Descendentes de luso-flamengos

Started by George J. Homs on Monday, August 6, 2012
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If I may add, some nice trivia... it seems Christoforo Colombo was emprisoned on the Açores when he sailed back after 'discovering' America. They seem to have thought he was a pirate! (they released him very quickly). Just imagine that you had all those Flemish settling the island years BEFORE the Americas were explore. This was THE outpost/stopover on the quest for the New World. I'm sure our Brazilian and Portuguese friends know all this so well from their history classes, but, obviously, the fact that all those people from the Low Countries were there is really new to me! :-)

I'm sure the Brazilian and Portuguse friends know, but now I know too.
Interesting George! Yes every day we learn (in every way :-)).
5.000 to go?

I know nothing! :-)) How can I help? Give me a task...

On Columbus, or Colon, the story also goes that he was imprisioned on board upon returning from his 3rd voyage because the Spanish realized he had lured them into exchanging a few despicable islands in the Caribbean against part of what is now Brazil. Salvador Zarco, his real name, is said to have worked as a spy for the king of Portugal in that regard. Of course, that story cannot be confirmed "ma si non è vero, è bene trovato..."

Another day and again learned something. Thank you Marcos.
Lucia, lol you funny lady, I know, but what do I know is the question... Not much!
I did not even know Columbus real name was Salvador Zarco, oops...
4.000 to go George? I would help but am not good (at all) with Portuguese names - as Lucia knows :-) - otherwise I surely had helped.

Salvador Zarco is a theory, but a very strong one supported by a lot of material evidence (one of my fathers-in-law, Private, a historian, has validated the research - so I can hardly say otherwise ;-) )

Aha I just read it.... thought how stupid of me not to know his name was (probably) Salvador Zarco, now I know I could not have known that... but again a (little) bit wiser.... as in learned.. :-)

Hello all !
I have just created a project to start tracking the 'Governantes dos Açores'... http://www.geni.com/projects/Governantes-dos-A%C3%A7ores/12538
In my Geni experience, it's extremely helpful to have a project to which you can attach profiles. I think it's impossible to attach all the people that ever lived on the Açores, but I think that by tracking the rulers we can get a long way. By focusing on them, we can discover new family links. Many of them are strongly engrained into local families.
I have my own 'peculiar' way of doing this :-) I attach the profiles to the project, PLUS I insert the link to the profile in the list on the project page. It's a bit of work, but if really helps!
I currently limited the list to the period before the 'Regëncia'. We can expand later on. Also, if you have better ideas about how to present this, please feel free to contribute!
I hope you'll enjoy the quest :-)

If I may add... this is where I drew the list from, and I've taken a few small liberties to make the list easier... http://pt.wikipedia.org/wiki/Anexo:Lista_de_governantes_dos_A%C3%A7...
This Wikipedia list can help to cross-verify with the right profiles, AND to add the Wikipedia link to the 'about me' in the profile.

Thanks to your kind notice, Jennie, I could step-back until the first cousin Kristin Sigurds: Princess Kristin Sigurdsdatter, of Norway
but I was not able to find our common great grandfather and mother of that ascendancy. Can you do that for me, please? Our trees are so, so large that now I'm mostly saving the direct lines. Greetings, Deisi

Deisi,

Phillipa, countess of Luxembourg

is my 21st great grandmother
and her sisters daughter

Beatrix van Vlaanderen "Beatrix van Dampierre"

is your 19th great grandmother.

So I must be muchhhhhhhhhh older than you are... lol

LOL why I did not write her sister, Isabelle de Luxembourg is your 20th ggrandmother Deisi... we will never know... but it is true... :-)

This could be a good test to see how we're shaping up on connections...
This is the profile of the current president of the Regional Government of the Açores: Carlos Manuel Martins do Vale César, Presidente do Governo Regional dos Açores
His Azoran ancestors go back to the early beginning, so it would be interesting to see if you're getting a close connections.
My own connection is far (21st cousin, once removed), and it takes a path through the Bettencourt immigrants on the Açores.

That's a VERY nice one, Lucia :-)

Lúcia and George,
I have some data regarding Azorean Raposos, but I'm not sure they all have the same root. A few are connected to the Azorean military, merchant and political elite who has stayed in the Islands, while the simpler ones have emigrated, contributing to the onflow towards Rio, Santa Catarina and Porto Alegre. I'll keep watching this discussion until we get to the 18th century, ok?

