Francoise Martinet, SM/PROG - mtDNA Group known? - what is the strength of the test?

Started by Private User on Friday, January 8, 2016
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I’m going to take my last example and make it even simpler:

Let’s go back to fish. I have a pond in my backyard in California with one color of fish – green. All the green fish descend from a green patriarch. Now we want to collect samples of the fish, check their color and determine the genotype of the patriarch. However, before I take a sample of fish and game department shows up and dumps in an unknown quantity of identical green fish who hail to a different green patriarch from Nevada who has a different genotype. Not knowing which of the green fish is which – what sample size would I need to determine the genotype of the green patriarch from California? Keep in mind we have no idea if the original population size was 1 fist or 100 fish. And we have no idea of the added population was 1 fish or 100 fish. So the native California fish could be the minority or majority in the pond.

I’m going to make the claim that there is no sample size that can determine the genotype of the California green progenitor.

This is the simplest possible example I can think of. If the fish don’t have a proven pedigree and there is no viable system for putting a weight to each pedigree no sample size can determine which fish are the descendants of the California progenitor. And the same follows for any human progenitor.

I could quote which text books I used to study statistics, genetics, forensics, etc. But I don’t believe it adds to my argument.

This is a case of using the wrong experiment design to test a hypothesis.

Jan I am going to have to respectfully disagree with you on this.

The DNA data is useful on the profile and should be taken as a primary source just like any other source.

However, I do really appreciate the discussion you have started here and it is very thought provoking. It is helping all of us think more clearly. And I would like to collaborate with you on future discussion about genetics and South Africa. And I hope we can share more papers.

Re: I’m going to make the claim that there is no sample size that can determine the genotype of the California green progenitor.

To make sure I understand correctly, this is because the mtDNA of the test taker is analyzed, and assigned a place on the phylogenetic tree (labeled U5b currently in this case).

Therefore the mother > mother > mother > >>>>> ("Ursula clan")

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Haplogroup_U_(mtDNA)#Haplogroup_U5_

Cannot be a different "clan mother.".

It doesn't mean that everyone U5b or even a percentage of those U5b have the same maternal ancestry. A chromosome comparison however of two test takers could determine a match?

I can't say it better than Roland has

If may be helpful to add that you seem to me to be misunderstanding that the motherline descendants of a female progenitor can actually be mtDNA cousins, not just autosomal cousins. (I'm not sure if these cousin descriptors are words used in genetics, but I think it gets the picture across). Descent lines from sisters will produce this. (The same will be true of fatherline descent lines from brothers and the Y DNA)
June and Daan are mtDNA cousins according to the Geni tree. This is far more straightforward to compare than their autosomal DNA match (which, as you say, would not match).
Their mtDNA should be an exact match. If it isn't, then they have their tree wrong.

I'm going to leave it at that.

Crossposted with Erica.

The term "DNA cousins" is becoming popular, yes.

I have a number of DNA cousins. We have significant chromosome segment matches but do not have paper trail (yet) to identify the common ancestor(s).

Since June & Daan are "mtDNA cousins" (caveat, I realize Daan's test results are pending) then the only question will be identifying their most recent common ancestor (MRCA). MtDNA cannot tell you that as mutation rate is slow? (something like that ... Off topic).

This profile is it: Francoise Martinet, SM/PROG

Daan and June are each descended from one of Francoise's daughters in a direct female (mtDNA) line.

(Interesting, perhaps - is that this is also my 8th gr granny , and I'm descended from the same daughter that Daan is, but after that mine isn't a direct female line, so it wouldn't be useful to test my DNA to check the line - i don't think :-))

Roland - I agree that in your latest fish example the design is wrong - you need to be able to tell the DNA of at least one of the two progenitor fish to start with. Then you just need 1 sample of the other DNA if you knew there were only two progenitors to extrapolate. If you don't know which is which, it is not sampling, you merely draw another until you find a different sample than the known progenitor. However, it is not a the same as humans, where we have a paper trail - see paragraph regarding assumptions how we could allow for it (or at least, estimate how wrong it may be in the analysis.)

For sampling, you need the actual N (population size) or you need it to be large (my reference to that many samples needed).

