Kah-tah-yah ‘Susie’ Foreman

Susie was a Cherokee woman

Disputed Origins

A previous version of this profile listed a woman named "Susie Gourd" based on a mis-interpretation of James Hicks' web site. Hicks attempted to "reverse engineer" clans for historical Cherokee people, in this case working from a later woman named "Susie Gourd." There is no evidence for the parents or any maiden name for "Susie." Starr records that her husband, John Foreman, was also married to her niece, Elizabeth. Hicks' theorizes that both women were related to a man named "Teetarskeehee."

(Curator Note: some say her surname was Rattlinggourd, not Gourd, which may be for the convenience of researchers. It appears that the family used the name Rattlinggourd into the 20th century.)

Biography

Susie was born about 1750 in the Cherokee Nation (East); her father may have been a Cherokee man named “ Teetarskeeskee.” According to Emmet Starr, she was a full-blooded Cherokee of the Blind Savannah clan. [1] Susie married John Anthony Foreman, a white man from Pennsylvania, about 1780. They were the parents of six children: John, Thomas, Catherine, Nannie, Sallie, and Richard. [2] Susie's death date is unknown. The records of the Candy's Creek Church list "Nancy Fields," age 90, as a member in 1828 and missionary William Holland wrote in 1825 "another member was Nancy Fields, an aged widow, full blood and mother of T. Foreman (and Catherine Foreman)." [3] If Holland was correct, then Susie married someone named Fields and was also called "Nancy." [4] Anthony Foreman had either died or left the Cherokee Nation before the 1835 Cherokee census.

Research Notes

• Sons John, Thomas, Richard, and daughter Catherine were all still living at Candy's Creek in 1835. [5]
• Thomas Foreman was in his early forties in 1825 and had three younger siblings; it's unlikely that their mother was in her forties when they were born.
• There is no evidence for the name "Gourd" and absolutely nothing to connect them with RattlingGourd (who was 20-25 years younger than Susie). There is a possibility that Susie's father was named Teetarskeeskee.

Sources

1. ↑ Hampton, David K. and Baker, Jack D., eds. Old Cherokee Families Notes of Dr. Emmet Starr. Baker Publishing Co., Oklahoma City, OK. 1987. Vols. 1 and 2, notes A860, H769.
2. ↑ Starr, Emmet. History of the Cherokee Indians. Oklahoma Yesterday Publications edition, Tulsa, OK. 1979. p. 363. Digitized edition at https://archive.org/details/historyofcheroke00lcstar/page/n5
3. ↑ Cherokee Family Researcher, Mesa, AZ, Fall, 1992 and Spring, 1993. Records of the Candy's Creek Church, transcribed by Jerry Clark. digitized at church
4. ↑ Starr, History, p. 363
5. ↑ 1835 Cherokee Census, transcription published by the Oklahoma Chapter, Trail of Tears Association, Park Hill, OK. 2002. Original records: National Archives and Records Administration, Microfilm publication T496, Census Roll, 1835, of Cherokee Indians East of the Mississippi with Index.

Source: https://www.wikitree.com/wiki/Teetarskeeskee-1
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JOHN ANTHONY FOREMAN II (JOHN ANTHONY1) was born 1744 in Philadelphia Colony, PA, and died October 17, 1817 in CNE [Bradley, TN].
He married (1) SUSIE TI-TA-S-GI-S-GI Abt. 1780 in CNE [TN], daughter of TI-TA-S-GI-S-GI.She was born Abt. 1750 in CNE [TN], and died Abt. 1830.
He married (2) ELIZABETH WA-TI GURDAYGLE Abt. 1799 in Cherokee Nat, NC, daughter of GURDAYGLE and SARAH TI-TA-S-GI-S-GI.She was born Abt. 1770, and died January 08, 1845.