Hello Marcos!
I'll scan the research of André Claeys for Raposo. I suspect that there will be a few references, but not major ones, as he has focused on direct descendants of the Flemish immigrants (but, obviously also on those why married very early into those Flemish families).
I think there are some interesting 'loose ends'. How about the origin of 'Paim', like in 'Paim da Camara'? The origin is in an English notable immigrant called Payne. I also know that w'l have a huge challenge with the origins of 'Brum', 'SIlveira', 'Rosa'... They all married into the families that ARE well documented, but there needs to be more research into the origins of some families. We're reaching into the 14th-15th century, so it's very difficult. But, there are many leads. I think we need to get some Flemish 'in the field' motivated to dig into the paper archives :-) André Claeys says that the information is there - it's just a tremendous task! The main Flemish families HAD to be of some level of nobility.
Today, I stumbled upon the 'Caupers'. Physicians in the service of Anna of Austria in Lisbon, but one of them took the governance of Flores and Corvo - with lots of descendants that were born there in the 19th century.
Marcos, i'll point you to the Raposo when I find them :-)

Thanks Jennie, but you must agree that both of our roots hardly can be older than Adam / אדם / آدم . "my" 72nd great grandfather. At least according to this completly wrong Geni's line:
Adam of Eden Greetings, Deisi

This book helps explain the early populating of Azores:

http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B002IKKMI0/ref=as_li_qf_sp_asin_tl...

These families were not allowed to leave Azores until end of Portuguese Inquisition in 1821. My wife's paternal ancestors, ranchers on Big Island of Hawaii, are descended from these children. As you can see, they fled to a location far, far, away from Azores once freed. As whaling grew in popularity, and harvesting cod for bacalau grew into a staple industry, Azores developed a fishing-centric economy,

As for Columbus - he traveled with navigational tables calculated by Rabbi Abraham Zacuto. I have always wondered why an exploratory mission necessitated a navigational table to assist in finding a route to anywhere at all. I have been researching the tale of a misguided ship that returned to Porto, Portugal, with the latitude and longitude of the island if Hispanola. Thus far I have not found credible documentation to allow me to write a book about this tale...but it is a tale told in many circles of that period.

Jaim, have you been able to trace some jewish lineages to Azoran roots? I think I have come across a few references that suggested some 'cross-marriages', but I haven't looked into it (probably because I couldn't hook the people into existing Geni profiles).

Hi George,

I'm not certain what you mean by cross-marriages. 400 years of forcibly coerced conditions will compell people to do just about anything to leave. The Azores are not a very hospitable place isf a person was accustomed to the lush pastures of Santarem, or the coastal farming areas near Coimbra, Portugal.

My wife's paternal ancestors were resident in Sao Migel, Azores, and Sao Tome for roughly 400 years. The families with whom they intermarried were:

Pereira
Carvallo
de la Silveira
daJesus
daSousa
Alves
Morgado

There is a large cluster of these Azorean families in Hilo, Hawaii, and another on Island of Kauai. They were recruited to move to Hawaii to operate the sugar cane plantations, pineapple farms and ranching becuase of thier predisposition for Island living. I proved difficult to take people from large continents and plant them on Islands....they rarely last long enough to be useful.

These same families have extended family in Philippines and Indonesia.

Hello Jaim. Yes, with cross-marriages I meant intermarriages.
You're mentioning your wife's ancestors in Sao Miguel. Can you point me to the profile? Like that I can do some additional digging around there to see if we have all family-members (and related non-Jewish families) nicely lined up :-)
I had indeed seen something about Hawaii. I think we should also think of the very large numbers of Azorans that went to California (an estimated 100,000+ people!)
The link to da Silveira gives a link into Flemish ancestry. But, all the others have paths to those Flemish, too. We're getting a very nice mix of origins here!

BTW, my mother in law was a native of Santarèm, so I've been there a few times - but it looks to me that the pastures on the Azores are 'lusher' :-)

Hi George,

Here is my wife's grandmother... If you swim upstream you'll see all the others.

Let me know how I can help - you have my attention :)

J

Os meus Silveiras:

Os Silveiras descendentes de WILHELM VAN DER HAEGEN usam: um escudo partido, sendo o primeiro em ouro , uma árvore de duas copas de verde assente num contra chefe do mesmo e o segundo de negro, um leão de prata armado, lampassado e coroado de ouro.

