Private User and Private Userare looking for information on Judith Anne de Liénard du Mornay.
Danielle le Marais 17/3/2012 at 8:28 AM
=Regarding Judith Anne (du Plessis de Mornay) I have been, despite extensive research, unable to find her name connected to any of the du Mornay genealogical sites, such as Racineshistoire..She is certainly Not the daughter, of Philippe de Mornay, & his wife Charlotte Arbaleste..I have traced back earlier lines, & found nothing leading to this name either...Where did her name originate from?...If there was indeed a Judith Anne de Mornay, who definately existed, then the only conclusion I can reach, is that she was a descendant of Martin de Mornay de la Tour de Mornay, who was the illegitimate son of Pierre "le Jeune" de Mornay (died 1423), who was the son of Pierre de Mornay (died 1404) & Jeanne de Vendome....I have already found incorrect ancestry on the du Plessis line, as the line leading to Francois du Plessis & Francoise de Charge, was a different Francois du Plessis...An earlier line from the eldest son, Pierre du Plessis (not Sauvage) of Guillaume du Plessis & Charlotte de la Celle,..I have already posted information regarding this..It makes me wonder now about Jean du Plessis..He obviously existed, but were there records to show that he was indeed the son of Francois II du Plessis (1510-1560) & Francoise de Charge?=
Sharon Lee Doubell
= Danielle, [ ]collaborate on the DuPlessis Project page with other managers of this family name's profiles. For eg, Leith Barnes and I were chatting about this profile last week - and she is also researching her. We spoke about my finding of this first hand account http://www.archive.org/stream/huguenotfamilyin00mornuoft/huguenotfa... by Judith's mother (and my 11th gggrandmother!) of their experiences as a Huguenot family in the 16th Century, and were going to try and find out more details from this. (It's long - so the more of us trying to glean info from it the better :-)
Remember to make sure you've messaged other managers on the profiles before you make significant changes.=
Danielle le Marais
= Hi Sharon! Yes I would be very happy to be involved in any du Plessis research...I'm desparately hoping to tie up any "loose ends", as if it all connects, we have some very interesting ancestry further back!=
On du Plessis.:.Guillaume du Plessis spouse Charlotte de la Celle..They had two sons..The younger one Sauvage, married Isabeau le Groing..This line continues to the Cardinal Richelieu line..However, Our Line continues with the elder son of Guillaume & Charlotte, who was Pierre. He married Radegonde Vigiere..Their son, Jean (1382-1486) married Catherine Fretard.Their son Mande, married Marie de la Tousche ..Mande & Marie's son, Sauvage, married Francoise l'Eveque..Their son, Fancois I du Plessis Seigneur du Plessis,des Breux, la Carreliere, et Thou...married Madeleine de Champropin..Their son was Francois II, du Plessis, who married Francoise de Charge.
That's fantastic, Danielle - please put it all on the text in the project so everyone can start to contribute. (It may take a while for the duPLessis managers to realise it's happening - but this will make crucial changes to one of the main SA lines back to Charlemagne; so we need to do it carefully.)
I've put an all- call alert for help on the SA Geni FB page http://www.facebook.com/groups/243811932355680/285914691478737/ , and will do one on Geni too.
Private User has found the following in the LDS records - but so far, no Primary sources:
Yes I did find someone his name is Armond Jean II du Plessis (1542-1640) he is married to Judith Anne De Mornay (1578-).
His father is Francois du Plessis de Mornay (1510-1560) and his mother is
Francoise de Charge (1520-).
If the records are correct they may have been half brother and sister. Is this possible?
It is a huge family tree and goes back as far as Frane de Belvoir Lord of Belvoir (980-)
I'll take a look at the others and get back to you.
If Francois du Plessis de Mornay (1510-1560) was indeed Armond Jean II du Plessis (1542-1640) father and he had three wives. Francoise de Charge (1520-) plus d'Anne Le Roy (1512-) plus Marguerite Boilesue (1509-).
Could Judith Anne have not been Jean II half sister. In the Mormon register they are listed as husband and wife and also brother and sister. This could just be an error, but it might be worth looking at.
Private User, we've established that he definitely didn't have 3 wives - see this discussion:
There has been a confusion (perpetuated, I think by the LDS registry) between these two cousins; where the former has accrued the wives of the latter;
Updated links for them are: http://www.geni.com/people/Fran%C3%A7ois-II-du-Plessis-Richelieu/60...
