharon Doubell something I have mentioned to her because I am worried that another user might leave.

I mention you as an answer to your message above stating

Phillipp - Wierus Sicamber Germanus PRO
5/17/2021 at 1:22 PM
Report
Better disconnected .
Right about religion.
Catholic church frown upon any step siblings marrying or first cousins marrying

I don't have the time, or energy to keep on reading all the names you are calling me.

This is not the first time and I really find it unnecessary. This is not the first time.
Further I am not the 1st curator you have had this way of talking to. No I will not report you but are keeping this completely on my PC - copy and pasted.

Hope you have a good evening.

Judi

Private
6/7/2021 at 8:28 AM

Sharon Doubell I really can't care anymore.

This I agree with but where is it in the discussion, Sharon?

If that was mention, I would have agree to fixing that.

Further I was as said above referring to the fact the he - Raymond are another user leaving and we should try and solve that.

I had no problem with this discussion and am sorry if you saw it incorrect.

Sharon-- I reply "I will remove it if everyone is happy with that. Let me know if there are other changes that need to be made." Then I wait for him to give me the Sources he wants me to follow to straighten the rest of it out.
AGREE to wait.

I will rather stay away in future.

Judi
Sharon Doubell C
6/7/2021 at 8:32 AM

Nobody is likely to have a good evening after this, Judi. I think you have misunderstood this Discussion and the very positive roles played by all the users in the conversation until your post. NOBODY here, including Raymond, disagreed with anybody - and everybody worked together to fix a mismerge error.

You created the first dissent and you called people out by name over something that you misunderstood.
You owe us a simple apology, not a threat to report Phillipp for pointing out that no church would marry siblings.

Sharon Doubell C
6/7/2021 at 8:37 AM

RE but where is it in the discussion, Sharon?

It's the reason for the whole Discussion, Judi: https://www.geni.com/discussions/150962?msg=1051119

Kevin Sydney Oram says "there is a problem with Elisabeth Margaretha Brems (Helms) Anspech/Anspach's, Mother, who is indicated as wife of Jacob 'der Dicke' Anspech/Anspach and Jacob Helm, I in the same generation. Her children by each husband are indicated as marrying each other ie a half-brother, Jacob Helm, II and half-sister, Margaretha Nn Helm wed.
This is unlikely to have happened - its incest and would not I believe have been permitted under either Canon Law of the time, or German law."

Private
6/7/2021 at 8:39 AM

i have not reported him and I have not called out names but for getting your attention. So Sharon if you feel I owe you an explanation I am really sorry I misunderstood you and you misunderstood me.++

JUdi
Sharon Doubell C
6/7/2021 at 8:41 AM

Okay great.

Private
6/7/2021 at 8:42 AM

I replied to this///

Raymond Anspach

11/4/2015 at 1:59 PM
Report
I have a family tree on GENI that I started several years ago before hte merging of trees and the merging of GENI with Heritage. I no longer use it because of the mess it has become. Do you know how I can remove the line of Jacob Helm from Elizabeth Brems?

NO I AM FINISHED WITH THIS DISCUSSION.

Private
6/7/2021 at 8:43 AM

Thank you Sharon.

Showing 1-30 of 48 posts

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