Jacques de Savoye, SV/PROG - Ancestry of Jacques de Savoye, SV/PROG

Started by Delia Robertson on Wednesday, April 24, 2013
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4/24/2013 at 9:51 PM

I am curious what records exist proving the 'ancestry' of Jacques de Savoye as ascribed to this profile. Events and relationships are entered but there don't seem to be any sources for this information or even links pointing to what and where the source might be accessed. Am I missing something?
Delia Robertson

4/24/2013 at 11:30 PM

I will take a look too as soon as I get a moment (I see I've hypertexted the son on the Huguenot Project). Jacques de Savoye, b2

Calling all our researchers to check their resources.

4/25/2013 at 12:46 AM

Ahhh, this is the profile I emailed you about.

Yes, sources PLEASE PLEASE anyone?

4/25/2013 at 1:02 AM

Private User found this in a previous discussion, which may or may not be related to this one: "Sharon I am very glad to have discovered this Discussion on Jacques de Savoye ..As far as I have been able to discover, he was indeed born in 1636 in Ath..The de Savoye family were a very prominent family in Ath, & a cousin line which remained there, were later created Barons by the King of Belgium..But to return to Jacques, one "myth" which I would like to set aside, & which is repeated on many SA sites, is that of his fervent Protestantism, & how he was being pursued by the Jesuits who were out to murder him...If that was the case, why did he marry my ancestor, Christine Madeleine du Pont, on 4th July 1657, in the CATHOLIC church in Ath!....From what I can gather, he was a wealthy merchant who traded goods to South Africa...At some point, he made some bad business deals, & was "stuck" in South Africa..I think he did mean to return to Flanders later, but poor health kept him in SA..I believe he himself concocted the stories about being in fear of his life...Maybe it was helpful to him when dealing with others of a more fervent Protestant persuasion...Who knows...But myths do grow around individuals, as I know some of us, are only too aware of.......I don't know if what I have written here, has any relevance to the discussion, but if not, maybe Sharon could start another one regarding the de Savoye family, as she has done with the du Plessis.....At least there is a lot more information, with the de Savoye family!!"

4/25/2013 at 1:04 AM

I am packing for the Eastern Cape right now - where I hope to have connectivity - but if I don't, I'll be back in 2 weeks. Please keep researching and don't take my silence for disinterest.

Private
4/25/2013 at 2:04 AM

I will have a look later. Enjoy the Cape. Jou gelukkige derduiwel.
Love nig Juds

4/25/2013 at 4:16 AM

Dankie baie :-)

Private User
4/25/2013 at 9:54 AM

Re. Jacques de Savoye...the one who went to S.A.?...I must admit some of the above remarks were written after I had read a talk given at the Huguenot Society (...which I still haven't managed to track down!..Will keep trying!...).I do know that he was originally a Catholic, but at some point, after his first marriage he changed to Protestantism...Most of the family who remained in Belgium stayed Catholic from what I can gather..Everything I have read.. & I admit, have concluded in my own mind.. has lead me to think he was a rather hot tempered character..He also made some good & some poor business deals..I'm afraid I did start to form an opinion about his character after the things I read about him...Being an ancestor, & finding out information on that ancestor, maybe one starts to feel more connected......The facts that I wrote down from sources are that Jacques married Christine Madeleine du Pont on 4th July 1657, at St. Julien's church Ath, before witnesses: Julien de Savoye (father), Benedict du Pont, & Francois la Haye..Recorded baptisms for children at St. Julien were daughters: Catherine 29.9.1663, & Jeanne Julienne on 13.7.1665..On 24.3. 1662, he was registered as a Burger at Leiden,..His Guaranter was named as Benoit du Pont..By 1684, he had obviously changed to Protestantism, as he was named as a Godfather to his niece Marie de Savoye, daughter of his brother Jean, & wife Julienne du Pont, who was baptized in the Walloon church in Leiden...Jacques left Ath & established himself as a merchant in Ghent..He had a business with his son in law André du Pont, trading silks, pelts, drink, & food..They traded from Cadiz to the Baltic.Six of his children were born in Ghent: Jacques, bap. June 1669,Julienne (died at 2 weeks), Louise bap. 16.6.1671, Marguerite Thérese 4.9.1672, Barbiére Thérese 20.5.1674, Chrétien 27.6.1676, Suzanne 27.1.1678(died as a baby..Buried in Ghent 30.9.1676)...Whilst carrying on a business & raising a family in Ghent, he maintained civic duties in Leiden, & retained interests & property in Ath..He moved to Sas-van-Ghent in 1686...At the same time, his son in law became bankrupt...By this time his first wife Christine had died..(It is not known when or where.)..Shortly after this in 1687 he left with his second wife, & (some) children :Marguerite Thérese (15 years), Barbiére (13), Jacques (9 months) & 3 servants, who were brothers called Nortier. for SA...

Private User
4/25/2013 at 10:56 AM

I don't think these are sources. One is looking for documentary sources and this is the great shortfall of geni.com that documentary sources are not cited. When other family trees are cited we must be sure that they are also supported by documents. It is only actual first hand knowledge of people you have known or their informant has known in their own lifetime which can bypass the need for documentation.

An appeal from my mind and heart.

Private User
4/25/2013 at 12:33 PM

This wasn't from a family tree Wendy...It was part of a talk given at the Huguenot Society of Britain & Ireland..The speaker who delivered the paper had done his research...I merely wrote down what had been written for my own interest & knowledge at that time. I did bookmark it for future reference, but can't unfortunately find it now, & my attempts to find it again on Google have come to naught...I have a vague recollection the author of the piece was an Eric du Plessis..As I was only interested in the findings for my own interest, I didn't spend the time documenting it more fully..As I live on the outskirts of London, I am thinking of joining the Huguenot Society which is based in central London, some time soon, so maybe then I can provide more citations, etc...I am only a novice at this "game", so perhaps I should refrain from contributing in future, unless I have all the correct citations & sources to hand......Please let me know!...