Provem esta família de WILHELM VAN DER HAGEN, membros da nobreza flamenga que passou aos açores.
Em 1466, D. Duarte doou as ilhas para sua irmã D. Isabel de Borgonha, duquesa de Flandres. Dando início assim, pelos flamengos que se recuperavam da Guerra dos Cem anos, a colonização oficial das ilhas açorianas.
Os Silveira são de origem Flamenga, descendentes de WILHELM VAN DER HAGHE OU HAEGEN ou VANDARAGA ou CASMACA, que no fim do século XV, juntamente com sua mulher MARGARIDA DA ZAMBUJA, passou do Condado de Flandres , flagelada pela Guerra dos Cem Anos, ( casa de Maestrich) para uma das nove ilhas Flamengas (como inicialmente ficou conhecido o arquipélago) e depois ARQUIPELAGO DOS AÇORES (nome que alude às águias de asa redonda que fugiam aos bandos quando as embarcações portuguesas se aproximavam da costa).
Por volta do século XV o nobre Flamengo WILLIAN VEM DER HAEGEN aportou, vindo de Flandres e de Portugal continental, na ilha de Fayal, com seus bens, família, escravos, oficiais mecânicos de todos os ofícios e suas mulheres em dois barcos . Não se adaptando à ilha de Fayal, esteve na ilha Terceira e na das Flores e com licença da infanta D. Brites, viuva do infante D. Fernando, GUILHERME VAN DER HAEGEN foi povoar o TOPO, a ponta oriental da ilha de S. Jorge

A primeira referência tida como histórica relativa a ilha de São Jorge data do final do século XV .
À mulher de Guilherme Casmaca chama Frutuoso de Margarida da Sabuya; outros, de Azambuja; outros Sabina, Sabuia, e Sabuio. A senhora Margarida supõe-se flamenga. E sendo raro então que as mulheres usassem apelido diferente do que usavam seus maridos, não teria ela simplesmente o do homem com quem casara, que traduzido em português era o de Silveira?
Com efeito, é graficamente semelhante Sylveyra com Sabuya, ou Zambuja, dando lugar ao erro de leitura ou de interpretação, a má ou duvidosa caligrafia do referido apelido?

O nobre flamengo William Van der Haegen, (mais tarde este nome foi traduzido para o português como SILVEIRA), dando este nobre origem a todos os Silveiras de são Jorge e a grande parte dos que pelos Açores e pelo mundo se espalharam. Tendo criado no Topo uma povoação, veio nela a morrer, já com o seu nome traduzido para Guilherme da Silveira.
O nome VAN DER HAEGEN traduziu-se para o português no vocábulo correspondente que era SILVEIRA, e que nada tem a ver com os SILVEIRAS de Portugal, tendo-se generalizado na ilha de S. Jorge em todas as classes sociais. Alguns conservaram a denominação original porem rapidamente deturpada em VANDRAGA.
VAN DER HAEGEN, obteve de el-rei D. JOÃO II, de que fala uma justificação de nobreza, a confirmação do brasão d´armas da família VAN DER HAGHE que seus ascendentes usavam em FLANDRES.
Obteve de D. João II carta de confirmação de armas que haviam os seus ascendentes usado na Flandres e a sua descendência traduziu o nome para português para o vocábulo correspondente, que era Silveira. Alguns, no entanto, conservaram a denominação primitiva, rapidamente deturpada em Vandraga ou Vandaraga. É uma família que se espalha por todas as ilhas Açorianas.

(Fonte: http://www.villamaria.com.pt/silveira1.htm)

Obrigado, Eduardo, muito útil. Vou levar essa para casa esta noite e comparar com as minhas notas ... então, discutir com o pai da minha esposa. Você sabe se Guilherme van Haegen estava relacionada com a do Courtnay de Flandres?

Hello Eduardo!
Let me give some new info on that, based on the recent research by André Claeys. One of the puzzling things was why "van der Haegen" would translate into something like "Casmaca". By digging into the Bruges archives and checking with the archives on the Azores, the answer was found (I've entered this already on Geni).
Willem van der Haegen was in fact called Willem de Kersemakere, and he was married twice - first to a "van der Haeghen" and secondly to Margarida de Zambuja (the latter probably also of Flemish origin).
On the Azores, the children of the first marriage were recorded as van der Haeghen/da Silveira - in line with Portuese customers to give precedence to the mothers name. But, a child with Zambuja was named Casmaca. Casmaca is derived from 'de Kersemakere'.
There are actually primary documents in the Bruges archives that show that Willem was 'de Kersemakere'.
It doesn't change anything, really - except that this new information allows people in Flanders to look for 'de Kersemakere' rather than van der Haeghen :-)

If I may add, about the 'brasão d´armas'. The original coat of arms of Willem disappeared in a fire of his house on Terceira. The arms known for da Silveira are mentioned in 1578, and were awarded by D. João II probably to a son of Willem. Based on the dates, they were awarded AFTER Willem's stay on Terceira (after his retirement he left Terceira and went to Sao Jorge). (Unless new research comes along :-) )

...is there any reason to stretch the sound of Williams's last name to Karzmeijer - a Germanic form of Kazimir of Poland?

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