Display DNA as a field in profiles

I see some people using "SUFFIX" field for it. But it should probably be a different (searchable) field.

Stay tuned. It's on the enhancement wish list.

Hurray!

Thank you for the update Erica. I look forward to a searchable field for DNA test results.

I do not know what the DNA test result implementation will be in Geni, so don't know if it's a searchable field or .... .

Ideally DNA results would be searchable, though having a field for the results would also be helpful.

Suspect this is something I do not want to see -- but until clearer picture of what is being envisioned, cannot be sure.

Private User, if you do not wish to use it, you do not have to. But it would significantly help many people, especially those who will be doing genealogy in the future.

The biggest issue that i see with such a feature is to do with privacy. I am unsure if MyHerritage is strong enough to refuse to cooperate with a demand to turn over all the data from some organisation powerful enough to shut them down. But then every genetic testing company that i've seen demands that you provide them with your name when you test, so once you've been tested, it's kind of too late.

GENI users interested in genetic genealogy would find useful a field for the Y-DNA and mtDNA haplogroup designation, not the actual DNA sequence. Haplogroup information can enrich the GENI experienceby extending genealogy back in time beyond surnames.

Great idea. Synchronously, the SA Curators were just asking Mike Stangel for just such a field on this Discussion: http://www.geni.com/discussions/151986?msg=1061169

Hi Sharon - Your link above is to my message - I did not request in that message for such a feature. :) Maybe just link to the message that did request it :)

I think the link is to that page - on which I did request it. I don't think it's possible - or if it is, I don't know how - to isolate only my post on that page.

A birdie whispered in my ear that you click on the time date stamp. You live and you learn :-)
http://www.geni.com/discussions/151986?msg=1060872

Hi Sharon, we do learn new things every day! What you propose. In that discussion regarding having a field.in the profile to enter this type of information is just what I am envisioning.

My fear, and I don't know how valid it is - is two-fold (at least) -
1) many folks will believe they have PROVEN a relationship if, for example, both Profiles have MtDNA Haplogroup 'K'
2) folks who "understand" will copy the MtDNA Haplogroup to the full line of Maternal Ancestors - and down thru all their Daughters -- and folks will do similarly with YDNA Haplogroup and Paternal Ancestry and Sons - thus ignoring the possibility of Mutations and so introducing errors
-- and also wildly amplifying any typos or other errors
(and also possibly creating Privacy Problems).

That is true.

Here're my two kopeks which could potentially help with the errors in copying/retyping.

Introduce something that is automatically shown on the profile, for example: "This person't granddauter has a confirmed MtDNA group such and such" then people will not start retyping it (hopefully) since it is already shown. This could also point to something that needs to be examined, if the hiplogroup is different for two granddauters, maybe there was a mutation, or maybe there was an incorrect merge... or perhaps an adoption.

... and then you get people like me that don't know anything about the DNA "thing" so I would not have a clue what to copy if I had to. So "Introduce something that is automatically shown on the profile" would work for people like me. ;-}

I'm happy that some GENI users are interested in genetic genealogy, or at least are willing to consider this exciting dimension for genealogy.

One thing to consider with genetics and genealogy is the time frame for mutations to occur. Mitochondrial DNA (MtDNA) mutates very very slowly. The timeline for mtDNA mutations within the regions that are tested for genealogy is tens, sometimes hundreds of thousands of years. The chances for a mutation to occur within recent genealogical time frames is very slight. Therefore, mtDNA is a reliable test that can identify ancestors of your maternal line. So if your mtDNA haplogroup is K, then your mother, her mother, her mother, her mother, her mother, her mother ....... will all be haplogroup K. So we could confidently assume that all our ancestors within our maternal only line are haplogroup K.

Y-DNA is also used for genealogical purposes. Each man inherits his Y-DNA virtually unchanged from his father, and his father, and his father, and so forth. The timeline for mutations to Y-DNA is also very slow, making Y-DNA a reliable genetics test for genealogical purposes. The chances for mutations to occur within genealogical time frames is also very small. Another advantage of Y-DNA is that males tend to retain the surnames of their fathers, so the Y-DNA is useful for surname studies. We can therefore add a Y-DNA haplogroup to all members of our male only line.

Autosomal DNA, atDNA, is also used for genealogical purposes. We each inherit on average half of our DNA from our mother and half from our father. Our parents inherited their DNA from their mother and father (our grandparents), and so on. atDNA is useful for identifying ancestors within a genealogical time frame out to about 4th cousins. atDNA also has a relatively high mutation rate. Each of us has a unique atDNA sequence. So we would enter the atDNA results for only our own profile.

There is a lot more to say about genetics and its usefulness for genealogy. Feel free to contact me if you want to discuss this further.