But in genetic genealogy - and I do have limited understanding of all the technicalities - but took a crash course the last few days - my understanding is that it is the sum of the two. We have a wonderful tree full of individuals linked to it and we can introduce DNA successfully I believe.

Use the genealogical information aided by DNA, but be careful of the conclusions, and hopefully some would realise that a sample not consistent with the bulk of samples, does not mean it is not relevant or yes - the tree is wrong (but how?), and the conclusion should be that more samples are required until that sample can be dismissed with statistical authority.

Under that aura, I would still like to disagree with the use of a single sample (however accurate in terms of paper trail), be the sole source of Y or mt DNA - but agree that it is an indicator. I merely ask that people don't jump the boat when a different sample emerges, but be considerate of the implications (which is NOT - my tree and not your tree is wrong - or your tree is wrong and my tree is right - the last one more likely!!!! :)))).

We should make a few assumptions and use that in the genetic genealogy analysis. The assumptions I suggested is that the population is large, the paper trail is accurate(but see next item), and that one should allow for errors. Maybe 6% (wild guess!!) based on the sum of 1% due to emperical evidence of 'unfaithfullness' (can be studied in more detail) and the sum of mistakes (being in particular sources, Geni, 'sportmanship' and the like - but that is just a wild guess and as results come it that can be estimated to much greater certainty).

I.e. With more and more samples in future, of course this discussion should disappear in entirety as we would have something meaningful - and I agree, it can never be 100%, but it would be the best we have available and we should be able to tell with greater reliability - at least considering the alternative of having nothing.

I 100% agree that DNA should be a source (and a great one) - but it should be 'future' proof as to how it is incorporated. So maybe we should agree that once a different sample than the others emerges, that it should not be dismissed, and both genotypes be shown until it can be cleared up - agree in this profile we only have one and therefore no issue. And taking it further, say 3,4,...20?? different samples.. many waves ;)

Alternative, it was suggested that different genotypes - for the same paper trail - is a great source of where to do genealogy research as result. I hope that profiles will not be un-linked or DNA results be removed, rather that all would be shown until cleared up. I believe all of us are in for one great ride! Darn - I just convinced myself to do a DNA test on everyone I know! :)

I'm going back to the study for Abraham Lincoln's mother.

Take a look here:

https://www.familytreedna.com/public/HanksDNAProject/default.aspx?s...

Hanks DNA Project - mtDNA Test Results for Members

The table below shows each project member's kit number and their tested mitochondrial DNA (mtDNA) results. According to the project's settings, it may also display the most distantly known ancestor of each project member. Following scientific standards, Family Tree DNA compares all mtDNA results to the RSRS. The most distant common maternal ancestor to all people alive today as well as several ancient humanoids are the basis for the RSRS. Thus, a comparison to this reference reveals clearly the path between each person and our shared maternal ancestor. In general, those who share the same direct maternal ancestor within the last fifteen generations should have mtDNA results that match exactly.

Exactly :-)

"In general, those who share the same direct maternal ancestor within the last fifteen generations should have mtDNA results that match exactly."

So there is in fact not a meaningful margin for error? [test quality put aside]

mtDNA matches, or it doesn't.

The haplogroup is correctly identified [to the current nomenclature, maintained externally by ISSOG] or it isn't.

To me the break is if (say) the 8th gg is incorrectly identified.

It's actually pretty awesome and a credit to the genealogical skills of South African genealogists to have an identified 8th great grandmother, we should all be so lucky. :):)

We have lots :-) - the fortuitous result of a bottleneck arrival of immigrants recorded as they got off the boat.
I think SA is a great playground for geneticists because the (White) genealogy is so well developed.
It's also the home of one of the oldest mtDNA strains there is - the Khoi: Krotoa 'Eva' of the Goringhaicona is many of our (including my) 10th gr granny. We used Jeff's Circle graphs to find 4 motherline descendants of hers, who are Geni users. Now we just need funding for their tests :-)

Most human DNA is contained in 23 chromosomes inside the nucleus of the cell. The mitochondria were once separate cells (bacteria) that entered the cytoplasm of a host cell and they had their own circular DNA molecule. They lived in a symbiotic relationship with the host. They conferred a selective advantage to the host which allowed the host to process oxygen to produce energy.

