Martha Susanna Terrell (Waters) - Can we get real here?

Thanks for your post. Please help us help you by giving the list of correct vs. incorrect children, your sources, and your reasoning.

It looks like at least some of the issue there is simple duplication, which can be easily resolved through merging. It looks like you're a Pro member, so you can resolve the merges on the profile.

Not always! Pro members can only access profiles that they or their collaborators manage. If neither of those situations obtains, they're as SOL as Basic members.

There is a very high level of uncertainty about "Martha Susannah Waters Terrill", including whether her name was Martha, Susannah, or Martha Susannah - and who, exactly, her parents were. (Most sources have them as Unknown, but two or three agree on John Waters of London - who was emphatically NOT one of the Anne Arundel, MD Waters clan - and Ann Lloyd.)

She was certainly not the "Catholic heiress" with all the romantic trimmings that family legend made of her. Catholic, maybe - heiress, not likely. (St. Katherines-by-Tower, where her only named parents were born, was a slum district.)

She married William Richmond Terrill in 1690, per several congruent sources, and died in 1725 (this is a bit less certain).

She would have been about 23 when married, so might have about 25 years of childbearing if it didn't wear her out. Figure an upper limit of 10-15 children during that time, not counting possible multiple births.

It is just about certain that she was William Richmond Terrill's second wife, since several of his children have birth dates before 1690 - some of them well before.

Sorting out who bore which children is very tricky when many of them have no dates whatsoever.

Daughter "Mary" appears to be a duplicate and to belong to First Wife (Tree Match has birth date of 1687).

James/James Nimrod Terrill is a Tree Match and believed to be a twin (to John Terrill?), which helps a bit.

Joel/Joel Sr. looks like another duplicate, but no Tree Match this time. He was married at least twice, maybe three times.

And we're still over 20 children....

"Pro members can only access profiles that they or their collaborators manage."

not true. you have access to all public profiles connected to the big tree

Access, yes - ability to edit, very very limited. Pro users can NOT access the Relationships pages of profiles that they or their collaborators manage.

Which means, if you have messed-up relationships between profiles that *you do not manage* and *none of your collaborators, if any, manage*, there isn't a lot you can do to un-mess them.

"that they or their collaborators DO NOT manage"

oopsie!

Anyway - here's a plausible account of this generation, from http://freepages.genealogy.rootsweb.ancestry.com/~winsancestors/ter...:

The Colonial Terrells

Exactly when Richmond and Elizabeth settled in Virginia I do not know, but it would, of
course, have been before 1656 when Richmond Jr was born in New Kent County.
William, the head of our line of Terrells, was born in 1659. Jamestown, on the James
River, had been settled in 1606, Williamsburg in 1632, and Richmond in 1637.
New Kent County was chartered in 1654, so the area was not a wilderness at the time.
New Kent was established as a ideal port on the York River for the shipping of
tobacco, which tells us something of the business of the area. It is beautiful forested
country with rolling hills and large rivers and small streams. Richmond died between
1667 and 1683; he and Elizabeth are buried in New Kent County.

At some time, the Terrells became Quakers and the early family history is documented
in the local Meeting annals. Many of them remained Quakers and some returned to
the Anglican/Episcopal Church.

William married Susanna Waters before 1690 when
their first child, William Jr, was born. Susanna
was probably a relative of his mother, Elizabeth.
They had nine children, all of whom grew into
adulthood! Our line follows John, their sixth
child. All of Susanna's babies except Henry, their
fifth, were born in New Kent Co., but none of them
died there! Susanna was a Quaker.
William died in 1743 and he and Susanna are buried in
Hanover County which was their last home.
He was 84 years old.
The Children of William 1.0 TERRELL