4/25/2013 at 12:40 PM

Dagse Cuzzins
Vermoedelik het ek al vantevore hierdie saak geopper,my bron se dat Jacques se moeder Jeanne van der Zee was...die saak oor die ''mite'' oor die bedreiging van die Jesuiete kan ons maar aanvaar want die konneksie met die Rooms-katolieke kerk behoort tog sekerlik nou teen die tyd vir mense baie duidelik te wees! Maar sou iemand nie bewus wees nie die nuwe pous is 'n erkende Jesuiet! My bron is die navorsing van Dr A Turton.
Groete

Private User
4/25/2013 at 10:54 PM

Hi Sharon

I was going to ask you about this one. After my wife lost her connection to Charlemagne through the error in the du Plessis family tree some time back , I was surprised to find this connection back to Charlemagne through Jacques de Savoye about a week ago. It will be a pity if it's another "du Plessis" type scenario

Regards

Erik .

Regards

Erik

4/27/2013 at 12:11 AM

Danielle, did you write down that entire De Savoye ancestry at the Huguenot society event or did you get it elsewhere?
Also, the events you added from sources as stated above - you need to identify the sources, and where you consulted them for the data to carry any weight.
With regard to change of religion, in the case of Huguenots that happened as a consequence of the persecution of protestants.
Linda: Not sure what relevance is to this topic that the pope is a Jesuit, nor has it ever been a secret.

Private User
6/10/2013 at 7:32 AM

Hi, I have recently discovered that I am a descendant of Jacques de Savoye through his daughter Marguerite. Having scanned through their family tree posted on Geni there appears to be uncertainty about a Michiel? and a Claude? de Savoye. As Jacques de Savoye, Comte de Romant appears to have had only one child,a daughter, Francoise Louise de Savoye, it would then not have been possible for his male line to have continued as is shown. He was the son of Louis I de Savoye and Anne de Lusignan, Princess of Cyprus. The Comte de Romant had a brother, Phillippe II, duc de Savoye, who had a son named Michem de Savoye circa. 1443 and 1503 as well as a daughter called Claudine de Savoye. Perhaps the South Africa line descends from this Michem de Savoye?

Roni Mangold

6/10/2013 at 11:18 AM

Are there enough people interested in researching here to set up a Work Project to pool resources validating / debunking lines?

Private User
6/10/2013 at 1:03 PM

I would hope that there are as I have been led to believe that I am a descendant of the early Kings of France, Bourbons, and Cyprus via arrows starting with my name. Perhaps the people who have added this information could verify their sources?

Private User
6/16/2013 at 1:17 PM

I am interested, as this profile can send quite a few south africans down the wrong path if he turns out not to be related to the royal 'de Savoy's'.

Private User
6/16/2013 at 1:49 PM

"Beste Loffie, M Boucher het van die inligting, oor die ouers van Jacques de Savoye, uit die SA Biografiese Woordeboekgebruik gemaak vir sy boek French Speakers at the Cape: the European background.

Ek het in 1993 van 'n genealoog in België se dienste gebruik gemaak wat deur die Katolieke Doopregister 1582 - 1796; die Katolieke Huweliksregister 1616 - 1796 van Ath, België asook deur die "Civil Records" van Ath 1582 - 1795 en 1652 - 1674 gewerk het. Jacques de Savoye is op 29 Januarie 1636 gedoop en nie gebore nie. Hy was die tweede kind van Julien de Savoye, gedoop Ath 26 Oktober 1602 en Jeanne Dureau/Durieau

Julien de Savoye was die sesde kind van Jacques de Savoye en Jeanne van der Zee/da la Mere Jeanne Dureau was 'n dogter van Jacques Dureau/Durieau en Marie Ghersouille.

Ek weet nie of die De Savoyes Rooms Katolieke of Protestante was nie. Jacques de Savoye was 'n Protestant toe hy en sy gesin hulle aan die Kaap kom vestig het. Hy was een van die afvaardiging van 5 Hugenote wat op28 November 1689 onder leiding van Pierre Simond vir goewerneur Simon van der Stel beosek het om 'n eie gemeente en kerkraad vir die Hugenote te versoek.

Vriendelike groete

Juna Malherbe Franschhoek"

6/17/2013 at 5:13 AM

Thank you MICHELLE. There was a branch of Protestant de SAVOYE most probably in DAUPHINE South East France.
On Google there are quite a few genealogy lists of those ancestors.
A path maybe JULIEN DE MEDICIS married PHILIBERTE de SAVOIE daughter of PHILIPPE II de Savoie and his second wife : Claudine de Bresse.
( The first wife was Marguerite de BOURBON 1438 + 1483 ) PHILIBERTE had a brother from the same mother : PHILIPPE III duke of NEMOURS,X Charlotte de Longueville d'Orléans whose son was JACQUES de NEMOURS 1531 + 1585 X Anne d'ESTE 1551 + 1607.

6/17/2013 at 5:25 AM

This JACQUES duc de NEMOURS inspired a novel "" Princess of Clèves"
and in 1960's a film with Jean Marais and Marina Vlady.
Jacques was known to be very good looking and had a lot of success with ladies.

