Rurik, Founder of the Rurikid Dynasty - Rurik's name

Yep I do Alex. Its tiresome to clean up the same thing again and again. I will lock it.

The terminology under that time was a kings son, a kings daughter,
that would be equal to prince and princess, so for me it would be alright to call Rurik prince, since he wasn't a viking, they did plunder, they didn't create kingdoms, of course they could work as mercenaries under some ruler, but again, Rurik wasn't a viking, but they fought against other vikings that plundered these areas. In order to be placed as a head ruler
over these parts in the east, Rurik would have to be the son or grandson to a king, with nowadays terminology it's thereby natural that some would call him a duke, or "Князь", prince, hence pointing to his place in the hierarchy. Read some medieval history please!

The following sources are totally ignored. The life of Vita Anskarii , (actually contemporary with Rurik), and The Nestors chronicle. Why? Are ther a tons of sources left to consider? No!

As I stated before, this was a time when people lived in a very regulated caste society, meaning that nobody could become anything no matter what he did than he was destined to be. A fisherman could never become a king, a simple small farmer neither, nor a slave or any young man who joined a viking trip unless he had the right bloodlines.

People were either slaves or free men, the later ones were the same who were a part of the hierarchy in a very social stratified community.
You can not apply a modern view to this, men who by their own effort made their own fortune or become extremely successful are conspicuously absent in the medieval history sources, and not without reason.. And that how it worked back then, and that how it still worked when Jean Bernadotte become the king in Sweden, he had to first be adopted by the former king, than have his new name Karl XIV Johan.

The first thing they did was to let his children marry in to the Swedish nobility, thus making them by blood became more legit. This nothing new, this just follow how things did work. You are free to have your own belief, but how accurate they are are something else.

Summary

1* Someone have tried their best to rewrite the history, not once but several times over and over. The Kings in Svitjod are actually still called fairy kings although they are referred in several different ancient historical texts as real kings.

2* In the 850, King Olof ruled in Svitjod when Ansgar arrived to Birka again to reestablish the christian parish, (852). Olof was believed to be a son of Björn at Håga.

3 * In the life of "Vita Anskarii", it is told that Olof led a war expeditions against people in the east that had previous been ruled by them but had broken free because they did not accepted the Svitjod supremacy in the beginning of 800.

4* This event correlated with that Nestor later reproduces in his chronicle, telling the story of emissaries chosen from different tribes to represent the slaves, sent to ask the Rus leaders to take back control in their area. Nestor doesn't really pin point this event, but commonly the year 862 have been chosen, but it is only one estimate, consider that archaeologists estimates that the graves in Novgorod started to be used approximately from the year 850.

5* Most likely Rurik was the son of Olof and the great picture becomes as following, sometime under the middle of 800 century, Olof ruled as King in Svitjod, he was asked to help the people in east to take back control, which he did starting by attacking Kurland, then moving around that area, at the same time danish vikings tried to plunder this areas leading to conflicts and battle with them, ending with that they finaly got rid of the danes, this is also the reason WHY Rurik wasn't of direct danish origin, more likely, or in fact the only possible solution is that Rurik was indeed the son of Olof and that he was ordered to take control of the more northern part east of Kurland, now known as Novgorod, while his two other brothers were sent away in two other directions, not surviving their mission resulting that only Rurik were successful.
............

Note

Ansgar died 865, Vita Anskarri was written by his successor Rimbert
under the period of 865-876, so when he mentioned that Olof led a war expedition against Kurland, he should be considered as a contemporary source retelling an event based on historical facts, not fiction.

Secondly, it definitively stated that the danish vikings did plunder. Sporadic raids to gain personal profit are not the same as defeating the opposition against the Svitjod's supremacy, and it's definitively not the same thing as taking control over and of the land or trying to establish some kind of order, it's in fact the opposite.

Now, feel free to talk about historical revisionism..

Hi Alex i agree with you the profile should be locked you put to many hours cleaning up other peoples bad merges

I have looked the namefield, but I am not sure its enought. What do you think?

