Richard III of England - DNA Contribution...

Hello eveyone most of the People are as you say dear cousin Judy Rice we need same of the Humble of the Royalty they are Noble most be very Humble and Generous

Dale, I'm not sure where you're getting your information about ancient population movements.

No one knows when humans first entered Europe, or which route they took. It's clear, though, that they must have been pushed to the edges (Spain, the Balkans) by the ice ages, then followed the retreating ice back into the central and northern Europe.

Y DNA is very fragile. It's always something of a miracle when they can recover it from an old skeleton. So far there are 9 male skeletons from the Early to Middle Neolithic and 25 from the Late Neolithic to Chalcolithic. That's all the evidence we have about who was living where and when.

In the earlier period 2 of the 9 are Haplogroup F, 6 are G2a, and 1 is E1b1b. That might not be a representative sample, but where is the I1 and R1b you claim were so common?

In the later period 2 of the 25 are Haplogroup I2, 2 are R1b, and 21 are G2a. Still no I1, but R1b starts to show up.

You see the tables here: http://www.eupedia.com/europe/ancient_european_dna.shtml

Haplogroup G originated somewhere near the Caucasus and radiated out from there. So, it looks like Cavalli-Sforza already had the answer a generation ago -- farming came to Europe with migrants up from the Middle East. The earliest Haplogroup G skeletons found in Europe are from Spain and southern France 7000 years ago.

http://www.pnas.org/content/108/45/18255.full.pdf+html

But, there's a problem. Something like 80% of western European men are R1b. So, that group might not have been the earliest but they were the most successful. R1b was already in Britain 4100 years ago. They seem to have come up from the Balkans or Ukraine and largely replaced or overwhelmed the older G2a lineages.

http://www.eupedia.com/europe/Haplogroup_R1b_Y-DNA.shtml

Haplogroup I seems to have originated on the Asian steppes, then moved into central Europe. There is, I think, one example of I1 in Europe at the same time as G2a and before R1b, but I1 is still thought to be a relative newcomer, spreading out from Denmark. There is no evidence that I or I1 has ever been the main population of Britain.

http://www.eupedia.com/europe/Haplogroup_I1_Y-DNA.shtml

You should take some time tobrowse the Eupedia articles on genetics. They will help you avoid dead end speculations.

And Dale, just as aside I thought you might enjoy this article I found today while looking for something else:

Recent Radiation within Y-chromosomal Haplogroup R-M269 Resulted in High Y-STR Haplotype Resemblance
http://dienekes.blogspot.com/2014/02/recent-radiation-of-r-m269-mal...

It's written for a scientific audience, and you've already said those aren't helpful to a beginner, but this one should be of special interest to you.

The authors are asking the same question you did -- why is there so much similarity across the subgroups of a haplogroup. And their answer (in simple terms) that there might be a predisposition toward certain mutations.

The first commenter on this thread says it very well, "So, if I understand this correctly, men of diverging subhaplogroup lineages have a good chance of undergoing the same (or very similar) STR mutations. In other words, those are not random, but occur over and over again, at least for members of a specific haplogroup (here, M269). One would expect that the farther removed men are in terms of their haplogroup, the more random the STR variations - which then makes them more useful to distinguish haplogroups at the higher level."

Earliest I-1 of 40,000 years ago are in Africa....not where they have been discovered. I would bet money, that the African I-1's crossed at Gibralter a small space by raft and paddle, and made landfall in Spain. O. Razor. Then the Picts, and Celts would follow from those founding groups, YES? If not then I have to believe that the ones who trecked around the Medeteranian 3,000 miles were too dumb to take the shortest route, and they were not dumb, they were powerfull insightful people who left us cave paintings in Southern France and Spain Portugal. That's my view. DCR

Dale, it's been fun to take a few days off and spar with old adversaries but now I need to get back to the real world. I'll leave you with two points to think about.

First, I wonder why you imagine they had a map of Europe and a specific destination in mind. I rather think they just followed the game and the good farm lands. At these time scales, they would get to the farthest reaches of Europe in no time.

Second, how do you explain the DNA trail they left behind? Why are the earlier (fewer mutations) I's and G's in southeastern Europe, and their subgroups (more and later mutations) in northern and western Europe? If you reject the basic premise that groups originated where they have their greatest concentration and highest diversity, why not just argue that humans originated in Paris and spread to Africa?

