Catharina van Paliacatta, SM/PROG - Catharina van Paliacatta, SM/PROG - Confirmation by genetics?

Beth Hawkins Great! I have started importing the data across...

Thank you :)

Donovan, some of the data that has come across must have been added to MyHeritage by someone else, as there are errors in it. My paternal grandfather had two families, the second one being with my grandmother. But some that are listed as her children are not. I'm not sure how to correct it. It also shows his surname as Oosthuizen, but we have it as Oosthuisen.

I will add you as manager of the Oosthuisens, and then you can edit the profiles.. please request management of any of the other profiles I have added form the profile page..

^ from the profile page..

Will do, thank you :).

On Geni the master profile for Adriaentje Gabrielsz gives her as the daughter of NN European father of Adriaantje and Catharina van Malabar, SM/PROG Adriaantje Gabrielsz, SM

whereas the new profile created for Adriaentje Gabrielsz today has her as the daughter of Catharina van Paliacatta, SM/PROG Unknown Profile

There seems to be some confusion between 'Catharina van Malabar' and 'Catharina van Paliacatta'. Delia Robertson of the First Fifty Years project has Catharina van Malabar as the mother of Adriaentje Gabrielsz. http://www.e-family.co.za/ffy/g7/p7069.htm

Yes I was surprised Adriantjie didn't exist.. but unfortunately I lost power to my desktop PC (Load shedding) before I could follow up.. there seems to other profiles also confused.

Beth Hawkins your Mitrochondrial Matriach is Catharina (Catrijn) van Malabar, SM/PROG and unfortunately (for this discussion) not Catharina "Groote Catrijn" van Paliacatta, SM/PROG sorry for the confusion and the duplicates that were created in the excitement...

I have also fixed Cornelius (Kees de Boer) Cleasz to Claes van Malabar which added to the confusion...

I have her birthplace as Paliacatte, on the Coromandel Coast, India, so I thought she was the same person. Born around 1649.

She must be the person I have as Catharina van Bengale, then, mother of Christoffel Snyman. She is my 9th and my 11th ggrandmother, but not purely through maternal lineage. So sorry for the confusion, and the disappointment!

I suggest you 1st take paper and draw-----
Catharina vs Catharina and Ariantje etc. Yester day I have spent most of the day reading about thise peple. In Familie 47(3) 2010 there is an excellent article written by Charlei Els concerning Anna Maria Pieter - SM of the Els family.
It is in Afriakaans but I will try my best.
Anna maria Pieterse carries the family name of her stepfather, JOhannes (Jantjie) Pietersen(Pieterse) with whom her mothere married in 1752 and where she stayed since the age of 5.
The "herkoms" of ELSIE GERRITS are unknown. In the HERKOMS VAN DIE AFRIKANER, 1971 it is said she comes from 'n family of colour.
According to this Anna MAria's maternal line was a Netherlands father and 'n "non white" (sic) mother. Just as her daughter Anna Maria, known as ANNA MARIA PIETERSE FROM CABO DE COEDE HOOP wgen she married the Prog Johannes Els.
In the publication " GROEP SONDER GRENSE, 1984 of Prof HF Heese and an article in the "Vaderland" of 23/10/1985 ELs are being called as one of the SA surnames with a Non-European "verbintenis"
The father of ANNA MARIA PIETERSE was WILLEM HENDRIKE, whose original "afkoms" is unknown as well. Again inthe "HERKOMS VAN DIE AFRIKANER, 1971 the consumption is made that he was a Netherland descent.
ELSJE GERRITS could have been a daughter of Hermanus Gerrits and Anna Maria Brist. His parents were GERRIT VAN OLDENBURG and SUSNNA van BAMBASAR, the free slave of ANTHONY form ANGOLA.
Such a definate relation could not have been sources yet.
ELsje is as they said NOT 'n daughter of Hermanus Gerrits and Anna maria Brits, according to an article by the well known researccher and writer, Margaret Cairns. In an article "Gerrit Gerrits of OLDENBURG and SUSANNA of BAMBASAR are called an EARLY 18th Centrury Couple.
If you look from Elsje Gerrits to another Gerrits, namely CASPAR GERRITS from Nijmegen, Netherland her ancestry can be laid out as follows.
CATHARINA van MALABAR - can be from Malabar, the South WEST Coast of India, due to the fact that they were usually called from the place they came from.
In most cases she is also referred to as "FROM BENGALE" - now Bangladesh, NEast of India. as well as "van COROMANDEL' the South Eastern coast of India.
At the baptism of her 7 children she is called.
1. Cathryn van Bengale
2. Catharina van Malabar
3. Cornelia van Malabar baptized slave.
4.Again Catharina van Malabar
5. Catharina van Malabaar
6. Catrina van die Kust Cormandel
7. Catharina