6/17/2013 at 5:36 AM

Jacques de Nemours de Savoie became governor of the LYON region S.E.France. He and Anne d'ESTE had several children : Charles Emmanuel,duc de Nemours 1567 + 1595 at 28 years. Then Henri Ist and others of which I don't have the names. Could this be a link ?

Private User
6/17/2013 at 5:38 AM

Thanks Barbara...
So the best way to trace our Savoys would be to find any documentation for the parentage of either Jacques de Savoye en Jeanne van der Zee/da la Mere. You live in Belgium. Would it not be possible to find some resources for these two people in the local archives in Ath? Just thought I would ask! :)

Private User
6/17/2013 at 1:20 PM

http://www.moensdehase.be/genealogie-folder/fic130.html#22105

Voici une courte notice, relative à cette famille, qui serait d'origine française et aurait émigré en Belgique à l'époque des guerres de religion. Borel d'Hauterive, dans l'Annuaire de la noblesse française de 1873, rattache la famille de Savoye à la famille noble du même nom fixée au XVIe siècle en Dauphiné. Celle-ci portait d’après l’Armorial général de Rietstap : d'azur à trois colombes d'argent; devise : « Sabaudi semper stant ». Toutefois la filiation ininterrompue, n'est établie de façon authentique que depuis Mathieu ou Mahieu de Savoye, échevin de la franche ville, terre et sart de Chièvres (Hainaut près d'Ath) de 1547 à 1557. De son second mariage avec Lusette Barbieur il eut :
I. André de Savoye, époux de Sibille d'Olivier, dont il eut Martin qui suit
II Martin de Savoye, né en 1575, époux de Marie Allart, dont il eut entre autres
IV. Etienne de Savoye, né à Ath, le 23 mai 1612, épousa Anne de Beaussard, dont:
V. André de Savoye, Homme de fief de la Cour du Hainaut, né à Ath, le 12 avril 1648, épousa Pétronille Patou, dont :
VI. Martin-Guillaume de Savoye, né à Ath, le 29 décembre 1678, épousa MarieJeanne Mens, dont sept enfants; parmi ceux-ci :
VII Charles de Savoye, né à Ath, le ler juin 1708, échevin d'Ath de 1752 à 1758, et en 1764, directeur des postes d'Ath, épousa Marie-Françoise Matton; dont : Julien-Ghislain de Savoye, échevin d'Ath, directeur des Postes d'Ath par lettres patentes du prince de Tour et Taxis, et Jean-Nicolas-Joseph, qui suit VIII. Jean-Nicolas-Joseph de Savoye, né à Ath, le 29 novembre 1741, décédé à Namur, le 6 novembre 1818, officier à l'intendance de LL. AA. RR., le Duc et la Duchesse de Saxe Teschen, à Bruxelles, (le duc était gouverneur des PaysBas). Il épousa, Marie-Catherine Goffaut, puis Anne-Dieudorinée Gérard. Du premier lit sont issus :
1° Françoise, épouse de Charles Bourdon du Saussey, directeur des contributions du département de la Mayenne en 1817;
2° Joseph-Ignace, qui suit IX;
3° Léopold, cadet des dragons de la Tour, tué en 1793 à la défense de la Citadelle de Namur; du second lit :
4° Julien-Eugène, directeur des postes à Namur, y décédé en 1855, époux de Marie-Lucie-Josèphe Cossée del Pret, fils de Louis de Gonzague, écuyer, et d'Elisabeth Nève. De ce mariage : a) Gustave de Savoye, commandeur de l'Ordre de Léopold, époux d'Elise Hubert, qui lui donna entre autres enfants, Robert-Gustave-Firmin-Marie-Jehan de Savoye, général-major, qui obtint le 19 juillet 1922, concession de noblesse; b) Marie-Félicien-Achille-Ghislain-Louis de Savoye, capitaine au régiment belge de l'impératrice Charlotte du Mexique, chevalier de l'Ordre de Notre-Dame de Guadalupe, épousa à Bruxelles, le 28 janvier 1869 (mariage dissous) la baronne Léonie-Charlotte-Dieudonnée de Garcia de la Véga.
IX. Joseph-Ignace-Adrien de Savoye, directeur des postes à Ath, y épousa Rosalie-Josèphe Nève. Dont entre autres : Théodore qui suit X et Charles de Savoye, né à Ath, le 4 août 1820, lieutenant-général d'infanterie, officier d'ordonnance de Son Altesse Royale le duc de Brabant.
X. Théodore-Jules-Joseph de Savoye, né à Ath, le 10 avril 1817, décédé à Liège, le 19 mars 1885, substitut du Procureur du roi à Mons, puis professeur de droit à l'université de Liège. Il épousa à Tournai, le 26 septembre 1850, Justine-Aimée Bariseau, dont Eugène, Auguste, qui suit XI.
XI Eugène-Auguste-Aimé-Joseph de Savoye, né à Liège, le 6 octobre 1852, décédé à Soignies, le 7 janvier 1916, avocat, ancien commissaire de l'arrondissement de Soignies et sénateur. Il obtint, le 30 septembre 1910, concession de noblesse, et épousa à Soignies, le 11 juin 1877, Jeanne-Marie-Thérèse-Ange-Hélène Baatard. De leur union, les cinq enfants qui suivent :
1° Albert-Théodore-Simon-Jean-Joseph, écuyer, ingénieur des mines, volontaire de guerre 1914-1918, capitaine I. F. M. de réserve, membre du sénat et ambassadeur extraordinaire de Sa Majesté le Roi des Belges, Commandeur de l'Ordre de Léopold, Grand-Croix de l'Ordre de l'Aigle d'Esthonie, etc., épousa à Bruxelles, le 5 juin 1906, Ella-Ida-Bertha van den Hove d'Ertsenryck, née à Louvain, le 17 janvier 1885, fille d'Auguste et d'Olympe de Heusch. Il mourut le 23 janvier 1960, sans enfants;
2° Charles-Léon-Justin-Joseph, écuyer, ingénieur, né à Soignies, le 5 septembre 1880, épousa à Maulde le 29 août 1910, Gabrielle-Marie-Carmen-Cécile-Mauricette-Ghislaine Cossée de Maulde, fille du vicomte Armand et d'Elodie Ruyant de Cambronne, dont une fille Monique-Eugénie-Marguerite-Ghislaine-Marie, qui épousa à Soignies, le 12 juin 1933, Henri-Michel-Idesbalde-Valentin-MarieJoseph-Ghislain le Maistre d'Anstaing;
3° Jean-Adolphe-Marie-Joseph, écuyer, licencié en sciences commerciales et consulaires, décédé célibataire;
4° Rose dite Rosette, épouse du baron Maurice Forgeur; et
5° Franz -Albert-Omer-Joseph, écuyer, docteur en droit, volontaire de guerre 1914-1918, décédé sans avoir contracté d'alliance.