Noelle Ochotny

Now, where it gets interesting is when mismatches are identified. For example, take two women who are cousins at some level (say 6th cousins) from their mother only line but don't have the same mtDNA. In such a case, the female line would have to be reviewed: someone on the line is not who we believe she is.

This is going to be fun when a lot of Geni users get their DNA test done.

Thinking about it, this kind of scenario will be even more frequent on the Y-DNA lines. Historically--and today--it is always easier to know for sure who the mother is. But about the father? I suspect we will detect a lot of line breakage on the paternal only (Y_DNA) line.

Also - remember mutations do happen - and always between two generations - so - one may have been hundreds of years ago - but one might be between a person and their parent. That does happen.

Lois, I think Noelle's point is that, for mtDNA and Y-DNA, we can disregard the possibility of mutation for genealogical purpose (say, 1,000 generations). Mutations are so rare that their role (once again, for genealogy) are negligible.

Remember that for genealogy, only a very small part of one's DNA is tested. So yes, on the entire DNA, there are mutations more often, but those mutations are very rarely in the areas of the DNA that are tested for genealogy.

The risk of data error with DNA in genealogy is much much bigger from error in ancestry information (is the father we know "the real" father?) or even, the risk that the DNA test itself is inaccurate. These two factors are much bigger than mutations.

By the way, does anyone know what is the accuracy of the DNA tests they do for mtDNA and Y-DNA? If someone of you has been involved with DNA forensics court cases, I would think you'd have very precise accuracy numbers.

Morel - my (very beginning) understanding of DNA for genealogy is not that test accuracy is the issue, it's the quality of the reference samples; the size of the database; and the interpretations of the test results.

That said, also DNA testing is a fast moving target with exponential growth.

morel - Based on comments in the Forums on FamilyTreeDNA, I would say definitely no, mutations are not so rare that you can be sure they did not happen between you and your parent. That sort of mis-understanding is exactly what I am worried about seeing - and there you are, making the point for me, that yes, folks will misunderstand.

DNA mutations is a fascinating field. We have much to learn about it. Private User, this seems to be an important area for you. You are most welcome to study it deeper and share with us your findings.

For genealogy, there are perhaps other areas from DNA that have a greater impact on family tree accuracy, such as, as well said by Erica Howton : 1) quality of the reference samples 2) the size of the database 3) the interpretations of the test results.

About "mis-understanding", I don't think anyone should worry about this. DNA in genealogy is such a relatively new and complex field. Of course, we are all mostly ignorant about it. We are all going to make mistakes and "mis-understand" most of the time. I think Geni is a fabulous place to learn about it as a community. We will keep learning from each other for years to come.

We’ve been discussing this on the other thread. I think the wikitree DNA tagging system is heuristic. Take this page for example:

http://www.wikitree.com/wiki/Baker-17919

On this profile on the left side I see two different Y DNA results and ten different GEDMATCH kits with information about where the test was taken. I can see in this profile two children and I can note that a Y DNA test was taken by a descendant of each of these two children and comparing these results I can see that both of these men belong to the same haplotype.

I can then take the GEDMATCH kits and compare them on GEDMATCH. I can see that they triangulate to the same segments. I can visit AncestryDNA and FTDNA and compare matches using their respective tools. I can contact the tester. I can trace the results to the tester and do a sanity check on their genealogy.

I think the most important thing to note is all of these DNA tests are attached to the profiles of the tester and not the ancestor. They then automatically propagate up the tree.

If I find an error in the genealogy of a descendant I can disconnect that line and the DNA results automatically disappear from the profile.

So we are reporting the DNA results of relevant testers on the profile and not making any claim about the DNA of the ancestors. These can be used just like any primary source. They can also be misused just like any other primary source.

I think the second most important thing about this system is if you click on any test results listed you get more details like the profile of the person who took the test so you can verify their genealogy, the testing company and type of test i.e. how many markers? Full sequence, etc? Contact information, GEDMATCH kit numbers, mtDNA ref numbers, Ysearch numbers and other data.

Privacy is not a concern because the system is voluntary. If a tester chooses they don’t have to post their results. Those who want to share will post their results.

Also data propagation is limited to a certain number of generations.

Mutations are not only interesting but very helpful. So for example by seeing various mutations on different reported Y DNA results of the same ancestor’s profile we can actually predict branches of the male tree lineages and see if they confirm the genealogy.

To me this is looks like the future of "one world tree" style genealogy sites.

GENI should adopt this.

"Privacy is not a concern because the system is voluntary." - so what keeps someone from posting info on their sibling's or cousin's unclaimed profile??

Because if nothing prevents that - then privacy IS an issue.