In a book concerning the CLASSEN family there are two footnotes she is referred to as Coromandel and from Bangale, a good exemple of the interchangeability of provenances ascribed to slave. and "she is not to be confused with Catrijn from COROMANDEL Coast sold on 9/4/1669 by Jacob Bonghorst Whom J Coon paid for on behalf of Rijkloff Coens Jnr."
She must aslso not be confused with the Catharina ban BENGAAL by whom the SNIJMAN Prog Hans Christoffel had his son Christoffel Snyman the "voorvader" of the Snyman in SA. The last named Cathairna was also known as Catharina v PALICATTA.
This one from PALICATTA was born in India in 1637 and arrived by ship from Malabar though Batacia where seh became the private slave of MARIA VERBURGH Born Maria de BUCQUOIJ. the d.o. Maria Aux BREBIS(AUXBRENIS) (ca 1600-1666). Maria Aux B's 2nd marriage was
to ZACHARIAS WAGENAAR, and that made him the stepfather of Maria Verburgh. He was the 2nd commandeur of the Cape.
Cornelis van Qualburg/de Bucquoij folllowed Wageanar as kommandeur and buys Cathairnaon 30/9/1666. His wife ws JUDIH van den BOOGAERDE. While they stayed in the Cape Maria had a child called Ariaanje Gabriels that was baptsed on 13.11.1667 en the entry read 1667:;Dito (13November) een salvinne kinddt van den EH Command: Quaebergen, wierdt genaamd Adrianetjie de moeder CAtharijn tot getuygen stont in persoon van de juff Quallbergen haar slaevinnen.
Very confusing but for sure different Maria, Catrina, Ariaanjie van Malabar, Caap, Coromandel.
See why I said keep paper ready.
Enjoy.

O yes and the it continues with a Arriaanje/Adriane van Cathryn/Gabrielse - yet another with men Coert Helm van Gehlenbeck in Wesfale and Hendrik Speldenberg
Elsie Speldenberg/Gerrits/Pyl(Pijl) also Hendrik Speldenberg(Pij)
A must "back buy" from eGGSA online shop Availble - Familia 47(3) 2010.

Thanks, Judith. It does get confusing! It has been a long time since I last looked into Catharina/ Catrijn, and I remember giving up at that time, because I couldn't reconcile the fact that I found records of her arriving on two different ships on two different dates. I wondered if she had travelled back and forth, but it didn't make sense, so I just left it. I guess now I know why it didn't make sense!

But I'm glad you mention both were from India, because that is where my mtDNA haplogroup leads. I'm just sorry it wasn't the one you were all looking for :(. I hope that someone else turns up who can help.

Hi Beth, always a pleasure. I just can't resist reading the Genealogical and historical books I can lay my hands on.
Thought I would share.
Please call me Judi,
Have a lovely day.

Thanks Judi - Very interesting. We must put it - and your translation - on the profile.
Beth Hawkins - no need to apologise at all. We would not have known how easily confused they are without this, and besides - finding the Haplogroup for Catharina van Malabar - is just as good! I'll just go and change her on the various project.

Thanks, Sharon :). Please feel free to remove me from any roles you added me to, as appropriate.

No, they still all apply, doll.

AS always Sharon a great pleasure. It is my love and passion and just living it out.
☺

O yes Sharon, Please just "comb" through my translation:)
Sharon Doubell

Will do :-)

Private User says =OK - Hold on to your seats as I have some breaking news! I cannot break this news by staying anonymous as anyone can easily see on which profiles I worked the last few days. So I break the news to everyone at the same time and in the same interest that I meant this discussion.

I have been contacted by another user who broke the news that her mtDNA differs from her South African progenitor's 'known' mtDNA. I have been given permission to share the news with Geni.

I first had to check her line and yes, it is legit and I sourced every maternal profile. (I am bad at multi-tasking) - and can conclude that her paper trail is as accurate as can be.

Now, I could at this stage not check the paper trail of the other maternal descendant as one of those profiles is marked and Geni does not (yet!!) provide maternal links, but shortest links. Pleassssse!

I wonder if we cannot use this case as the first of many to see what the 'implications' and reactions are. And what we can learn in the process and use in future.

The progenitor is known and actually mp'ed with the single sample of mtDNA. Catharina van Malabar, SM/PROG

The two mtDNA samples are U2c and N21 and thus definite conflicts.

U2c: Beth Hawkins

N21: Charlette Louise Hoppe

I know that the N21 paper trail is accurate and have sourced every single profile - matching with at least sources for every single female.

The U2c paper trail also seems legit, except that the mother of the descendant of the child is marked private (perhaps she is still alive?) - making it hard for me who she is and less reluctant to check out that tree.

How can that be that we draw 2 different samples in 2 go's? Could a daughter have been adopted? In one of the 8 non-matching generations - more likely? They only share the first 3 lines of ancestors... if I can believe the Geni 'relationship' path.

Before someone removes anything or break the tree, is it for now not better to 'aknowledge' both samples and we try and find the explanation? Should we get more samples that could increase the accuracy (e.g. there is a smaller chance that everyone is adopted).

Someone collaborating with the U2c tree should please do what I did for the N21 tree... maybe that is a good starting place.

Is it not better to rather just list the number of different samples, per sample type observed, in the DNA fields that are currently in the Curator field? (then users can immediately see how many samples there were and would perhaps be more keen to do the test and come forward if they have different results)=

Can someone please check the U2c tree - esp those profiles without sources?

The N21 tree is fully sourced and seems legit.

N21: Charlette Louise Hoppe

(link did not copy through)

Post to: Catharina van Malabar, SM/PROG - DNA: U2c or N21?http://www.geni.com/discussions/152391?msg=1063883

Thank you Sharon Doubell, Beth Hawkins and others for the very interesting postings!

Thanks also to Private and Private User and Private User and all others - apologies for leaving out the other names.

:-)