Previous to the period the atmosphere of earth was reducing and the cells we evolved from used reduction of substrates like sugar (glycose) to produce energy via glycolysis much like yeast cells do today through fermentation. The early atmosphere of earth contained lots of methane and little oxygen – much as you find today on Jupiter or Saturn for example. So our ancestors – single celled organisms evolved in an oxygen poor environment. In fact oxygen was toxic to them. They lived by reducing molecules like glucose into two molecules of pyruvate.

Cyanobacteria evolved and started to capture the energy of sunlight and as a byproduct released oxygen via photosynthesis. Over time this changed the composition of the atmosphere such that it became very oxidative and toxic to many organisms. We talk about global climate change today but this event was on a whole different scale.

By incorporating these symbionts our cells gained the ability to process oxygen for metabolism so they could adapt to the new environment. The endosymbiotic bacteria took the byproduct of glycolysis i.e. pyruvate and converted it to CO2 as a byproduct via oxidative phosphorylation. That’s why humans can eat carbon food sources extract the energy and exhale the carbon waste product as CO2. Over many generations these symbiotic cells lost most of their original DNA and became organelles in the cytoplasm called mitochondria. But they still carry a ring of DNA that is just over 16,000 base pairs long. It is circular in structure just like most bacterial genomes – it is not packaged in a chromosome. There are many mitochondria in each cell’s cytoplasm and each mitochondria contains a single circular strand of DNA.

During reproduction the human sperm does not transmit mitochondria to the zygote. Therefore all the mitochondria and therefore all the mitochondrial DNA in the zygote is from the mother. Mitochondrial DNA unlike nuclear DNA never exchanges DNA. It remains the same from generation to generation unless there is a mutation.

About 24,000 years ago a mutation occurred in the mitochondrial genome of a single female. That mutation is diagnostic for the U5b mtDNA haplogroup. All living people (male or female) today within the U5b are descendants of that single female who lived 24,000 years ago. So yes all people with the U5b mtDNA haplogroup share the same maternal ancestor. But they may have different maternal lineages to that same female ancestor. Since that time there have be other single base-pair mutations in single females. All descendants of these females can unambiguously be distinguished from the descendants from all other females because they carry this mutation plus all previous mutation of U5b. Subsequently more mutations occurred over time. And you can see how this forms a phylogenetic tree with a terminal set of mutations identical to the tester in question. This is a fact and can be proven.
The person who tested posted some markers:
mtDNA Markers

16,224 C
16,270 T
16,311 C
73 G
150 T
263 G
279 C
315 CC
517 T

But they didn’t post which reference they were from. We have two major references for a “standard” mtDNA sequence. Without knowing which one these data are useless. So that’s another thing we need to include. What these tell us is at base-pair 517 the person who tested has a mutant-type T instead of the value of the reference. At 315 you can see they have a C instead of the wild type reference plus an insertion of an extra C. etc.

So our job is to take the genealogical tree based on paper records and overlay it onto the phylogenetic tree.

If the genealogical tree is certain than Francoise Martinet will have carried mitochondrial DNA with the same mutation carried the U5b haplogroup plus the terminal mutations of the person tested (possibly minus one). If the genealogical tree is certain than all other matrilineal descendants will also be in the same U5b haplogroup. However, they may be found to carry a new single point mutation. That can’t be ruled out. Mutations are natural. They just occur rarely in mitochondrial DNA. But we compare these mutations to the known tree to make sure this is a new mutation. That’s pretty simple.

We can’t assume the genealogical tree is certain. And we can’t assign it an arbitrary value of certainty from 0% to 100% at least not scientifically. The tree is a model and we find evidence to support or disprove the model. We use samples to scientifically prove the phylogenetic tree.

However, if a second tester has the exact same mutations as the first tester we can determine that they shared the exact same maternal ancestor. There would be no other samples necessary to reach this conclusion. That is to say they share the same maternal ancestor on the phylogenetic tree. And by testing more people we can refine the date for the emergence of the female who had the last mutation that formed the terminal branch in the phylogenetic tree.