Justin, I am intrigued by La Brana 1 whom they dug up in Spain. Firstly because gedmatch has it listed in my oracle multiple times. The second reason is my Brother actually looks like him. I mean even down to his expression. (He would probably kill me if he knew I said that but he never goes online so ....anyways. The only difference is my Brother does not have Blue eyes, he has emerald green eyes like my Mom. They are both pretty dark but do not have African features. After looking at tons of other gedmatch oracles I could not find a single one with La Brana 1 so I got to thinking maybe he is not so common or current. I found only one Swedish cousin who had one mention in their admix but that was it. The only conclusion I can come to about La Brana 1 is that he really got around and he probably can't eat gluten. They dug him up in Spain but he is connected to Swedish, Finnish, Estonian and other origins. I found him mixed with my Irish and Spanish which put's him in the place where he was found. If you mix a Spanish person with an Irish person you are going to get olive skin, maybe darker and light eyes or some version of that. Aren't there a lot of Irish Spaniards?

They had this guy as a lookalike to La Brana, but he's Scottish.

Unknown Profile

Wanda, how cool is that? La Braña 1? I had never heard of him. Had to Google him, then discovered that is the name for one of the skeletons I've read about. Then I looked at the feed for my newsgroups and found La Braña 1 all over the place for the past year. I guess I just never focused until you said something.

After reading your message I went to Gedmatch to see what utility they might have. It would have to be something more generic than just La Braña 1. I thought I remembered something for ancient populations, but I can't find it now.

MDLP World-22 Admixture might be what I was remembering. It has a category called North European-Mesolithic and another called Atlantic Mediterranean Neolithic. Our blue-eyed La Braña 1 would make sense for the Atlantic group, but I don't know for sure that he's there.

Why don't you run your results and tell us what you have. It won't do anything to help our genealogy, but it would be interesting ;)

At that one (and rounding off, and putting in order highest to lowest), I'm 50% North-East-European, 34% Atlantic Mediterranean Neolithic, 8% West-Asian, 6% North-European-Mesolithic, and 1% Indo-Iranian. I have trace amounts of Mesoamerican, Sub-Saharian, and Near East. I suppose that would mean that a little more than a third of my DNA came from the same group as La Braña 1.

Another Gedmatch utility that might be interesting is Eurogenes Hunter Gatherer vs. Farmer.

At that one I'm 57% Baltic Hunter Gatherer, 31% Mediterranean Farmer, and 11% Anatolian Farmer, with trace amounts of South American Hunter Gatherer, South Asian Hunter Gatherer, and North Eurasian Hunter Gatherer. So, it would appear that more than half my ancestry is from hunter gatherers up around Scandinavia, and the rest is mostly farmers around the Mediterranean and Turkey.

To give all of this some context, the big news this last year was that modern Europeans are a combination of three ancient populations -- the European Hunter Gatherers who came up from north of the Middle East 45 thousand years ago, the European Farmers who came up through the Balkans 7 thousand years ago, and the Ancient North Eurasians who came in from the Russians steppes at some period after 7 thousand years ago. It's a little confusing that they don't use the same names and categories as the Gedmatch utilities.

There's a cool map here:
http://www.bbc.com/news/science-environment-29213892

To answer your Irish question -- I'd have to look up the details, but generally speaking DNA shows that the ancient Irish came up from Spain, just as their oral history said they did. (Shhhh. Don't tell Gerhard. He doesn't like oral traditions.)

Hi Justin, It's so nice to have a fellow interest in old blue eyes. I found him in my K13 results on Gedmatch by using the Oracle 4 and you are right, he is part of the Northern European Mesolithic group. Lots of people have that but for some reason, the La Brana 1 does not show up in their oracle admix as part of it. He is certainly Northern European Mesolithic or he is lumped in with them. I do not know if he is part of my Irish/Scottish Ancestor's which I have trails for or if he is part of my other family line that recently became civilized in the past 200 yrs. lol... anyway, here's the scoop.
Gedmatch.Com

Eurogenes K13 4-Ancestors Oracle

This program is based on 4-Ancestors Oracle Version 0.96 by Alexandr Burnashev.
Questions about results should be sent to him at: Alexandr.Burnashev@gmail.com
Original concept proposed by Sergey Kozlov.
Many thanks to Alexandr for helping us get this web version developed.