I believe that people with brains all over the world that actually are interested in this subject will look at the few sources available and draw the line between the dots and come to the same conclusion, that most likely Olof Ring was the father of Rurik, then connect them.

The problem is that it can not yet be verified, not yet be proven, thus does not meet the necessary requirements in genealogy, it is not established beyond all reasonable doubt, he could be his brothers son, his fathers son, his daughters etc. But that will not stop people who actually are reading the sources to wanting to set him in the right family.

The easy solution would just be to set Ruruik in as Olof's son and add a footnote about it, but what I understand, nothing is easy for most people.

Ulf, I've been intending to mention the DNA problem here. Nothing is conclusive, just some early indications, but something to think about.

DNA testing on Rurik's descendants seems to show that he was a Swede and that he or his ancestors came from from the area around Uppsala.

Rurik's descendants belong to yDNA haplogroup N1c1. This is primarily a Finnish group, but there are some in Scandinavia. You can see a distribution map here: http://www.eupedia.com/forum/threads/26748-New-map-of-haplogroup-N1c1

The Rurik project says, "A group of Swedes, whose ancestors lived in or close to Uppsala, and whose genetic haplotypes are very close to these of the Rurikids, seems to be confirming the theory that Rurik, in fact, originated from Sweden."

* http://freepages.genealogy.rootsweb.ancestry.com/~mozhayski/teksty/...

Good so far.

Then, your theory is that Grand Duke of Novgorod Rurik was a son of Olof Anundsson (Ring). I can't find him on Geni, but you provided his ancestry here: http://www.geni.com/discussions/147395?msg=1024834

So, you are saying Rurik's father was Olof, who was a son of Emund Eriksson, king of Birka and a brother of Eric Weatherhat, King of Sweden.

This would mean that Rurik was a paternal 1st cousin of Björn the old, king of the Svear, who was a 3rd great grandfather of Sweyn II Estridson, King of Denmark according to the saga genealogies.

As far as I know, we don't yet have yDNA results for Sweyn / Svend but if the saga genealogies are correct then he would have to be N1c1 like Rurik.

So, my question is this. If Rurik was the son of Olof, why don't we see hundreds of royal and noble families with N1c1 all over Scandinavia?

The saga genealogies give many male lines back to this same family. Even if the legitimate male lines died out, there should be male-line descendants of illegitimate sons all over northern Europe.

I would have to look for the details, but there is at least one family that claims a male-line descent from Sweyn / Svend. They are R1b, not N1c1. And, quite a few of the Scottish families in Hebrides claim a male-line descent from related lines. Many of them are also R1b.

DNA testing is not yet at a level where it can solve this problem, but the overall impression I get is that the yDNA of Rurik's descendants looks like he did NOT belong to this line.

There it is, in a nutshell, it seems like the bloodlines in the later kings are from different paternity lineage, thus not true if they claimed to belonged to this old kings in Svitjod, at least, on the fathers side it would be broken at some point.

Björn Järnsida, 785
his son Erik Björnsson, 800
his son Björn på Håga, 815 his brother Anund Uppsale
his son Olof Björnsson. 830 Erik Anundsson
Rurik 845

As you see, Olof could be the son of either Björn, or Anund, both are likely, then if you notice the years between them all, they're all around the age of 15 when they became fathers, and that's also around the same age when they were titled kings, and they did co-ruled, brothers with brothers, and most likely, the concept of having just one king was not in order, so their fathers who still lived were also kings, making it somehow hard to grasp for them who only can imaging one king at a time. The younger kings also had advisors something to count in the aspect. If they were to find any DNA of Ragnar Lodbroke, he would surely also had to belonged to N1c1.

So, none of those old kings left surviving male lines??

That's what seems unlikely to me.

No, they would have left male lines, but none of them would be the ruling kings some hundreds years afterwards. Nothing strange at all.

Some people may have claimed to be the sons of this or that king, but in fact being the son of just some other man, then add affairs, the queens getting pregnant by someone completely else, etc.