Is the de Richelieu cousin (mother: René Eveillechien, and not the SA direct ancestor) who had Anne Le Roy and Guyonne de Laval as wives.
His cousin http://www.geni.com/people/Fran%C3%A7ois-II-du-Plessis/600000001664... is the SA ancestor (son of Madeleine de Champropin) who married Francoise de Charge.
(I see his connection to Charlemagne is still broken, though – Will try and figure out why later in the week)
I’ve put a family tree on this project: http://www.geni.com/projects/du-Plessis-family-of-South-Africa/10778.
OK. I will leave the tree alone and not add any children until you have had time to sort it out. It will only add to the confusion. The records in the Church are usually pretty good but they were added in some cases back in 1912 without the help of computers. Once we have sorted it all out I will send a message to the historian in Salt Lake City and they can correct their records. Have a great week.
:-) Don't worry about leaving it alone - I think the two cousins are now in there correctly and quite solidly, and we need to find sources for Jean Prieur and the du Mornay connection. We're not going to do that without trying out different options and thinking outside the box.
Keep the ideas and research coming, doll. Please.
Nicola Bensimon said: I know there has been a bit of discussion about who Judith Ann du Mornay was, if indeed she existed. What is currently on Geni lists her as one of Phillipe du Mornay's children, but since he was born in 1549 and she was allegedly born in 1555, this cannot be possible. His birth date is what is on Wiki so therefore I would assume it is true, so either her birth date is totally wrong or she was his sister and not his daughter. Any further comments in this regard from anyone? If she is his daughter, his other children were born in the 1570's, and this would make more sense if Charl du Plessis (her son) was born in 1600. Maybe her birth date was meant to be 1575 and not 1555?
As both Private User & Private User have expressed interest in this before (see above), so perhaps together we can make some progress on this one.
I thoroughly enjoyed this first hand account http://www.archive.org/stream/huguenotfamilyin00mornuoft/huguenotfa... by Judith's mother Charlotte d'Arbaleste, Dame de La Borde (and my 11th gggrandmother!) of their experiences as a Huguenot family in the 16th Century – including the only (if I recall correctly) first hand account of the St Bartholemew Day Massacre.
The intro is also a wonderful view on the society of the time – including details about the women’s petitions to be allowed wider dresses, and travel details about the convenience of the hire-horse industry in Germany that allowed you to drop off your horse at the end of your journey at a connected depot, without having to pay for it being returned to the start of your journey. (Europcar – except with horses )
We were going to try and find out more details from this. (It's long - so the more of us trying to glean info from it the better :-) too. I can’t remember why I got interrupted in doing it, but will come back to it in a month or two (Once I make some progress on the Medieval Scotland project I’m working on) to help you gals, if you’ve already started.
From http://www.geni.com/discussions/108521?msg=800986 Discussion:
Alexander Armenis (Alex): Sharon, I'm struggling to follow your logic and would appreciate an explanation.
What is the objective with Judith Anne de Lienard, are you confident that we are going to find her name connected to our stamvader? I don't know of anything that links her to the South African Du Plessis family. What's the plan? I would like to assist.
Sharon Doubell: Alexander Armenis, she's in Jean Prieur du Plessis, SV/PROG line on Geni as his grandmother - So, presumably someone at some stage must have thought they had evidence/reason to connect them. I was reading her diary to find out clues. eg They were Huguenots- as opposed to the de Richelieu cousins who persecuted them - so it isn't unlikely... but that's all we've got so far.
Nicola Bensimon: I will read the link about the diary. I have done some reading about Phillipe du Mornay & he is an interesting character. What I find interesting is that he too, has the Plessis name. (Marly-Plessis - which must be a place name)
I was hoping to find mention of a Judith in my reading about Phillipe but so far there is nothing. He was a staunch Huguenot. I will let you know if I find anything. Alexander, do you live in France - that would be so useful right now!
Nicola Bensimon: Oh I see now (just started reading Sharons link about the Memoirs) - Plessis-Marly was the name of his estate. Thanks for the link Sharon - I am glad it is in english! My knowledge of Francais is limited to rude scratchings on school desks.
