Lack of a Terminal SNP from Deep Clade Testing

Are you on GedMatch, Fred? Helps to clarify matches, particularly one's with share 3-block mutations. My father was I1* from Sor-Trondelag Norway. Here are our GedMatch numbers to check to see if we are related. If we are, we have an enormous tree to study, thanks to cousins Anne Marit Berge and Oystein Garnes, not to mention my esteemed cousin, Lars Lund, of the Norway genealogical Society from Oslo. Good luck and drop us a note if we match. Sounds like you have a very complicated genome like we all do...
Best wishes, Michael

Michael,

It appears that we are 17th cousins through the my mother's side of my family and your mother's side of your family. We may be closer related if your father and I have similar numbers.

Fred

Back to my original question... Does anyone have an opinion as to what it means for someone to test negative for all terminal SNPs beyond those identified with I1 M253? Because my closest matches within the entire FTDNA database are 20 and 23 steps from Finland and Norway respectively, it has been suggested that my paternal line might originate from a nordic population that has not been widely tested. Any opinions regarding candidate populations?

Technically, it just means that it is not possible to be more specific with the current level of knowledge. Some I1 men developed further mutations. Most did not ... at least not any mutations that have been identified yet.

Without additional mutations, your ancestors could conceivably belong to any of the I1 populations. The only way to identify candidate populations is what you're already doing -- comparing STR step mutations. However, using STR mutations is a fuzzy system at best, because it depends on making assumptions. Most notably, the assumption that each "event" involved only a single mutation.

The new Genographic 2.0 is expected to flood us with new SNPs, but it's not entirely clear how accessible that new data will be, and how it would translate into commercial testing.

https://genographic.nationalgeographic.com/

I'm flagging Private User, Private User and Rolf Harold Langland, all of whom have considerable expertise with yDNA -- although not specifically with I1 (as far as I know).

Hi Frederick Carl Day. I see that you're in many projects on FTDNA which is a good start. As Justin pointed out, I1 isn't my area of expertise, but I believe there are three major SNP that you can test for Z58, Z63 and DF29. These aren't covered by the standard Deep Clade test offered by FTDNA because they haven't been added to the official FTDNA tree yet. You can see them in the draft tree here though.
http://ytree.ftdna.com/index.php?name=Draft&parent=39157351

What these SNP means is a question for someone more familair with your clade. My suggestion would be to email the admins at the yDNA Haplogroup I: Subclade I1 project and get their opinions.
http://www.familytreedna.com/public/yDNA_I1,yDNA_I1/default.aspx

As just also mentioned, Geno 2.0 will be releasing some 10k new SNPs which will bring greater definition to the whole tree. FTDNA has said it will offer a discount to FTDNA member who wish to purchase the test, which currently costs $200.
http://www.yourgeneticgenealogist.com/2012/07/national-geographic-a...

I hope this helps.

Victar, you and several others seem to be converging on the same plan of attack. There seems to be little doubt that I belong to I1 M253, and my understanding is that I should be expected to be DF29 negative. So, the starting point is to test DF29. If DF29 is negative then test Z131; otherwise test Z8 and Z63. This sounds like computer programming pseudocode, as I am typing this. Also, the Geno 2.0 may make sense to test if there is a good discount.

The other huge question for me is where my line originates, since I do not match any Days (other than a first cousin who also tested) and have no close matches to anyone else. Maybe the Geno 2.0 test will help with that?

Thanks.

Fred

To put some closure to this discussion, a FTDNA project administrator asked Ken Nordtvedt to take a look at my test results. He was able to identify several test kits (different haplotypes) which seem to be related, but before surnames were used. Scandinavia was identified as the probable place of origin. Altogether, 14 haplotypes out of 5 thousand or so were identified with the 11 at DYS492. All but one had 14 at DYs385a. The recommendation was to test DF29 first, before testing other SNPs.

Thanks to everyone who participated in this discussion.