1 William 1.0 TERRELL b: 1656-1659 in New Kent, VA d:
1743 in Hannover, VA
+Susannah WATERS b: in New Kent, VA m: Abt. 1688 in
New Kent, VA; she was a Quaker; d: in Hannover, VA?
2 William1.1 Richmond? Terrell b: 1690 in Caroline Co.
VA d: 1755 in Caroline Co. VA
+Elizabeth Lewis
2 Joel Sr Terrell b: 1692 in New Kent, VA d: 1785 in
Hanover, VA
+Sarah Elizabeth Oxford b: 1702 in Hanover Co. VA
m: 1716-1718 in Hanover, VA
2 Anne (Betty) Terrell b: 1695 in New Kent, VA
d: 1734 in Hanover, VA
+David Lewis Sr b: 1695 in New Kent Co, VA m: 1717
in New Kent Co, VA d: 1779 in Albemarle Co, VA
2 David Terrell b: 1700 in New Kent, VA d: 1759 in
Caroline Co. VA
+Agatha Chiles m: in New Kent?
2 Henry Terrell b: Bef. 1705 in New Kent, VA d: 1760
in Caroline Co., VA
+Ann Chiles b: 1709 in Caroline Co VA m: Abt. 1733 in
Hanover, VA d: 1740
*2nd Wife of Henry Terrell:
+Sarah Woodson m: 1744
2 John TERRELL b: Bef. 1706 in New Kent, VA
d: 1785 in Franklin, NC
+Sarah b: Aft. 1715 m: Abt. 1730 in VA
*Partner of John TERRELL:
+Elizabeth Harrison b: in VA? m: 1730 in Caroline Co.
VA d: Aft. 1785 in Franklin, NC
2 Timothy Terrell b: Bef. 1707 in New Kent, VA
d: 1763 in Orange, Chatham Co., NC
+Mary Martin m: 1725 in Orange, NC?
2 James Terrell b: 1707 in New Kent, VA d: 1772 in
Caroline Co VA
+Margaret w/ J Terrell m: 1729-1731 in New Kent, VA
d: 1772 in Caroline Co VA
2 Susannah Terrell b: 1711 in New Kent VA ?
+Thomas Wingfield
2 Mary Terrell b: 1713 in New Kent, ?
+Matthew Mills m: Abt. 1734

I think we need to be really careful about placing Susanna in this family. I would really like to see the citations for the primary sources used in this determination. The reason I am questioning is that there are Lewis, Chiles, Woodson,, Terrell and other families within this tree. These were all highly-placed families, highly unlikely that a daughter from such lines would marry someone whose heritage was a London slum. If there is one thing everyone should understand about the people who came to Virginia during the 17th c., with money, with their own ships, living in fine houses -- it is that they were well-connected in their homeland, knew one another, and married with one another. This fact is abundantly self-evident, proven countless times with documentation from primary sources.

Therefore, I really am curious to understand how this particular individual, with her particular background, would NOT be from a different line of Waters. This is a pretty bold claim you've made, please provide specific sources and where the primary documents are located. Thank you.

She definitely doesn't belong to the family of either Lt. Edward Waters or the John Waters line of Anne Arundel, MD. I have become quite familiar with both lines (they considered themselves to be, and probably were, related) and there is just no place she could fit in, even with some of the generous assumptions I made in favor of certain dubious descendants.

Along with the "gentry" who paid their own passage (most of them *didn't* own their own ships), there were many who worked their way across, starting with nothing but their own two hands and acquiring land, money, power and influence by their own efforts. And with the gene pool as small as it was, men couldn't afford to be too fussy in selecting wives (nor women husbands, though they had a wider choice).

As time went on and families became more prominent, they became ashamed of their "lowly" immigrant ancestors and made up myths to make them more illustrious than they really were. The myth of "Lady Grace O'Neill" (a fictional character who was superimposed over the real wife of Lt. Edward Waters) is a case in point. The actual Grace Neale came from a northern English family of, at most, minor local gentry - no titles, not a lot of money, and very little influence. (Edward Waters came from a similar background.)

"Susannah Waters Terrill" the "Catholic heiress" appears to be a product of the same sort of mythmaking. Catholics generally DID NOT turn Quaker - if they were still Catholics by the 17th century, they were quite fanatical about it - but many Puritans did!

The John Waters/Ann Lloyd connection is a "consensus" from numerous family trees, probably based on their being in the right place at the right time to have been her parents. It looks very much as though they were the type of go-getters who would make something of themselves at the first opportunity, regardless of where or how they started. (Very little primary documentation has survived from early new Kent County, VA, due to multiple record burnings and lost censuses.)

The history of Colonel William Kendall, of Northampton County, VA, is instructive as to how much go-getters could achieve in one generation. He came of a family with little money and few if any connections - yeomanry and craftspeople, mainly. His father was a tailor. He worked his way across to Virginia as an indentured servant, managed to make prominent connections, and married his way up the social ladder (starting with his original master's widow), becoming a successful merchant, a magistrate, a militia officer, and a landowner. (We know so much about him chiefly because of a scandalous court case involving his nephew and an indentured servant whom the nephew knocked up.) http://www.amazon.com/Anne-Orthwoods-Bastard-Early-Virginia/dp/0195...