K13 Oracle ref data revised 21 Nov 2013

Admix Results (sorted):

# Population Percent
1 North_Atlantic 45.77
2 Baltic 24.62
3 West_Med 9.36
4 Amerindian 5.13
5 Red_Sea 4.10
6 West_Asian 3.38
7 Siberian 2.44
8 South_Asian 1.87
9 East_Med 1.43
10 East_Asian 1.17

Finished reading population data. 204 populations found.
13 components mode.

--------------------------------

Least-squares method.

Using 1 population approximation:
1 North_German @ 8.455264
2 Danish @ 8.765875
3 North_Dutch @ 8.789365
4 Orcadian @ 9.069577
5 Norwegian @ 9.358448
6 Swedish @ 9.510867
7 Irish @ 9.768008
8 Southeast_English @ 10.210735
9 West_Scottish @ 10.243642
10 Southwest_English @ 11.153343
11 South_Dutch @ 11.196295
12 West_German @ 11.858915
13 North_Swedish @ 13.214558
14 East_German @ 15.077230
15 Austrian @ 15.114447
16 French @ 16.614145
17 Hungarian @ 19.152103
18 Southwest_Finnish @ 21.308702
19 South_Polish @ 24.708376
20 Croatian @ 24.903103

Using 2 populations approximation:
1 50% South_Dutch +50% Swedish @ 8.009503

Using 3 populations approximation:
1 50% Irish +25% La_Brana-1 +25% Spanish_Galicia @ 7.315225

Using 4 populations approximation:
1 French + La_Brana-1 + West_Scottish + West_Scottish @ 7.061912
2 Tatar + West_Scottish + West_Scottish + West_Scottish @ 7.076351
3 French + Irish + La_Brana-1 + West_Scottish @ 7.104671
4 French + Irish + Irish + La_Brana-1 @ 7.166987
5 Irish + Tatar + West_Scottish + West_Scottish @ 7.206831
6 French + La_Brana-1 + Orcadian + West_Scottish @ 7.235892
7 La_Brana-1 + Spanish_Galicia + West_Scottish + West_Scottish @ 7.244399
8 Southwest_English + Tatar + West_Scottish + West_Scottish @ 7.247712
9 Irish + La_Brana-1 + Spanish_Galicia + West_Scottish @ 7.271399
10 French + Irish + La_Brana-1 + Orcadian @ 7.290482
11 Orcadian + Tatar + West_Scottish + West_Scottish @ 7.299511
12 Irish + Irish + La_Brana-1 + Spanish_Galicia @ 7.315225
13 French + La_Brana-1 + Southwest_English + West_Scottish @ 7.332187
14 French + North_Swedish + Swedish + West_Scottish @ 7.337672
15 Irish + Irish + Tatar + West_Scottish @ 7.354294
16 French + Irish + North_Swedish + Swedish @ 7.370587
17 French + Irish + La_Brana-1 + Southwest_English @ 7.371592
18 Irish + Southwest_English + Tatar + West_Scottish @ 7.373393
19 Finnish + French + West_Scottish + West_Scottish @ 7.385004
20 La_Brana-1 + Portuguese + West_Scottish + West_Scottish @ 7.387310

Done.
P.S. I won't tell Gerhard...lol

Wanda, beautiful! You're going to end up luring me into this even deeper. I don't think I've ever looked at that level of detail before.

I belatedly noticed tonight that Gedmatch has a separate menu item for Archaic DNA matches. That's what I remembered, but wasn't seeing earlier today (because, stupidly, it was "below the fold" on my browser).

I'll have to read up tomorrow on how to read the results. No doubt you've seen it, but for anyone who hasn't, it shows matches to many ancient skeletons. And, a big plus, it gives the Gedmatch kit numbers for those skeletons. There is one for La Brana (F999915) but I don't know if it's the same blue-eyed skeleton. I tried running a one-to-one comparison for me, but no match.

The author's website is definitely worth browsing, if you haven't already:
http://www.y-str.org/p/ancient-dna.html

Justin, I just realized you are my 11th cousin 1x removed, that is awesome. :)
Yes, I tried the Gedmatch Archaic tool as well. Because it is so long ago, you have to lower the SNPs to 200 and the CM to 2 for the one on one.

You can try lower then that but they recommend that as the lowest limit. I checked out your link also, that was a great article. :)

Thank you for sharing it and if you want to try to do a one on one comparison on gedmatch let me since we do share a family line. :)

Ulf, the funny thing about Gerard James Butler being a look alike for La Brana 1 is that IF he is related to the Butlers of Ormond and Desmond then he is related to the Fitzgeralds and if he is related to the Fitzgeralds then he would have Spanish and Irish blood...so they they in the Fitzgerald history. Here's the funny part... I have Fitzgeralds and Butler's in my tree...but does Gerard James Butler? It would be interesting to find out. It would also explain what old Blue Eye's has been up to and what a grand joke he played on us hiding out in Spain.