Sharon Doubell: Nicola - my French is limited to the French words in English, so the rude scratchings on school desks are even beyond me :-)
If you've read about Phillipe - you'll really enjoy her diary & the intro that went with it. It isn't actually that long.
OK, so because I am bored at work, I opened the link to the Memoires and have read the whole thing (well, some of it I skimmed but I went through every single page) and there is NO mentioned of a Judith Ann de Mornay at all. I checked on Racinehistoire as well, and ditto. No Judith. However, the de Lienart part is interesting because Phillipe de Mornay's older brother was Pierre, Seigneur de Buhy & governor of St Lienart in Limousin. So I thought maybe she was HIS daughter, but turns out he only had a son. Phillipe & Charlotte had daughter called Ann, who was Pierre's god daughter, so I thought she might be a likely candidate, but she was married twice & neither time to a Jean du Plessis. In previous discussions it was mentioned that du Plessis children were sent into foster care and this was also the case with Phillipe & Charlotte - their kids were brought up by their grandmother while Phillipe & Charlotte toured Europe. Its a very interesting memoir & worth a read. They hobnobbed with Queen Elizabeth 1 and her cronies for a while, in between whiles running for their lives.
Now you mention it, Nicola - I think I got disgruntled when I couldn't find her there either. I had been so hopeful.
Adding in some emailed thoughts on the general subject of a link to Jean Prieur by Private User (who isn't able to get onto Geni due to a virus:
Hello Sharon! Hope things are going well with your current ventures & researches...Whilst waiting for some DNA testing kit to arrive, I have turned my thoughts back to our du Plessis ancestors!...I have found 10 separate trees of du Plessis, each with varying amounts of ancestral information..One I discovered had ancestry back to Ubald on the du Plessis line, but much more on spouses leading back over thousands of years, & forward (du Plessis) (in France) to practically the present day..Last entry was a death in 1952...It's strange that all the information I have found on different du Plessis branches (Excluding ours!) it seems they remained in France, & prospered..The Wars of Religion, & later the French Revolution did not see them moved!!!....Which leads me to wonder about why our Jean Prieur felt he had to leave..Searching amongst the trees I found, they all seemed to have remained as aristocrats, which again makes one wonder why the need to find an occupation such as surgery...There is just one tree I found which "could" have possibilities...Unfortunately it does not give the du Plessis ancestry, beyond the one name...It is a Jean du Plessis, who was an advocate, so had to work for a living!..The only other details it gives are that he died before 1580..Sadly it doesn't give his place of residence, but I would hazard a guess as to the Pas de Calais region..His wife was an Anne de Calonne de Courtebonne, Dame d'Alencon, which is in the Pas de Calais area..There is a Lot of information about her ancestors going way back, which I have been looking at.She married after Jean to a Michel de Rousse...Unfortunately it gives no information on children of Anne & either husband..But doesn't say were were none..The tree finishes there...It is possible that our Jean Prieur could've been a grand child or great grand child...It is also possible that Jean Prieur & his parents were born in Flanders, rather than Poitiers,as usually stated..On the South African trees his father's name is stated as Charl, which is not a French name. Had he been born in France, he would have been called Charles..I have seen the name Charl in lots of South African trees; they seemed to prefer Dutch names to French.. I assume it is a Dutch name?..To move from Northern France to Flanders is just a skip & a jump...Perhaps this branch did find religion & move...Obviously this is entirely speculative...but I'm just looking for where there might find some clues or possibilities to our ongoing conundrum...I'll leave this with you....Let me know what you think...Best Wishes, Cuzzin Danielle. PS If you received a silly email about diet tips this Monday, it wasn't from me...My email account was hacked into ..another friend had the same thing a week ago...anyway, hopefully, it's all now resolved.
Danielle, PLEASE please post this in the discussion connected to him; it’s so useful to have this kind of thought process for us all to go back to when we’re focussed on the issue.
I had thought Charl was a French name – given the no of Afrikaans South African Charls, even today (The Afrikaans LOVE their French connection J). A masculine form of Charlotte, perhaps? Afrikaans doesn’t use the soft ‘sh’ sound for ‘ch’ except for direct translations from French – like champagne -; and I assume this is because the Dutch don’t use it? So it doesn’t sound Dutch to me – (which version is the harder sounding ‘Karel’ - we have lots of those in SA too), or German – (which, I think would be ‘Karl’.) It would be an interesting indicator if it were only a South African name usage.