• Blood: Scotchman
• Starr's Notes: A860, H879 as Anthony Foreman

Notes for SUSIE TI-TA-S-GI-S-GI:

• Blood: Full Blood Cherokee
• Clan: Ani'-Wâ'di = Red Paint (Susie Gourd)
• Starr's Notes: pg 566, A860, H879 "Blind Savannah Clan"

Notes for ELIZABETH WA-TI GURDAYGLE:

• Niece of Susie Gourd.
• Clan: Ani'-Wâ'di = Red Paint (Susie Gourd)
• Starr's Notes: A860, H879 "Blind Savannah Clan"

Children of JOHN FOREMAN and SUSIE TI-TA-S-GI-S-GI are:
3. i. JOHN3 FOREMAN, b. Abt. 1780, CNE [TN]; d. 1807.
4. ii. THOMAS FOREMAN, SR, b. Abt. 1782, CNE [TN]; d. Aft. 1851.
5. iii. CATHERINE FOREMAN, b. April 17, 1785, CNE [TN]; d. November 23, 1842, Stilwell, CNW.
6. iv. NANNIE (GOURD) FOREMAN, b. Abt. 1786, CNE [TN]; d. December 31, 1866.
7. v. SALLIE FOREMAN, b. Abt. 1788, CNE [TN]; d. September 01, 1839, Fairfield, CNW.
8. vi. RICHARD BARK FOREMAN, b. Abt. 1790, CNE [TN]; d. Aft. 1851.

Source: Hicks, James R. “Cherokee Lineages: Register Report of John Anthony Foreman I” Genealogy.com, Sites.Rootsweb.com,, https://www.genealogy.com/ftm/h/i/c/James-R-Hicks-VA/BOOK-0001/0013...
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Foreman.
The descendants of Anthony Foreman, a Scotchman who married two full blood Cherokee wives.
11 Anthony Foreman. Susie “Gourd” and Elizabeth. A26
1112 John Foreman. Nannie Drumgoole nee Doublehead and Ruth Springston.
2 Catherine Foreman. James Bigby.
3 Thomas Foreman. Susannah Brewer nee Fields.
4 Nannie Foreman. Bushyhead.
5 Sallie Foreman. William Hicks.
6 Richard Bark Foreman. and Rachel Seabolt.
—————
7 Archibald Foreman. Aky Brewer and Theresa Kerr. A27
8 Elsie Foreman. James Spears.
9 Stephen Foreman. Sallie W. Riley and Ruth Candy nee Riley.
10 Edward Foreman. Minerva Kerr.
11 Mary Foreman. Thomas Barnes.
12 Alexander Foreman. Ruth Phillips * and Sarah Fields.

(Curator Note: the name “Gourd” above is in red indicating that the original is illegible)

A26. “Anthony Foreman was a Scotchman. His second wife, Elizabeth was a niece of his first wife.”

Source: Starr, Emmett. “History of the Cherokee Indians and Their Legends and Folklore.” Warden Company, 1922.
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John Anthony Foreman, (II) married two Cherokee women named Susie and Elizabeth (Susie's niece) whose parents are also unknown. There is no evidence for the name "Gourd" and absolutely nothing to connect them with RattlingGourd (who was 20-25 years younger than Susie). There is a possibility that Susie's father was named Teetarskeeskee.

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Family

https://www.genealogy.com/ftm/f/o/r/Lynda-S-Foreman/BOOK-0001/0004-...

Anthony2 Foreman (John Anthony1) was born 1744 in Scotland, and died October 17, 1817 in Cherokee Nation, Bradley, Tennessee.He married (1) Susie Kah-tah-yah Gourd Abt. 1779 in Cherokee Nation East Tennessee, daughter of Teetarskeeskee.She was born Abt. 1741 in Cherokee Nation East Tennessee, and died Aft. 1828.He married (2) Elizabeth Gurdaygle Abt. 1799 in Cherokee Nation North Carolina.She was born Abt. 1781 in Cherokee Nation East, and died January 08, 1845.

Some researchers say that Anthony's wife Susie died sometime around 1800, at which time he married her maternal niece, Elizabeth "Watee" Gurdaygle.But information taken from church records show that Susie was still living in 1828.At that time she is shown by a missionary as an elderly full blooded Cherokee woman in his church and going by the name of Nancy Fields.(Taken from Candy Creek Mission Church)By then Anthony had been dead 10 years and had raised a second family by Elizabeth.