Interesting that about James Butler, someone need to fill in the parents line on him. About blue eye, my parents had blue eyes, my sibblings also,
but I have mostly green eyes. ; )

I'm not sure I understand what you are saying, Gerhard. You may have missed the part where I said that I rely more on Ancestry.com, because I find it easier to research a multitude of records for verification. As for DNA, my dentist cousin used a couple of tests and prefers 23andMe, which says he has 2.6% Neanderthal origins. I think the average person has 2.7. Are you saying that DNA is inaccurate, or that people using Geni, can't read what it says? My brother and I just sent for the 23andMe tests to assist in the family verifications.

I love the articles you offered, Justin, especially since my family is generally blue-eyed and my cousin and his wife both had Neanderthal confirmed in their DNA. Of course, every time something is proven scientifically, it's only a matter of time before it's modified.

Wanda and Ulf, Brian Boru, High King of Ireland is my 30th great grandfather. Since most of us in this group, according to Geni, are GGCs of Marc Antony and Cleopatra, it makes sense that we are also in Europe and The British Isles. The first monarchs of England, Scotland, Ireland are all shown as my GGPs.

Wanda, I'm curious about Gedmatch. I've uploaded my DNA and have an ID number, but don't have a kit number. I get messages about how they are overloaded and try in off-hours. I don't see any contact info to find out what's actually there and what's not.

Wanda @ Lois Brian Boru, High King of Ireland is my 29th grt grandfather we are all related in one way or another we are all cousins

acording to geni Brian Boru, High King of Ireland 27gg+f both side parents

Hi Lois, the Kit number is what you provide them for example if you sent it from Family tree it will start with an F and some numbers and if from Ancestry it will be A and some numbers.. Just login and try the one to many. If matches show up then you are in the system. On that page are kit numbers of people you match to in the left column.
Lois, Judy, Martin and Ulf if we all have the same ancestor's and you all are on gedmatch it will pick it up. However, that far back you talking small CM matches but I have actually done this with lot's of people related to the monarchy's and most of them matched in numbers consistent with that long ago. Usually 3 cm or less.

I have discussed the meaning of doing a DNA test with my brothers, still we haven't come to any conclusion about it. We know that we are the sons of our parents, and that they are the childrens of theirs, we see the similarity with our cousins, and yesterday I stumbled upon a double cousin of mine, who resambles me when I was in the same age, 17,
but it's a she. The breaking point to my family is somewhere around 1675 to her, but it seems like the genes are dominant. She could have been mistaken as a sister.

Selma Andreasson

Even when I earlier had looked on paintings on royalties, I noticed how much some of them looked like me, I even made fun of him or him beeing my grandfathers way back. It would have been fun to have the proof in DNA, but none of us urges for it.

Interesting discussion between Wanda Marie Pierce and Ulf Ingvar Göte Martinsson, particularly where it deals with the color of their eyes.

Yes, that's what genetics is about, similarities and differences,
since we have come to that fact that no one is a descendant of
Richard III of England beacuse he had no surviving descendants,
so, this discussion has degenerated to be about other things.
Dna in general, fictional descendants, ancestry, etc.
You are much welcome to contribute.

Justin, I had to read your message again for fear I missed something in the late night hour. I just saw you have 6% North European Mesolithic so it would seem you should have some La-Brana 1 somewhere? Do you have blue eyes and dark skin by chance?

I think La Brana 1 is kind of like "Where's Waldo"? I think he's been around all this time but you don't seem him all the time.

When you read those old descriptions of ancient bloodlines you sometimes come across phrases like; "Dark Stranger, Black Prince, etc. For example, Edward and Philippa's son "Edward the Black Prince". To this day people say "What does that mean"? Was he dark?, Was it his disposition? Was it something he wore? No one really know but they speculate. Another one is Clan Mac Dougall http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Clan_MacDougall the Gaelic meaning is "Black Stranger". Was he a La Brana 1 or did it mean something else? By coincidence or not I have that La Brana 1 showing up in my admix 11 times. Was it 11 different Ancestors who were carrying it and who were they? I have a surname match to Linn and Lynn that is associated with Castle Stalker, Loche Linnhe and Clan Mac Dougall. (I'm still researching it though and haven't posted it).Coincidence? Six lines to Edward and Philippa and they of course produced Edward the Black Prince. I have to wonder is La Brana 1 has been hiding in plain site all these years and no one noticed him. Philippa has blood lines that would be consistent with La Brana 1 and the Irish/Scottish Kings may as well.