The spelling of names on disembarking in SA is well-known to have been often written down according to the nationality/ language of the cleric recording them in Cape Town – especially if the individuals themselves were functionally illiterate. But the Afrikaners also enjoy inventing new names by combining old ones – so this might be a really old example of that trend. & I seem to recall Charl being born on the boat?
The SA duPLessis are French Huguenots – so their reason & timing for leaving is definitely religious – PLEASE read the duPlessis-Marly Huguenot diary that I’ve put on the Discussion. It is so interesting. From what ypu’re seeing, this might be the only duPLessis branch that goes against the high placed Catholic individuals in the rest of the family (who stay on and prosper – not surprising, if they’re connected to the Cardinal Richelieu.)
Actually, if you’re ok with it, I think I’m going to post your and my emails together on the Discussion – you never know what it jogs in other people’s thought processes.
My husband Tony pointed out the Charl is the French pronounciation of Charles - so that may have been how it came to be spelled 'phonetically' on arriving in SA.
The main thought that is pertinent here imo is that very few duPlessis EXCEPT the Huguenot branch appear to have left France, from what Danielle is seeing - which makes it more likely that Jean Prieur is a relative of this duPlessis/Marly/deLienard couple
I have gone through the posts above and have also gone through the Du Plessis book by Dr. Coetzee one more time. I can confirm that Jean Prieur's parents have never been documented or mentioned by anyone. The only thing we have are the notes (scribbled) by Amalia du Plessis, that have been published by Dr. Coetzee. These notes are the source for the theory regarding Francois II's minor children that were placed in the care of de Grailly in 1556.
In a nutshell, all options and theories are on the table for consideration.
Just a thought, what is known about the name Prieur? This is perhaps a good starting point as it is a unique and distinguishing characteristic.
Alexander is right - any connection btw Jean duP & the duP's in France is purely speculative at the moment. BUT. Here's a thought. The spelling of names back in those days was not important nor was it taken seriously. This is clearly seen in old S.African documents. If you arrived in the Cape and your name was Charles (pronounced Sharl) the Dutch person who wrote down your name in the register would have written Karel because that was the Dutch spelling of the name. Also - there is an interesting section on surnames in France in the 1500's in the Memoires. Surnames should also not be taken seriously because the children often took their father's title as opposed to his surname. What IS Phillipe de Mornay's actual surname? Is it de Mornay or is it du Plessis-Marly or is it de Lienart? Some branches of the family may have decided to use Mornay, others may have just called themselves du Plessis. The way I understand it - Plessis was a place name so all these people were "So-and-so from Plessis". There could have been hundreds of people, all unrelated, all from the same place (Plessis) who now call themselves du Plessis and we think they are family, but they aren't. In the Memoire, Phillipe's elder brother is called Pierre de Buhy and Phillipe is Phillipe du Plessis-Marly (not de Mornay). Neither of them are known by their surname - de Mornay. I guess what I am trying to say is that perhaps Jean du Plessis was not in fact, a du Plessis - his surname could have been something else? So he may have been Jean de Homme from Plessis which became du Plessis as time went on. I know I may be confusing things, but lets think out of the box! There! And you all thought you could have a nice peaceful weekend!
Have found a website referring to a Joachim de Grailly, Sieur du Plessis who was married to a Louise Prieur. I dont believe in co-incidence. In 1556 the minor children of Francois duP & Francoise de Charge were put under the curatorship of Joachim de Grailly. This would be Jean & Guillaume, who then both emigrated to S.Africa. Jean's son & grandsons had the Prieur as a 2nd name. Perhaps its because his foster mothers maiden name was Prieur? This is all laid out in a french document on the internet. Bertrande de Charge was married to a Rene de Grailly & she also had something to do with fostering Jean & Guillaume.
Update by Private User: Sharon..My email has been hacked into again, so I'm going to have to sort that out..Found out a little bit more about that Jean du P. I sent you info about..He was Seigneur de Biache Les Perrine..I know Biache is in the Pas de Calais, so that seems to bear out my theory that he lived in that area..Also his wife, Anne, did have children with her second husband Michel de Rousse..But the line I found continues with the children of that line, so still don't know whether there was issue from her marriage with Jean...Will keep looking!