So yes, people who were nobodies back in England could and did make Somebodies of themselves in the New World.

Thank you for your detailed information, I share some of the same with my college history students (17th c. Virginia is a specialty), but I still need to know where specifically in the primary sources I can disprove Susanna's connection with Edward Waters. There is no doubt she was allied with some of the earliest and most prominent families (whom did, in several cases, arrive aboard their own ships). I do not dispute the ability of some immigrants to raise their social and financial position,

Edward Waters' will, 1630. Mentions son William, daughter Margaret and NO OTHER CHILDREN.

Margaret apparently didn't live to reproduce, because there are no records of any husband, children, descendants, anything.

William married twice, both times women who lived on the lower Eastern Shore, all his *documented* children were born there (of his second marriage), and all of them found mates there. None of them ran off to New Kent County or anywhere else on the west side of the Chesapeake.

Two presumed-children have no documentation to support their alleged connection to him: the Thomas Waters who allegedly married a Mary "Lloyd" who may or may not have existed, and a Susannah Waters who supposedly married a Littleton (but not a descendant of Nathaniel Littleton). If she did exist, she certainly WASN'T Susannah Waters Terrill.

Besides the John Waters line that wound up in Anne Arundel, MD (probably stopping off in Somerset County, MD long enough to become convinced Quakers), there are numerous unrelated Waters, Walters, Weathers, etc. families all over the place. (The John Waters who married Ann Lloyd and emigrated from St.-Katherines-by-Tower, London is not traceably related to the Edward/John Waters line.)

By the way, don't go thinking that Edward Waters was born a big shot. He was ship's crew on the "Sea Venture" and got caught in the tempest that inspired Shakespeare's play. His family background was quite modest.

lol...ok. I also teach college English and am well acquainted with the Strachey/Sea Venture connection.

I suppose DNA evidence would also not convince you?

What are your historical research background and credentials? I ask because you write with a tone of authority, yet you express a good deal of platitudes and I am not sure you understand much of the historical and cultural/social background of seventeenth-century Virginia.

Professional historians generally do not draw the types of assumptions you make above. The period in question was one of great flux, low literacy, and absence of extant records. I don't think anyone is in a position to positively state who did not exist because not in the will (check land records?). Additionally, as the Colonial Chesapeake was a society based on travel almost solely by water, we cannot assume that no one "ran away" to New Kent, or elsewhere.

Edward Waters is (probably) my great-great-somethingth uncle.

His (probable) great-nephew John Waters, who settled in Anne Arundel, MD, is my direct ancestor.

Colonial Anne Arundel County has been *quite well* documented, actually, thanks to a gentleman by name of Harry Wright Newman.

As for Accomack/Northampton Counties, Virginia, a fellow by name of M.K. Miles has made a lifetime project of getting *them* documented. http://espl-genealogy.org/MilesFiles/site/index.htm He hasn't got everything, but he has compiled quite a lot and keeps adding to it. (Sometimes you have to read the text entries carefully, because he provides more information than even he realizes. I found a g'g'grandfather - not a Waters - in one of his incidental notes!)

There do not seem to have been any Terrills on the lower Eastern Shore, and the Edward Waters line stuck very tightly TO the lower Eastern Shore. That *very strongly* suggests that "Susannah Waters Terrill", whoever she was and wherever she came from, had absolutely zilch to do with this particular Waters family.

To the best of my knowledge, no *documented* member of the Edward or (Anne Arundel) John Waters lines has ever been DNA-tested. (Somebody got Philemon Waters' line Y-DNA tested: R-DF21, but evidence that he connects to the Edward Waters line is very, very shaky. I gave him the benefit of the doubt, but that doesn't mean I really believe it!)

Thanks, Michael. I try to stick to "just the facts", but it's not always easy. (There are still people who believe in the myth of "Lady Grace O'Neill", even though she is totally a fictional character.)

I am NOT amused, Maven.
You will show me just a little more respect, please.

Let's get back to the riddle of Susannah Terrill, please.

I think I have established that she does not belong to the Edward Waters line (and does not seem to have anything to do with Accomack-Northampton Counties). So then, where *does* she belong?