Private User
6/17/2013 at 1:58 PM

We will need to find accurate sources to tie Jacques de Savoye all the way to Jacques de Savoie, comte de Ramont.

The information on Jacques de Savoie, Comte de Romont, seems to show that he only had one child. I have not found any reference to a 'Michiel de Savoie/Savoye'. Perhaps anyone else can help here?

6/18/2013 at 7:27 AM

Michelle sorry to ask do you speak French ? The text you put there says the de Savoie come from Dauphine and flew from the religion wars in16th C.and established in Belgium , therefore it ncould be possible that they were born in France I believe that version. We only have tracks of MAHIEU de SAVOIE.
In Afrikaans further up it is said that a genealogist already did the research for JULIA MALHERBEresearcher of the HUGUENOT SOCIETY IN S.A.
What we are looking for is the link to MAHIEU de SAVOIE which is in France.

Private User
6/18/2013 at 10:03 AM

Hi Barbara, unfortunately not! South Africanised family with a very French surname :)
Yes, I am also looking for this link, but that was the only mention of Mathieu and Lusette I could find.
It seems that the research was done up until Jacques de Savoye. Nothing after that has been verified as yet...the search is on!
Kind regards, Michelle

Private User
6/18/2013 at 12:33 PM

Hope this may be of some help... My understanding is that Savoye was originally situated in Italy until the border line was changed at some stage to include it into French territory. de Savoye means "of Savoye" - "of the House of Savoye". The question is not whether the South African descendants of Jacques de Savoye are related to the original de Savoye family but by which male line they are descendants of. de Savoye indicated their royal house and was not a surname as such.

6/19/2013 at 8:34 AM

Nestled at the foothills of the Simonsberg, lies Vrede en Lust, home to the wines produced by the 2007 Woman Winemaker of the Year, Susan Erasmus.
The history of Vrede en Lust is a story of passion, vision and resurrection, which goes as far back as 1688, when Flemish merchant Jacques de Savoye arrived at the Cape with the French Huguenots.
Since then, Vrede en Lust has changed hands a number of times and in 1996, when the Buys family became the 17th owners, they embarked on a program of renewal to realise the exceptional winemaking potential of the land.
Vrede en Lust is a family owned and managed wine business – a tribute to its noble roots and a magnificent addition to the South African wine industry.

Vrede en Lust, derived from the Dutch “Peace and Eagerness” is a modern wine farm, building on a 320 year old foundation. Its vision is to become one of South Africa’s best loved wineries by delivering a level of customer experience that exceeds all expectations.
The farm is located in the centre of the Cape Winelands, on the eastern slopes of the Simonsberg, and nestled in between the top notch Rupert de Rothschild (Fredericksburg) and Plaisir de Merle estates. The vineyards are classified under the Wine of Origin ward Simonsberg-Paarl, as part of the Paarl Wine Region. Vrede en Lust produces more the bulk of its grapes on its three vineyards and sources the balance from top quality grape growers in the region.
Vrede en Lust was established by the French Huguenot, Jacques de Savoye in 1688. De Savoye immediately started improving the 60 morgen (55 Ha) of land that starts on the Berg River Valley floor and runs up the eastern foothills of the majestic Simonsberg mountain. More than 10,000 vines were planted by 1691, which grew to 80,000 by 1780.
The Buys family purchased both farms in 1996, uniting the original farm once more, and set up restoring a number of the historic buildings and replanting the farm to noble wine grape cultivars. In 1998 Dana entered into a partnership with his brother Etienne, who has since overseen the vineyards and building of the winery. The new winery was completed in time for the 2002 harvest and today, Vrede en Lust is a working wine farm and accessible to the public.

http://www.vnl.co.za/our-estate/about-us/

6/19/2013 at 8:45 AM

Jacques de Savoye

Concerning the de Savoye family, it can be noted that while the connection between Jacques de Savoye and his daughter, Marguerite (Margarethe or Margo), and the Dukes of Savoy has not been traced, Jacques was originally a subject of the King of France, and as such would only have used a surname incorporating the aristocratic prefixde if he actually belonged to an aristocratic family.