My 1st cousin is I1-M258/M258/M170/M168/M89/SRY10831.1
In the same order I found the M258 & 253 are I & I1.
then, M170 is I
M168 is CF and M89 is F.
M258 is found in Anatolian Greeks
M253 in both Anatolian and Provence Greeks
SRY10831.1= BT
I found that our male line origins are Western European going back into Egypt & the Middle East. We are 100% Anglo Saxons and AS3 @ 90%.
We are Ionian Greek, Phoenician Greek, Smyma Greek and trace to the Viking God Kings, Sammi, Norse, Finn, & Ultra Norse, Ulvungar Dynasty, Iberian, Buryats & Mongols.
When I entered my cousins STR's into Whit Athey's Predictor I got:
R1b=100% with fitness score of 29.
70 markers were entered. Next we got Q=18; R1a=13; L=15; J2a=11 and I1b2a=13; I1b1=11; I1a=14; H=9; E3b=16; and E3a=10
From what I have read and followed on numerous sites as stated by some experts, the E haplogroup is the Jewish Priest lineage.
My cousin is DYS492=12
DYS385a=12
If you wish to compare my cousins Y dna with your Y dna check out Y Search.com and my cousins search # is: KCV4E
My cousin also has numerous negative SNP's. I have been trying to find out what that means.
On December 24th Genebase.com will be back up on-line with their updated database. This is where I found much information.
The mother of King Louie XVI of France was Princess Maria Josepha of Saxony. I wondered where we got some of our French markers. Makes sense if we are 100% Anglo Saxon. King Louie is Y dna G2 and P287 he descended from Robert the Strong. Louie is G (M201) which is a branch of haplogroup F=(M89) which is what my cousin has in his dna.
G2a (P15) is Ergelding in Bavaria, southern Germany and of the Merovingian dynasty 7th century said to be associated with "U" SNPs.
G is found highest in Madyars of Kazakhstan, east in northern China, 10% of Israel Druze are G's and in USA 10% of Jewish males are G haplogroup. (we are Christian, so no clue at present as to when we got the Jewish dna)
Hope some of this helps.
Linda

Linda, I started this discussion shortly after I first started DNA testing. I have not learned a great deal about my paternal line other than it appears to be Norse and in a somewhat unusual clade of I1 that has been given the name MAV11. I think there are around eight members identified in MAV11, and my cousin and I are two of the eight. There are specific STR markers that define MAV 11, and one must test at least 67 markers to confirm MAV11, The peculiar aspect so far is that L69+ seems to be the terminal SNP, and until fairly recently researchers did not know L69 was associated with I. The other positive SNPs are DF29 and CTS6364. Your cousins value of DYS492=12 is not consistent with MAV11, but our lines could have similar origins.

My FTDNA kit number is 229706 and my cousin's is 234534, if you are interested in taking a look. My Y-search number is GX4WW.

Thanks.

Fred

My cousin has tested 91 SNP s

If you'd like to get further in your DNA-testing I'd recommend getting the BigY-test from FamilyTreeDNA and then getting further analysis on those results from YFull. This will give you a full complement of Y-SNPs for further research.

I am considering the Big Y as a genetic match tested with Full Genomes and is having his results analyzed by Y-Full.

After BIG Y and Y FULL analyze, I am I1 Z63 V68 Y16434

I am new to DNA testing but show Y-DNA of I-M253 so am connecting with others who share that marker. Following is a copy of a message I sent to Dewey James Smith (Dewey James Smith) after we had initial dialogue.

Dewey James Smith (Dewey James Smith)

In your tree I see the I-M253 marker which you and I both carry back from you through Dewey Beverly Smith (c.1923), Dewey Smith (1898-1983), Cecil Smith (1872-1948), Brantley Smith (1835-1919), Nathan Smith (c1790-1853), Stephen Smith (1769-1846) and Nathan Smith of Georgia (c1731-c1811) Nathan Smith....

In my tree the I-M253 marker goes back to my 6th great grandfather Judah Allen (1696-1771) Judah Allen who was from Capa Cod, Massachusetts. I suspect that he or his father were adopted into the Allen family since the I-M253 marker is more prevalent in another family in the same community - folks who spelled their names variously as Holloway, Holley, Holway and Hawley.

It appears that any convergence of our lines comes from a much earlier time, probably in Europe.

I am copying this message to the I-M253 discussion group in case it stirs any comments by those who may know other carriers of I-M253 who could have links to either Nathan Smith or Judah Allen or other pre 1700 folks.

I also notice that you and i are both descended from the Butler family but I see no DNA markers posted for anyone in that family..

I have been tested to go deeper in the Y-DNA. Since we are both descendants of Judah Allen, and I am M253-DF29-Y2592-CTS6364, then I expect that you have the same markers. FTDNA are now testing down to Y17395, but I don't expect the results for another month. For your info., I am Kit 29318.