The Susannah "Waters" who married a Littleton turned out to be an Andrews instead. Susanna Littleton She's Robins/Neale on the distaff side, which puts her close to but not actually in the Waters line.

I'm still not sure about Thomas "Clarke" Waters Thomas Waters, Sr. and Mary Bennett/Lloyd Mary Waters - they're *possible*, but not particularly *plausible*.

These are my direct ancestors and I've been attempting to find more info about Susannah's parents. But first of all, I'm fairly certain from what I've read that her husband's mother was not a Waters.

The only mention I've found of the parents connected to her was in an Ancestry discussion wherein someone noted they've seen nothing to validate that connection.

Most people are trying to connect her to Edward Waters and wife Grace O'Neill or to their son William and his wife Margaret Robins.

These are some notes from some older discussions:

Re: Waters Family up to 1537 England
By Pamela Carroll August 02, 2001 at 12:04:32
In reply to: Re: Waters Family up to 1537 England
11/21/99
have I read your post correctly?

John Waters is the father of:
William Waters Sr who married Alice Canon.
They are the parents of:
Lt. Edward Waters who married Grace Oneil.

OK - here is where I get lost. Are they the parents of Susanna Waters who married Wm Terrell or is there a John Waters who married Ann Lloyd in there somewhere as parents of Susannah which would make him the son of Lt. Edward and GOneil. I had John Waters and Ann Lloyd as her parents then some posts have confused me with Edward and Grace as her parents. If you could get me back
on track I would appreciate it. Pam

--------------------------------

Re: Waters Family up to 1537 England
By genealogy.com user September 15, 2001 at 08:09:55
In reply to: Re: Waters Family up to 1537 England
Pamela Carroll 8/02/01
Saw your message, thought I'd pass on what I have- from Kindred Konnections postings..and possibly from mormon family search web.
John Waters @1537 + ?,William Waters @1557 + Alice Cannon, Edward Waters 30 Nov 1589 + Grace O'Neil, William Waters @1622/3 + Margaret Robbins, Susannah Waters @1633 who married William Terrill. Looking thru what I have I don't see Ann Lloyd.

---------------------

Trees I looked at today are listing her parents as Thomas Waters and wife Susanna Weeks. I think this is due to the fact that Ancestry has a record of a Thomas Waters being father of a Susanna Waters, based on this document:

Susanna Waters
Baptism 11 Dec 1667 Wiltshire, England
Father Thomas Waters

The problem I have with any of the suggested parents is that I haven't seen any real documentation to know when our Susannah was born and I have seen various dates for the various suggested parents. It's as if in everyone's desperation to link parents to her, the info is adapted to try to fit...or in some cases they just run with her mother being something like 10 when she was born.

Personally, I'd rather have no parents connected to her until such time as they can be solidly documented, which may never happen.

It might help if we could document the birthdate of this particular Susanna Waters since there seem to have been others by the same name. Where did the dob on this profile come from?

Asking because one document says she married William Terrell in 1688 and if that's true, she would have only been 11 based on the current dob on this profile.

https://www.ancestry.co.uk/imageviewer/collections/61266/images/419...

Alabama, U.S., Surname Files Expanded, 1702–1981

I think before we can make much headway on who her parents were, we must have an accurate dob for her because that can enable us to rule out or further consider the various suggested parents based on a confirmed dob. Unfortunately, the above link gives dates for her husband William but not for her.

Milleniuim File lists her dob as 1645

Millennium File Source Info
Name Susannah Waters
Birth 1645
Spouse William Terrell

Find-a-Grave has her born 1659

Name Susannah Terrell
Birth 1659 New Kent County, Virginia, United States of America
Death 1725 Hanover County, Virginia, United States of America
Spouse William Terrell

Various records listing 'a' Suannah Waters, daughter of Thomas, baptized 11 Dec 1667 (a month after the dob on this profile) but also 'a' Susannah, daughter of Thomas, baptized:

Susanna Waters
Baptism 26 Mar 1780 London, England
Father Thos Waters
Mother Susanna Waters

The point being with those dates that there was clearly more than one Susannah Waters whose data has become attached to try to fit just one person, since most of this all comes up under hints on Ancestry for the wife of William Terrell. Clearly, all the conflicting info showing up as hints for her includes info for a different person.

So, based on what I've seen today, she 'may' have been born between 1645-1680, which is a wide spread. I also have no idea when she actually died. I can definitely see why some sites list no dates for her at all, because 'who knows'.