Yes - Nicola - I put that note on the French naming traditions at the bottom of the Huguenot project: http://www.geni.com/discussions/109371?msg=793500 because of the duPLessis case.
I found the following on a French forum. It refers to a Joachim de Grailly, Sieur du Plessis and a Louise Prieur. The date 1655 is almost 100yrs after the date the minor children of Francois II and Francois d Charge were placed in the care of the OTHER Joachim de Grailly in 1556. Not certain how to understand this and would also like a source for this info.
Au cas où certains membres du groupe seraient intéressés, voici
quelques baptêmes relevés à Lurais.
Enfants du couple composé de Mellaine PERRIN, maître chirurgien, et
de Fulgente de GRAILLY, tous baptisés à Lurais (36) :
1. Charles le 22/09/1655 (P : Joachim de GRAILLY, ecuyer, sieur du
Plessis / M : damoiselle Louise PRIEUR) ;
2. Françoise le 05/09/1656 (P : Paul PERRIN / M : Françoise Du
3. André le 26/10/1658 (P : André de GRAILLY, ecuyer / M : damoiselle
Françoise de GRAILLY) ;
4. Pierre le 15/02/1661 (P : Pierre de LAUSPITAL ; M : Françoise
GERINÉ ??) ;
5. Marguerite le 07/10/1662 (P : Louis PERRIN / M : Marguerite de
6. Catherine le 26/11/1664 (P : Silvin RUTAULT / M : damoiselle
Honorée de GRAILLY) ;
7. Marie le 24/12/1666 (P : René BOUTET, procureur / M : damoiselle
Gilberte de GRAILLY) ;
8. Anne le 07/01/1669 (P : Charles PERRIN / M : Françoise PERRIN) ;
= les parrain et marraine sont le frère et la soeur aînés de la
9. Louis le 14/05/1670 (P : Louis de MARANS, écuyer / M : Catherine
de RICOUX) ;
10. Jacques le 25/09/1676 (p : Jacques de La JAILLE, écuyer /
Marguerite de GRAILLY).
j'ai pensé qu'il nous restait une piste pour réussir à identifier Elisabeth/Isabeau de GRAILLY, épouse de Pierre de MAUVISE, comme étant bien la fille de Paul de GRAILLY, seigneur de la jouatière, et d'Isabeau de Lestang (mariés le 12/01/1596) : en effet si tel est le cas, elle a deux frères clairement identifiés dans Beauchet-Filleau, Charles époux de Françoise du PLESSIS [le père de : Joachim de GRAILLY qui se marie à St-Génitour du Blanc en 1670 avec Sivaine RABAULT, d'Antoinette qui épouse François LE PICARD DE PHELIPPEAUX que l'on rencontre sur le site de Gildas de MASSE, de Gilberte qui épouse le 13/11/1695 à Lurais Louis DE PINDRE [information donnée par J. BOIREAU, et de Louise de GRAILLY qui épouse à Néons-sur-Creuse le 02/05/1675 René REGIS, même source que précédemment !] et Jacques époux de Louise PRIEUR.
En cherchant à LURAIS et Néons les actes de décès des frères (avant 1670 pour Charles ; avant 1672 pour Jacques], des belles-soeurs [entre 1670 et 1675 probablement à Néons pour Françoise du PLESSIS ; aprsè 1672 pour Louise PRIEUR], on trouvera peut-être laprésence d'Elisabeth/Isabeau de GRAILLY avec un lien de parenté ou d'un enfant d'Elisabeth présent à l'inhumation.
Même piste avec les baptêmes éventuels des enfants (nommés ci-dessus) de Charles et de Françoise du PLESSIS et notamment de Joachim dont Beauchet-Filleau dit qu'il a été baptisé à Néons le 22 mai 1645 !
Quelqu'un at-il déjà dépouillé à Lurais ou Néons ?
Les archives sur place remonte-t-elle aussi loin ?
Faut-il aller aux A.D. ?