It can safely be inferred that he was in fact descended from the family of the dukes.
What is known about Jacques is that he lived a the French town called Aeth, and that in 1687 he was living in Ghent, in Flanders. He was a Huguenot merchant known for his zealous defence of his beliefs and for inviting itinerant Protestant pastors to conduct services in his house. For this he earned the hostility of his Catholic neighbours and was pursued by the Jesuits. (The Edict of Nantes was repealed in 1685, and it is likely that he fled France at this time.) At least one attempt was made on his life.
His first wife, Christine du Pont, bore him nine children, of whom six survived to adulthood. Following her death in 1686, Jacques went to live in Sas van Ghent, just across the Dutch border in Zeeland.
While in Sas van Ghent in 1686-87 he married Marie-Madeleine le Clerq from Tournai, in Hainault. They moved from Sas van Gent to Middelburg, where he immediately made plans to join a party of settlers heading for the Cape of Good Hope.

After France conquered Aeth he fled to Gent in Flanders in 1667. Outspoken Calvinist. Moved as widower from Gent to Sas in Zeeland in 1686. In 1687 he and his family went to Middelburg, Zeeland and left for the Cape in 1688 per the "Oosterland".Du Plooy.paf: Jacques de Savoije gebore 1636, Aeth, Hainaut (Vlaandere), beroep: Sakeman, boer, kaptein, trou(1) 4 Jul 1657, in Aeth, Vlaandere ?, Christiana du Pont, sterf bef 1686, trou(2) 1686, Marie Madeleine le Clercq, gebore Doornik, (Tournai?), België, begrawe: ?? Mei 1721. Jacques sterf ?? Okt 1717, Kaapstad, begrawe: ?? Okt 1717.Jaques de Savoye is in Aeth, Hainaut (Vlaan dere) gebore. Hy was een of ander sakeman daar, en het goed gedoen. Verhuis na Gent in 1667. Hy was bekend as ietwat van 'n dweper, en het die redelik verdraagsame owerhede in Gent geirriteer. Hy word ook beskryf as 'n oortuigde Calvinis, wat baie vir sy geloof gely het. Blykbaar het sy ywer vir die Protestantse geloof tot gevolg gehad dat hy deur die Jesuete vervolg is, en daar is selfs sprake van 'n moordkomplot teen hom. Trek van Gent na Sas van Gent in 1686. (Daar is later in die Kaap geskinder dat dit was omdat hy in Gent bankrot gespeel het. Hy het die plek verlaat omtrent dieselfde tydstip dat sy skoonseun (moontlik sy vennoot) bankrot gespeel het en na Leiden vertrek het). Jacques se broer Jean de Savoye het ook in Leiden gewoon. Daarna trek hulle na Middelberg. Vertrek op 29 Jan 1688 met die "Oosterlandt" na die Kaap. Saam met Jacques was sy tweede vrou Marie Madeleine, twee van sy dogters uit sy eerste huwelik, Margaretha (17 jaar) en Barbe-Therese (15 jaar), baba Jacques (9 maande ) en skoonma Antonette Carnoy. Hy bring ook die 3 Nourtier-broers saam as sy knegte. Hulle arriveer op 25 Apr 1688. In die Kaap was hy 'n boer (hy het die plaas Vrede-en- Lust in Drakenstein besit), 'n slawe-eienaar, heemraad en selfs Kaptein van die Drakenstein-militia. Ouderling in die kerk. Jacques se geldsake wou steeds nie vlot verloop nie. Hy was in die skuld by die V.O.C. en ander, o.a. dominee Pierre Simond en was bekend daarvoor dat hy "traag was om rekeninge flink te vereffen". Desnieteenstaande beskryf ds. Francois Simond van die Gereformeerde Kerk in Flaandere hom as 'n eerlike man met baie ywer vir sy geloof, en verklaar "sy lewe is 'n waardige voorbeeld van reinheid en heiligheid in soverre dit moontlik was in die plek waar hy hom bevind het, waar afgodery hoogty gevier het." Ook goewerneur Van der Stel skryf in 'n brief aan die Kamer van Delft oor hom: "Jacques de Savoye en sy gesin is 'n voorbeeld van ywer vir al die vlugtelinge en uitgewekenes, en dat hy as Heemraad aangewys is n.a.v. sy vaardighede. " Interesant genoeg was hy later aktief in die Vryburgers se stryd teen goewerneur W.A. van der Stel, en is vir 'n tydperk in die Kasteel toegesluit. Hy word beskryf as 'n opvlieënde man, wat maklik aanstoot geneem het. Hy het die plaas "Vrede en Lust" in Drakenstein besit.Verhuis met sy vrou en haar ma terug na Nederland in 1712 as afslagtarief-dekpassassiers op die Samson. (Hy moes waarskynlik sy hele fortuin verloor het). Hy laat in die Kaap 3 getroude dogters en een seun, waarskynlik Philippe Rudolph, agter. Lg. het sonder erfgenaam gesterf. Dit is bekend dat Jacques by die Walloonse kerk in Amsterdam aangesluit het in 1714. Tog keer hy weer terug na die Kaap in 1716. Daar sterf hy op die rype ouderdom van 81 en is begrawe in Oktober 1717.June Malherbe: Jacques de Savoye was blykbaar kort van draad en het gereeld met ander gebots. Sy grootste botsings was egter met die Hugenote-predikant, Pierre Simond. Aanvanklik was die twee goeie vriende en dit is nie duidelik wanneer en waaroor die onmin begin het nie. Simond het De Savoye onder sensuur geplaas en hom belet om die Nagmaal te gebruik. Sy rede was dat gerugte die ronde gedoen het dat De Savoye in Gent bankrot gespeel het. Destyds is dit as iets onterends beskou wat rede was vir kerklike tug. Die Kerkraad van Stellenbosch het De Savoye versoek om tydens 'n