Now it could have been a polygamous marriage, which was not uncommon in those days.But my theory concerning Anthony and his two wives suggests that he and Susie were divorced (his will mentions only Elizabeth as his wife).He probably married Elizabeth around 1799 or 1800, since his first child by her, Archibald, was born on January 1, 1801.The reason for the assumption of a divorce between Anthony and Susie is that there was a span of about 13 years between his two sets of children, which makes me think there was a period during that time when he did not have a wife.

Nevertheless, Anthony Foreman was the father of 12 children, six by each wife.There were five daughters and seven sons, with the first child, John, being about 36 years older than the last one.They all grew to adulthood and all married.One of the children was Thomas, my direct ancestor, and another was Stephen, the renown Presbyterian minister and missionary.Names of the other children were Catherine, Nannie, Sallie, Richard, Archibald, Elsie, Edward, Mary and Alexander.

Marriage: Abt. 1779, Cherokee Nation East Tennessee

Children of Anthony Foreman and Susie are:

• + 4 i. John Anthony3 Foreman, born Abt. 1780 in Cherokee Nation East Tennessee; died 1807 in Cherokee Nation East/Killed.
• + 5 ii. Catherine Foreman, born April 17, 1785 in Ooyougilogi County, Tennessee; died 1872 in Stilwell, Indian Territory.
• + 6 iii. Thomas Foreman, Sr., born Abt. 1782 in Cherokee Nation East Tennessee; died Abt. 1854 in Cherokee Nation, Indian Territory, Oklahoma.
• + 7 iv. Nannie Foreman, born Abt. 1784 in Cherokee Nation East Tennessee; died 1868 in Near Tahlequah, Cherokee Nation, Indian Territory.
• + 8 v. Sarah 'Sallie' Bathia Foreman, born Abt. 1786 in Cherokee Nation East Tennessee; died September 01, 1839 in Fairfield, Cherokee Nation, Indian Territory, Oklahoma.
• + 9 vi. Richard Bark Foreman, born Abt. 1787 in Cherokee Nation East Tennessee; died Bef. 1879 in Cherokee Nation, Indian Territory, Oklahoma.

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http://americanindianregistry.org/genealogy/Example_Only__CherokeeH...

John's first wife, after whom he married her niece Elizabeth Watee Gurdaygle, also of Paint Clan. Elizabeth was my gggg-grandmother Mary's mother.

Notes for Susie Kahtahyah "Cherokee:

Full Blood Cherokee Clan: Paint Clan

Ref; Emmet Starr, E Starr, 363, 558, 566. On page 566 Starr lists Susie as being in the Savannah Clan

All records passed down to the Foreman family has always stated that Susie was a member of the Paint Clan as does Rev. Holland's notes (see Catherine Foreman).

One application of Guion Miller (roll number to be placed here) states that Susie Gourd, 1st wife of Anthony Foreman, was a daughter of a Cherokee named "Teetarskeeskee".

• http://americanindianregistry.org/genealogy/Example_Only__CherokeeH...
• U.S. and International Marriage Records, 1560-1900 Page: Source number: 13696.000; Source type: Electronic Database; Source text: Birth date: 1755 Birth place: PA Marriage date: 1780 Marriage place: TN
• https://www.genealogy.com/ftm/h/i/c/James-R-Hicks-VA/BOOK-0001/0013...
• https://www.wikitree.com/wiki/Teetarskeeskee-1 cites
  • Hampton, David K. and Baker, Jack D., eds. Old Cherokee Families Notes of Dr. Emmet Starr. Baker Publishing Co., Oklahoma City, OK. 1987. Vols. 1 and 2, notes A860, H769.
  • Starr, Emmet. History of the Cherokee Indians. Oklahoma Yesterday Publications edition, Tulsa, OK. 1979. p. 363. Digitized edition at https://archive.org/details/historyofcheroke00lcstar/page/n5
  • 1835 Cherokee Census, transcription published by the Oklahoma Chapter, Trail of Tears Association, Park Hill, OK. 2002. Original records: National Archives and Records Administration, Microfilm publication T496, Census Roll, 1835, of Cherokee Indians East of the Mississippi with Index.

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GEDCOM Note

Pain Clan