The post that Alexander has here is what I looked at on the internet - I didnt pick up that the dates were out by 100 years though. Damn. Back to sq1 again. But i definitely found a website that said (in french) that the minor children of francois & francoise in 1556 were put into the custody of Joachim de Grailly. There is also a Jacques de grailly - maybe the two names were confused & it was jacques who was married to louise prieur and joachim who fostered the duP boys. Gawd. And my french isnt that good - i copied & pasted the thing I found into google translate.
referring to alexandersabove - i dont actually know what it is? It isnt a list of the children of Mellaine Perrin & Fulgent de Grailly because in brackets next to each name it shows who the pa & ma were. So what is it a list of? I will google this weekend and see what else I can find. I have a work mate who is french - I will ask him if he can translate some of the stuff I find. I am sure his translation will be better than google translate! I wil also try check out the info that Danielle has posted about jean du P de bianche les perrine. Interesting stuff!
http://www.geni.com/discussions/110757?msg=801970 - discussion on Jean Prieur's descendant's line being muddled here. Or at least, at a quick glance it seems that way. Won't you guys keep an eye out for what might be wrong here, while you're researching this line?
Yes OK. I am starting more & more to think that our Jean's surname was not du Plessis. It was probably Prieur, so I am trying to find on that family. Not having a lot of luck but there definitely were a fair number of Prieurs in that area of france back in the 1500's and 1600's. If there was a farm named Plessis-marle in S.Africa back in 1688, then there must be some connection to that family - people didnt just make up names out ot their heads. There were Marais's as well in that area of france at that time. He was perhaps a Prieur from Plessis, hence the name. I would so love to see Amalia du Plessis's research! Somebody must have this? She went to France to research the family, so she must have had documents of some kind. Onwards and upwards!
Hi Nicola. Yes the farm Le Plesis Merle lies in Drakenstein in the Cape and was the farm allocated to Charles Marais (PRog) in 1688. It still has the same name and is a lovely wine fine with the best export wine. The wine is also available in Switserland were the master wine maker of the consortium know the owner of the farm, lives.
I have visited the farm a few times and there are still a lot of memorials from the original owners. The photo on the profile of Charles Marais (SV/PROG) I took there. It appears on the main gate/wall.
They were not family of Jean Prieur du Plessis. That is my line from my paternal grandmother and I have a book on the family dating way back to the eraliest time. A very well sourced book. The only child of the prog. that had Prieur as a secnd name was the eldest son.
I hope this helps a bit. The Marais family from Plesis Merle came from a little town near Paris in France, called Plessis Merle. My son had the priviledge to visit there when he stayed in Geneve.
Judi - Thanks for that fascinating info. So you don't think it is connected to the Plessis Marly estate that we're researching to do with Phillipe duPLessis Mornay? (am I getting the names right Nicola? I'm losing track :-) I had wondered if we hadn't stumbled onto a Marais/Mare connection back in France?
Juds, you don't perhaps have access to Amalia du Plessis' research?
Thanks Judi - yesterday (at work...shhh dont tell my boss...) I sat and drew a map of France and marked on it the location of the towns involved here - Poitier is south west fairly near to the coast & quite far from Paris, Longvillier is just south of Paris, Buhy is about 100km north west of Paris and Sedan is way up north on the border of Belgium. If Jean duP came from Poitier, that is nowhere near Longvillier (where Plessis-Marle is). OK, so here is a Q - does anyone know what the word "Plessis" means? I suspect it means "place". I found a doc yesterday recording the death of Charles Marais, who was killed by a hottentot in 1689. The doctor looking after him was our Jean Prieur. The article says that Jean P was 62 at this time, which means he was born in 1627 and not 1638 like we thought, but I guess this might be incorrect. Our interest in the Plessis-Marle people was because of Phillipe du Mornay & his possible connection to the mysterious Judith-Ann du Mornay. All the info we have on Judith-Ann stems from Amalia's research, doesnt it? Damn, we really need to track down her stuff! Would love to know where she got her info from - she couldnt have just made up that name. But since Judith-Ann isnt mentioned anywhere in any of the french articles I have read, maybe she was illegitimate or that wasnt her real name or maybe it was misspelt totally. And the only mention of her husband Jean duP is where they say he was sent into the foster care of joachim de Grailly in 1556 - after that there is NO mention of him anywhere. In fact I cant even find the joachim de grailly who fostered him aside from the original mention of him in the racinehistoire article I read & the one sentence in that french book. Grumble grumble.