Racism, who really would accept the idea of a "strange" mixture of finnish swedes and slaves also being vikings, and KINGS! Not the danes, nor the swedes would like to have that stated, so they all hide what ever proof that occurs, not even Nestor told the truth because he wanted to create a glorification of the slavic people.

If you have noticed it, there really still exist political reason to cover up the history.

According to me, Rurik was about 34 years old when he died, according to Nestor, in his 80's. He left one underage son when he died, well, just figure that one out. What is more likely, which story would we really believe in?

I see something different, Ulf. I'm not surprised that this male line in all its branches lost the various Scandinavian thrones over time. What does surprise me is your idea that none of their illegitimate sons continued on as local nobility or left any prominent families that claimed descent from the old kings.

As I said above, I'm particularly skeptical because so many of the kings of Man and Isles are supposed to be descended from the same male line. Their descendants are mostly R1b.

So, you have a case where you are arguing that Rurik must belong to this family but many other kings who claim the same lines are fakes. I think your theory is interesting, but I"m not ready for such a dramatic re-write.

As I stated before, most lines passes on only by woman after a while, the majority of people who today have any connection at all with this profiles, have a lot ! of woman in between. There have also been a lot of events beside wars, plagues e.g. , that killed of a third of the Europeans, it affected almost everyone, and my small guess is that not even kings were spared.

When I argue for the Ruriks lineage, it is based on who that actually could claim the power under that time (after 450 to 1000), and they were indeed just the ones who could claim to be descendants of Oden,
and no, Svantevit wouldn't due, not any other gods either, this was the time of asatro, the Christianity had not yet been fully established, and instead people had a polytheistic belief, there were many gods, but in order to have power in the north and their domains, which included most of the areas around the Baltic Sea, you just had to be able to claim that origin. I really can't understand WHY this is so hard to understand, and why it is ignored? It is fully possible that they didn't necessary had to claim a male lineage only, that they could make exceptions, but with none of your parents belonging to this lineage, you wouldn't have a chance in hell to make it no matter how strong or viable you were.

Summing, what I just wrote should be considering as historical facts, not my opinion.

Private User, Thank you.

Anette, i think locking the English field locks all the languages? So English looks fine to me but i have no opinion about other languages.

Ulf, Rurik may have been a prince indeed your argument that he must have been a noble born Swede makes a lot of sense to me. However, my point was that giving him the title of "Grand Duke" is as accurate as calling Julius Caesar, Roman Dictator the King of England.

As for your last comment that we should consider your opinion as historical fact, well that's the stumbling block that we have my friend. You are entitled to an opinion, http://www.tpuc.org/wp-content/uploads/2013/01/o.jpg :)

Justin, I read the other day that Rurik's DNA search was indicating Finnish origins which combined with the original settlement at Ladoga was suggesting to me that perhaps he was "Finnish" (whatever that would mean in 9th century), thank you for explaining that there is a Finnish DNA pocket in Sweden.

Sorry, Ulf, i am not meaning to insult you.
Portions of your theory/opinion may indeed be correct but expecting the rest of us to accept them as facts is ludicrous.

No offending taken, It's just like if I gave you a precis description how a combustion motor works, and you answer, that's your opinion!

Well, we all have our limitations, but I'm at least very open minded.

I agree you should lock the English field

Uppsala is not the same Uppsala 1000 yrs ago.. Rather Uppsala is plural Uppsalir.. and most of them are In Västergötland... Not in the area around Stockholm...
http://wadbring.com/historia/sidor/upsala.htm

Johan, in this case they're use a modern map to locate the ancestors of the people who match Rurik.

Right. Im just saying that sometimes people look at the wrong places. You know deductive and inductive methods to prove an already existing theory for example. Or the other way around.

Västergötland has become a peripheral area of the nation-state, created in the 1600s and 1800s etc. But on this time it is in the centre. With lots of high graves (such as those in Uppsala) and old graves from many ironage.. that the area around stockholm doesnt have - because it was still under water at tthat time. (from Iceage, still coming up) The culture and organisation developed in the Götaland - the same as Sweden.. .also a definition of how to define swedes.. its also plural - -like a federation.