kerkraadsvergadering sy onskuld te bewys, maar hy het nie opgedaag nie.Geen bewyse kon gevind word dat De Savoye bankrot gespeel het nie, maar 'n mens kan uit sekere feite aflei dat dit wel waar was. De Savoye en sy skoonseun, André du Pont, was vennote in die linnebedryf in Gent. Du Pont is bankrot verklaar en dieselfde tyd het Jacques de Savoye Gent verlaat en hom in Sas van Gent gaan vestig. Toe sy broer Jean op 5 Januarie 1692 in Leiden oorlede is het Jacques hom nog baie geld geskuld (dus het hy finansieel swaar gekry).'n Mens vra jouself af waarom Jacques de Savoye hom nie ook in Leiden gaan vestig het nadat hy Gent verlaat het nie, maar verkies het om na die Kaap te emigreer. Die HOIK het die vryburgers aan die Kaap aan bande gelê wat handel en boerdery betref. De Savoye was 'n handelaar van beroep en nie 'n boer nie - hoekom het hy verkies om op 'n hoë ouderdom te begin boer? (Heel waarskynlik wou hy van sy finansiële probleme wegkom).Die geskil tussen De Savoye en Pierre Simond bereik op 19 November 1690 'n hoogtepunt met die doop van die kind van Marguerite-Therese de Savoye en Christoffel Snyman. Simond het geweier om De Savoye as doopgetuie en peetvader van die kind te aanvaar. Dit was destyds die gebruik dat die doopouers die predikant voor die doop moes inlig wie die getuies sal wees. Snyman het Simond op 4 November 1690 besoek, maar Simond was Kaap toe om daar te preek. Volgens Simond was dit een van die redes waarom hy De Savoye nie as getuie wou aanvaar nie. Die ander rede was twee briewe wat hy ontvang het, die een van meneer Boudaen, Direkteur van die Kamer van Zeeland en die ander van meneer De Jancourt, predikant van die Franse kerk te Middelburg, wat dit onder sy aandag gebring het dat De Savoye briewe met beledigings teenoor Pierre Simond na Rorretdam en Middelburg gestuur het. Die De Savoyes het 'n groot kabaal in die kerk opgeskop. Jacques, sy vrou en dogter het begin raas en skel op Pierre Simond en gesê dat hy net die teenoorgestelde doen van wat hy preek en hom gedreig dat hulle hul sal wreek.Goewerneur Simon van der Stel het hom met die saak bemoei en Pierre Simond in Mei 1691 vermaan om die saak met De Savoye te skik. Simond moes ook voor die Politieke Raad verskyn om sy saak te stel en 'n ondersoek is ook na sy lewe laat doen. Selfs die groot kerkraad bestaande uit dié van die Kaap, Stellenbosch en Drakenstein, plus drie besoekende predikante is op 15 Junie 1691 byeengeroep om die geskil tussen die twee op te los, maar kon nie daarin slaag nie.Jacques de Savoye is op 29 Januarie 1636 te Ath in die provinsie Henegouwe in die destydse Spaanse Nederlande gebore en was 'n seun van Julien de Savoye en Jeanne Dureau. Hy is op 4 Julie 1657 in die Katolieke Kerk te Ath met Christine du Pont getroud. Sy is gebore op 4 Augustus 1635 en een of ander tyd voor 1686 oorlede. Sy was 'n dogter van Denis du Pont en Anne de la Haye.Jacques de Savoye en Christine du Pont was die ouers van:1. Jacqus, gedoop 26.12.16592. Catharine, gebore 21.9.16633. Jeanne Julienne, gebore 13.7.16654. Agatha-Therese, gedoop 1.7.16675. Jeanne, getroud met André du Pont6. Jacques, gedoop Junie 1669, jonk oorlede7. Julienne-Louise, gedoop 16.5.1671, oorlede twee weke na geboorte8. Marguerite-Therese, gebore Gent 1672; trou met Christoffel Snyman; hertrou met Henning Viljoen9. Barbe-Therese, gedoop 20.5.1674, oorlede 1729; trou met Christiaan Ehlers; hertrou met Elias Kina10. Chrétien, gedoop 27.6.1676, begrawe 30.9.167611. Susanne, gedoop 27.1.1678, jonk oorledeJacques de Savoye is in 1686 hertroud met Marie-Madeleine le Clercq, die dogter van Philippe le Clercq en Antoinette Carnoy en hulle was die ouers van:12. Jacques, gebore 1687, oorlede 1717; ongetroud13. Jacquette, gedoop 12.4.168914. Aletta, getroud met Pierre Meyer15. Philippe-Rudolph, gedoop 29.9.1694, oorlede 1741; ongetroudEk weet nie of die De Savoyes Rooms Katolieke of Protestante was nie. Jacques de Savoye was 'n Protestant toe hy en sy gesin hulle aan die Kaap kom vestig het. Hy was een van die afvaardiging van 5 Hugenote wat op 28 November 1689 onder leiding van Pierre Simond vir goewerneur Simon van der Stel beosek het om 'n eie gemeente en kerkraad vir die Hugenote te versoek.Vriendelike groeteJuna MalherbeFranschhoekBeste Loffie,M Boucher het van die inligting, oor die ouers van Jacques de Savoye, uit die SA Biografiese Woordeboekgebruik gemaak vir sy boek French Speakers at the Cape: the European background.Ek het in 1993 van 'n genealoog in België se dienste gebruik gemaak wat deur die Katolieke Doopregister 1582 - 1796; die Katolieke Huweliksregister 1616 - 1796 van Ath, België asook deur die "Civil Records" van Ath 1582 - 1795 en 1652 - 1674 gewerk het.Jacques de Savoye is op 29 Januarie 1636 gedoop en nie gebore nie. Hy was die tweede kind van Julien de Savoye, gedoop Ath 26 Oktober 1602 en Jeanne Dureau/DurieauJulien de Savoye was die sesde kind van Jacques de Savoye en Jeanne van der Zee/da la MereJeanne Dureau was 'n dogter van Jacques Dureau/Durieau en Marie Ghersouille.Ek