I almost forgot, if you want to match ancient bloodlines on gedmatch you have to lower the number of CM and sometimes the SNP's when you do the one on one.

Ulf, you are correct, we are off subject and yes, none of us are direct descendant's of Richard III but when you look at his Ancestor's many of us are his cousins and share his Ancestor's. No one here is going to be able to produce a pure YDNA line from him, however there are probably thousands of Plantagenet's who could match him on Gedmatch in a Yorkist minute.... lol but they would probably never put him on there.

Wanda, I got a chance this afternoon to play some more. I got different results from different combinations (of course). At 2 cMs and 200 SNPs, I get two matches to La Brana. Just for fun I also looked randomly at some others. Zero matches for Altai (Siberia) and Denisova (Siberia). One match for Gokhem2 (Sweden). And 22 matches for LBK (Germany).

Fun stuff. I can see why so many people are playing in that particular "sandbox" right now, but I probably won't go any further with it. I'd rather just go through life assuming that I'm descended from all those old skeletons, maybe with a small particular affection for Oetzi and Cheddar Man, who belong to the same haplogroups I do.

I think there's every reason to believe that someone will someday release a BAM file for Richard III, and then we'll see a similar calculator for him. That would also be a lot of fun, although surely everyone in Europe matches him at some level. The day that happens there will be a stampede for DNA testing and Geni will be full of messages from people posting their matches. Marketing is everything. I'll enjoying see that.

Yes, I have blue eyes but not dark skin. I'm more of an Irish type, with reddish hair and freckles. Many people have eye color that radiates out from the pupil in lines, but in my family our pattern is like a mosaic or kaleidoscope of blue, black, and white. Our family joke is that the unusual pattern and color proves we're descended from the Norse god Frey like all good Swedes ;)

I just knew you would match him Justin. Lol...I suppose this means we hard core hunter gatherer's are going to give Peta a fit and we have more excuses to eat red meat. :) I'm down for that. I have always adored blue eyes. My dear Dad and Grandmother got the Brilliant Blue eyes and black hair but I got something else entirely different..

I think in the middle of a genetic mutation I ended up with sectoral heterchromia which is not so bad. I can have a little fun putting down what ever color I want on my drivers license and make people get in fights about what color my eye's are. They usually just stare and ask me if I am wearing contacts. When I tell them no, they get upset as though I tricked them then they will say something like "but that's not your real hair color". I say, your right, its not. I was born with the wrong color and it didn't look right with my Mediterranean color skin so I changed it.

Your red hair and blue eyes sound like a very nice combination. Frey would approve.

Of course you mean "Freja", Wanda, the goddess.

I'm my self was something like a cameleont, I was born with black hair,
and was extremely dark, so dark that my father first thought that some african was the father. Then I changed haircolour like an rainbow, it went from black to almost white, then it change to yellow, red, brown and finally hazel, ( I guess it's what the colour is called, or bronze?)
My eye colour was mottled, or marbeled, the nyances has shifted a lot,
I even got some orange field. Maybe I undergone the whole evolution for the past 40.000 years when I grew up, yes, I did some cavepaintings on the tapestries... ; )

Ulf, the legend says Frey and Freja are Brother and Sister? Justin said Frey :)

http://www.aasd.k12.wi.us/staff/hermansenjoel/apmuseum/bbandn/freya...

I remember the picture Justin had, so by Swedish standard he would be considered as very attractive, but I see that I thougt one step longer than mented, my mistake.

I would like to know how to control my family tree on Geni. Many entries have been made by others and are not necessarily wrong, but inconsistent with my preferred methods. Is there a way? I sent a note to Admin, but don't have an answer yet. I'm thinking I'm going to have to start a whole new tree. This could take years.

Lois, you'll have a hard time doing that. Geni is set up for people to share and collaborate, so it's very normal that a Geni tree would would get more info around the edges. If that's a problem, you might be happier on a site like MyHeritage, where you can control everything in your tree.

Having said that, I seem to remember that there are some options to limit what parts of the tree display for you. You'll have to ask one of the experts about that. Hopefully in a discussion where it's on topic ;)