Västergötland has much Haplogroup I. Far away from the finnish types.

Many graves - big ones, like SKalunda has never been excavated. Bec they dont want to find "better things" there than can be suitable with the theory of where the swedes came from.. based on a theory. And geo - location, artificial Hierarchys..

When we know more about Västergötlands graves etc - we know more about Rurik and all those guys

The same for Norway and Denmark - the same here.. Bohuslän is now periphere.. And Halland..

So Gångerolf, Ynglingaätten, Hardrade etc) and Lodbrok also will have a new understanding.. if the geo-puzzle is arranged better.

http://wadbring.com/historia/undersidor/gefion.htm

About the ruling class

http://wadbring.com/historia/sidor/upsala.htm

Where was Uppsala

http://wadbring.com/historia/sidor/keng.htm#beowulf

Beowulf

http://wadbring.com/historia/undersidor/vanern.htm

The area of the Icelandic sagas (Swedish areas)

Google translate.. :)

The whole puzzle need s to be relayed.
But it is possible to do..
If we get money to excavate

About land-level rise in Stockholm: According to http://www.lantmateriet.se/sv/Kartor-och-geografisk-information/GPS... the current land-level rise in Stockholm is 5 millimetres per year or so.

In a thousand years, this should become 5 metres (if even) - enough to make significant dents in the coastlines, but very far from enough to say "Stockholm was under water". You wouldn't even flood the Parliament's island completely at that speed. But you WOULD decrease the difficulty of bringing ships from the sea into Mälaren by quite a bit.

Traditionally Stockholm was founded 1252, that's it. Before that it wasn't that significant and the capitol of Sweden might have been in another place if it wasn't for circumstances. Before 1200s, most larger towns in Sweden were connected by river, that means that people could travel by boat from Uppsala to Västerås, to Eskilstina to Norrköping over to Motala up to Askersund and over to Karlstad, from Karlstad down to Alingsås, from Alingsås out to Lödöse and out into Bohuslän, without the need for once to go outside Sweden or into the Baltic Sea, or via the Ocean or by land.

Going by the river systems was a pretty safe way to travel, you were better protected and you could carry more goods. By the effects of the land elevation they needed over time to have more flat-bottomed boats, install sluices and at some part just carry the boats over, until it no longer were possible to go certain ways. If you would have pictured this land pre 1200s, you would see a network of rivers that functioned as highways, connecting all bigger sites where people lived, thus also better understand why the larger towns are located just as they were, and in many or the most cases exist until today, but nowadays, some of them seems to be far away from water.

Thanks, Johan. That's a very helpful way of looking at it. It also goes a long way to answering a question I've had. Sweden is supposed to coalesced around the cult center at Uppsala, but when I look at all the rune stones and place names in Östergötland and Västergötland it's clear they must have been a center too.

Just noticed these profiles...
Halfdan Haroldsen
Grand Duke of Novgorod Rurik
Seems like Rurik is popular these days..
With a new angle for parenthood..

@ Justin. Great - Hope the info was useful.

For us who comes from the Götalands it is very clear, as soon as you come to areas north of the forests of Västergötland and Östergötland you realise people cant have lived here for such long. And that many of them perhaps are descendants of finns or estonians coming to trade.

Birka in Mälaren is also not the real Birka that for ex Adam of Bremen referred to.. there were many "shopping centers" and 90 percent of the population lived in Västergötland and Östergötland / Småland.. - with Öland..

I think there only was a small center in what is now called Svealand.. not until very much later it grew in population etc..

But it means we can find many clues if search at the right places.. if we have the right definitions of things (for example)

/ J

It seems like Heidi Lee has been busy today by creating a lot of profiles,
that almost everyone already exist... But where are the sources?

Anyone can create a profile and this lines sources to Halfdan Haroldsen wouldn't stand against even the smallest scrutiny.

Harald - Not time ago the lands of Mälaren was salty.. fjords.. bays.. not so fertile land as in Östergötland and Västergötland.. And im talking about thousands of yrs.. besides.. what i mentioned is just a way of speaking to illustrate my point. . :)