weet nie of die De Savoyes Rooms Katolieke of Protestante was nie. Jacques de Savoye was 'n Protestanttoe hy en sy gesin hulle aan die Kaap kom vestig het. Hy was een van die afvaardiging van 5 Hugenote wat op28 November 1689 onder leiding van Pierre Simond vir goewerneur Simon van der Stel beosek het om 'n eie gemeente en kerkraad vir die Hugenote te versoek.Vriendelike groeteJuna MalherbeFranschhoekFrom: "Richard Ball" To: "Alta Roux" Subject: [GenForum] die de Savoyes en Skoonma CarnoyDate: Monday, 21 April, 2003 12:19 AMBeste Alta,Maar nou sê Lucas dat André se Stamouersblad sê dat skoonma Antonette Carnoy saam met die gesin hier in SA aangekom het - maw, Antonette Carnoy was M M le Clercq se ma, en neem my dogter se matriargale lyn met nog een geslag terug? Wat was A Carnoy se man se name dan gewees - weet iemand dalk?M.M. Boucher, French Speakers at the Cape; The European background,University of South Africa, 1981, bladsy 264The former merchant Jacques de Savoye who, with his second wife Marie-Madeleine le Clercq, his mother-in-law Antoinette Carnoy, his children Marguerite-Therese and Barbe-The-rese by his first marriage and a baby Jacques, reached the Cape in 1688 aboard the Oosterland. 122 Savoye was sent out with a warm encomium from the Rotterdam chamber of the Dutch East India Company as a staunch Calvinist who had suffered for his beliefs.(123)Jacques de Savoye was born at Ath in Hainaut in 1636, the son of a father of the same name and his wife Jeanne van der Zee.(124) Not therefore a Frenchman by birth, but a native of the Spanish Netherlands, he came of a family which perhaps had its roots in the Cambresis, where the name was known in the sixteenth century.(125) Savoye evidently prospered in Ath, where he lived for many years. When he left the town he possessed houses, land and investments there, the management of which he placed in the hands of a fellow-merchant Jean Henrichant.(126) It was probably at Ath that he married his first wife Christine du Pont, whose family came from that town.(127)bladsy 267Savoye's first wife had died by 1686 and it is possible that he met his second wife at the Sas. Marie-Madeleine le Clercq of Tournai was the daughter of Philippe le Clercq and Antoinette Carnoy.(141) Her mother, then a widow, became a member of the Walloon church in Amsterdam on May 5, 1686. She does not appear to have been in easy circumstances as she was provided with help in kind from the relief funds of the church on December 11, 1686,(142) receiving a camisole, the gift of Philippe de la Fontaine.123. C 416, Inkomende brieven: Kamer Rotterdam, Dec. 23,1687, ff. 1031v.-1033; FRANKEN, 'Franse vlugtelinge', IV,Die Huisgenoot, X, 211, April 2, 1926, p. 21.124. G.C. DE WET, 'De Savoye, Jacques', in DE KOCK et al.(eds), Dictionary of South African biography, III, p. 210.125. For a Moi'se de Savoye from the Cambresis in Amsterdamin 1586 see FWK: (De) Savoye.126. CJ 3023, Gemengde notarieele stukken, 1686-1700: May27, 1693, pp. 68-69 (CA); FRANKEN, 'Franse vlugtelinge', IV,Die Huisgenoot, X, 214, April 30, 1926, p. 17.127. Kerkelijke ondertrouw, 195, 1575-1710: Sept. 12, 1681(Gemeentearchief Leyden).141. BOTHA, French refugees, pp. 62; 85.142. PA 201, Archieven, 46b; 285k.(jammer, maar ek kan nie sien waarvoor PA staan nie!)Groete,Richard--Richard BallNorfolk, EngelandFrom: "Hugenoot Museum" To: Subject: [GenForum] Doornik, die De Savoyes en skoonma CarnoyDate: Tuesday, 22 April, 2003 4:45 PMBeste Alta,Lucas is heeltemal reg, Marguerite-Therese de Savoye, gebore 1672, oorlede 1742 was 'n dogter van Jacques/Jacobus de Savoye en sy eerste vrou Christine Du Pont. Hulle trou in die Katolieke Kerk te Ath in Vlaandere op 4 Julie 1657. Later woon hy in Gent, Vlaandere en nog later in Middelburg in Nederland waar hy 'n handelaar was.Jacques/Jacobus de Savoye is in 1686 met Marie-Madeleine le Clercq hertroud. Dit is interessant dat Jacques/Jacobus de Savoye telkens sy naam as "Jacobus de Savoije" teken, terwyl Marie Madeleine le Clercq haar naam as "M.M. le clerc femme a Jaque de Savoi" teken [miskien het die een Vlaams en die ander een Frans gepraat].Die De Savoye gesin bly vir my een van die interessante Hugenote-families aan die Kaap. Hoekom het hulle Frankryk en later Nederland, wat destyds sy Goue Eeubeleef het verlaat om hulle aan die suidpunt van Afrika te vestig waar daar geennoemenswaardige argiktuur, teater en infra-struktuur bestaan het nie. Hoe het die tienerdogters Marguerite-Therese en Barbe-Therese hulle hier aangepas ?. Hoekom is Marguerite-Therese met 'n Indiër (Christoffel Snyman) getroud ? Hoekom het Jacques/Jacobus de Savoye en ds Pierre Simond nie met mekaar oor die weg gekom nie ?'n Artikel oor Jacques/Jacobus de Savoye is in Bulletin 29 . 1991 - 1992 van die Hugenote Vereniging van Suid-Afrika gepubliseer, maar ons sal nooit werklik al die antwoorde op ons vrae hê nie.Vriendelike groete,Juna MalherbeFranschhoek.Terloops, 'n wynkelder op die plaas Vrede en Lust in Simondium is na Jacques de Savoye vernoem (ongeveer 2002)