The only reason I'm convinced her maiden name was even Waters, aside from that being the one thing everyone seems to agree on, is that Ancestry does show marriage info for her on some of the documents. I attached one screenshot under the Media tab. My membership level didn't allow me to actually open it, so I could only screenshot where it shows that William Terrell, male, married Susanna Waters. There is no date on that, but the other link I shared says they married 1688.

The Sons of the American Revolution application listing William and Susannah has dob and dod for William but no dates for Susannah:

https://www.ancestry.co.uk/imageviewer/collections/2204/images/3259...

I would LOVE to know who her parents are because I would love to connect to the O'Hara lines up the lines of Grace O'Neill if she's even one of my direct ancestors. But until Susannah's parentage can be determined and documented, that will have to remain a wish instead of a reality. lol

Frankly, given the years others have worked on this and not found solid answers, I have little hope of truly knowing who her parents were. I don't think we can rely on any of the dates attached to her, much less parentage...unless some good documentation surfaces. 'It could happen', is always the hope.

Forgot to mention, I think the name Martha is another case of meshing two different women. Everywhere I see William Terrell and wife Susannah mentioned, her name is never Martha Susannah or even Martha.

Anyway, just came across this link that has her dob even earlier:

https://www.ancestry.co.uk/imageviewer/collections/48083/images/Com...

Shows dates for Williams as 1634-1727 and Susannah's dob is listed as 1639.

Debbie Gambrell perhaps start a new Discussion?
My direct as well and I was told who to look for when I matched someone on the X and then later, I found her and it wasn't even someone I tried to connect... she just was there.
This Discussion is kinda old and not so pleasant to look back on?

That may be, but it provides additional info that ties with what I was talking about.

I kinda stumbled onto this line as well. I was working on my ThruLines up my Terrell line and ended up here trying to make sense of the connections. lol

Let's start (again) with the fact that there was no such person as "Grace O'Neill" - she was a later embroidery by embarrassed descendants over plain Grace Neale from Northamptonshire. (I personally suspect Rose O'Neal Greenhow, Rebel spy and confabulator, of adding most if not all of the embroidery - she was an O'Neal on her father's side and a Neale through distaff connections.)

Some time after I last posted, a male cousin from the John Waters Anne Arundel line, who is also here on Geni, reported a Y-DNA test of haplotype I. If this holds for the Edward Waters line as well, as it theoretically should, that knocks on the head any possible male-line connection between them and the Philemon Waters line (haplotype R). On the other hand it does nothing to exclude Thomas Waters from the Philemon Waters line (he's excluded from the John and Edward lines by paper trails).

None of this does anything to clarify where "Susannah Waters Terrill" actually belongs, but it solidifies where she *doesn't* belong.

I see somebody's been messing with the William (of Edward) Waters line again. As far as is known, he had NO CHILDREN by his first marriage, and there is NO PRIMARY EVIDENCE that his first wife was the daughter of Obedience Robins by a putative (UNDOCUMENTED) first wife.

What we *do* know about her is that she was the widow of a Dr. George Clarke (himself a widower who had at least two children by a first wife who may have been named "Elizabeth"), and her name was Margaret. And that's *all*.

All the children of William Waters' second marriage, and most of the grandchildren, were explicated in a Chancery case that took 30 years to settle the Marriott estate. There *was* a Thomas Waters among those children (probably the youngest), but he is not mentioned again anywhere after his father's will of 8 October 1685, and neither he nor any descendants are mentioned in the Marriott chancery case. The likelihood is that he died young and heirless somewhere between c. 1690 and the early 1700s.

So far we have TWO Bogus trees claiming descent from Col. William Waters and "Margaret Robins [sic] Clarke Waters". through the probably-fictitious or at least faux-grafted Thomas: Thomas Waters, Sr. and Thomas Waters, Sr.

"Mary Elizabeth Lloyd" is at least as Bogus. That kind of double-barrelled first name was Not A Thing in the 17th century. Col. Philemon Lloyd had a daughter Mary *and* a daughter Elizabeth, but both of them died young. (There was a Margaret, but she wasn't born until 1683 - much much to young to have anything to do with Thomas Waters - and in any case iirc she married somebody else.)

The root of most of the above problems is that the descendants of Philemon Waters have been grabbing and snatching at the well-documented Edward Waters line for at least some 200 years, just so they can have some verified Jamestown ancestors.