Andre du Toitadded this on 2 May 2009

Jacques de Savoye comes to South Africa
JACQUES DE SAVOYE
HUGUENOT REFUGEE TO SOUTH AFRICA

Fleeing extreme religious persecution and seeking a peaceful and productive life, many Huguenots of French extraction flooded into countries surrounding France. De Savoye had been a successful and wealthy merchant at Aethe in present day Belgium and made application to the Lords Seventeen of the Dutch East India Company to bring a party to settle in South Africa.
He sailed with his family and retainers on the Oosterlandt, which left Middelburg in the Netherlands on the 29th January. 1688, and reached Table Bay on the 26th April, 1688. She had a most successful voyage of two months and ten days. She was a much larger built ship than the Voorschooten, measuring one hundred and sixty feet. She brought out twenty-four Refugees. In addition to the de Savoye party as detailed below by the late C C de Villiers, there were among the passengers, Jean Prier du Plessis of Poitiers, who had practised as a surgeon, and Isaac Taillefert of Chateau Thierry, a hat-maker, with their wives and children.

Transcribed from PROCEEDINGS OF THE HUGUENOT SOCIETY OF LONDON, Volume 5, No. 1-4, 1894-1896, Printed by Charles T. King, High Street, Lymington, 1898 NOTES ON HUGUENOT FAMILIES AT THE CAPE OF GOOD HOPEBY THE LATE C. C. DE VILLIERS, ESQ.
CARNOY, Antoinette, a widow and mother-in-law of Jacques DE SAVOYE, in Distribution List 1690. See DE SAVOYE.LE CLERCQ, Marie Madeleine, of Tournay, wife of Jacques DE SAVOYE, See DE SAVOYE.
NORTIER, There sailed in the Oosterland from Middelburg on 29th January, 1688:--Jean NORTIE (so spelt in the original) agriculturist; Jacob NORTIE ditto; and Daniel NORTIE, a country carpenter (boeren-timmerman) and his wife Marie VYTOU (also spelt elsewhere VITOUT.) These four persons are styled in the original as the ‘domestique’ of Jacques DE SAVOYE who came out in the same vessel.

DE SAVOYE; Jacques, of Aeth; Marie Madeleine LE CLERC, his wife, of Tournay; and their three children:--Margot (or Marguerite), 17 years old, Barbere, 15 years, and Jacques, 9 months old, together with Antoinette CARNOY, DE SAVOYE’S mother-in-law, sailed in the Oosterland from Middelburg on 29th Jan. 1688. In a despatch from the Chamber of Rotterdam dated 24th Dec. 1687, special mention is made of Jacques DE SAVOYE in the following terms:-- ‘By this opportunity there will proceed to the Cape to settle there as a Colonist one Jacques SAVOYE and his wife. He has been ‘under the cross’ (persecuted), and for many years an eminent merchant at Ghent in Flanders; where he has been persecuted by the Jesuits to such an extent, and where even his life was being threatened, that in order to escape from their snares, and peacefully end his days beyond their reach, he has resolved to cross the ocean as a Colonist and to take with him various Flemish farmers of the reformed religion, who have also suffered persecution, and for the same reason as that of SAVOYE leave their Fatherland. And because we know SSAVOYE as we have described him, we most willingly recommend him to your notice and request you to lend him a helping hand, and consider him in the light in which we have introduced him, hoping that for the furtherance of the intentions of the Lords Seventeen he will be an able and desirable instrument.’ (Rambles through the Archives of the Cape of Good Hope, by H. C. V. Leibbrandt, 1887.) Jacques DE SAVOYE ‘with wife and two children’ were among those who did not need any assistance from the Relief Fund 1690; and ‘with wife and three children’ among the Draenstein inhabitants 1692. he left no sons. His daughter Marguerite married before 1690, (1) Christoffel SNYMAN (descendants still living) and (2) Henning VILLION, son of Francois VILLION (or FIGNON) of Clermont. Barbere married (1) Christiaan ELERS (no descendants), and (2) Elias KIENA (no descendants). Aletta DE SAVOYE married Pieter MEYER, presumably Pierre MEYER the refugee.

De Savoye was given land as detailed below:-

Reference: Old Stellenbosch Freehold, Volume.
Grantee.
Description or Name of Farm (the latter designated by a number on the map).
Grant.

Remarks.
1:276
de Savoye, Jacques
Vrede en Lust, Simon's Berg 27
15.4.1694
granted 1688
1:449
de Savoye, Jacques
In Wagenmaker's Vallei 60
28.2.1698

de Savoye Immigration
1688

de Savoye Immigration
1688

6/19/2013 at 8:48 AM

de Savohttp://trees.ancestry.com/tree/4315595/photo/SLVXry1lXLfpf7zlAz_WUa... Immigration
1688
Ghent Harbour Jacque de Savoye
, Ghent, Flanders

ShaynevanRensburgadded this on 3 Jul 2012SLVXry1lXLfpf7zlAz_WUaxMNqnHUlpS0vD03wZtfkdLWWgY65mmUC0QFKGuE76W.jpeg

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