Can we say with any certainty based on mtDNA genetics alone that the first two people who have matching results are both descendants of Francoise Martinet? No not really. For example her husband could have had an unrecorded first wife – the married date could have been recorded wrong or forged, etc. (In other words we could have had a green fish from Nevada). Or they may have both descended from a female who lived before Francoise Martinet back in France. And there is no additional number of tests that will ever prove it.

But we have a model and we look at the data we use in genealogy to construct this model and DNA is probably the strongest evidence we have to support it. We reason that there was a founding population with very few women and one of these women was Francoise Martinet. This was a bottleneck as Sharon pointed out. If two people who claim to be descendants have the same mtDNA mutations that’s darn strong evidence that their genealogies are correct! It is better evidence that most of us will ever have for an ancestor this ancient. So part of this is possibly how a biochemist like me uses the words “proof, support, predict” and how they are used in the social sciences and genealogy. I think most genealogists would call that “proof.” I prefer the words “strongly supports” this model. The bottleneck makes it almost undeniable but scientists don’t like to use the word “prove” unless we really mean it. Like I can prove 2+2 =4. I can prove energy is conserved when a photo elevates an electron to a higher energy orbital. That’s why we call evolution the “theory of evolution” – it is a model like genealogy and it is highly supported by the evidence. I use the word “disprove” much more often. If I can find a fact from DNA analysis that is not consistent with your genealogy I have disproven the model. DNA can be used to disprove genealogies easily. So I much prefer to disprove things than to try to prove things. But I do like evidence that supports a model too.

I agree with a lot of things Jan is saying – a negative match *is* data. That’s where the fun begins and we get to start testing our model. Usually a weak point will be found quickly.

So we use the DNA samples to prove the phylogenetic mtDNA tree. We overlay the genealogical tree onto the phylogenetic tree in order to support out model. We look for evidence that doesn’t match our model. Say we get a third person who doesn’t match? We start from the bottom of their genealogy and work our way up looking for an error. Alternately we use mtDNA, autosomal DNA and Y DNA testing to prove or disprove their genealogy a few generations at a time. Eventually we will find the error at least in many cases.

I’m not sure where this idea came about that autosomal DNA is only good for four generations. It can be critical in a case like this where we may get a third person who doesn’t match on a mtDNA test. Then we can use autosomal DNA to work our way up all three trees to look for evidence that doesn’t match.

Autosomal DNA can go back much further than four generations but not for all of our ancestors – only for some of our ancestors. But I have DNA that I can trace all the way back to the Mayflower. Each generation back the match gets smaller and smaller but it’s the same segment getting passed down. But I can’t trace autosomal segments back to other ancestors in my tree. Why? because I either don’t carry any DNA from those ancestors or the DNA I do carry from them either is no longer carried by any of my cousins or none of the cousins who do carry this same segment have taken a DNA test.

How far back does autosomal testing work? The answer is it depends on which part of your tree you are looking at. It will vary from branch to branch.

It is important when reading about autosomal matching to make the distinction between:
1) the probability of your personal DNA sample matching a specific remote cousin via your MRCA
2) the probability of your DNA matching *any* remote cousin via that same MRCA
3) the probability of any two cousins matching via that MRCA.

That’s really, really important because you don’t have to match a specific person to prove your MRCA. For example you might match their second cousin. Alternately that specific person may not match you but they may match your second cousin. And that’s all that is needed to prove the relationship assume you get enough matches to triangulate. You can prove you share a very recent common ancestor with a 2nd cousin and then use your 2nd cousin’s DNA to prove a relationship to a more distant ancestor using that closer ancestor as a gateway. So if you think about it you can “walk” your way from ancestor to ancestor! But only if you can share matches with multiple cousins! And that’s why we need DNA sharing on GENI. Because we can all use other GEDMATCH kits to walk our ancestors. This becomes a very powerful tool to track down mismatches in mtDNA or Y DNA. And in some cases it can be used to go very far back.

Thank you Roland Henry Baker, III I just ordered my DNA Test yesterday

Thanks for spending time on that excellent summary , Roland. You're a very good teacher. I'm going to put it on the project as reference material.

Awesome Bill!

Thanks Sharon!

OK - Hold on to your seats as I have some breaking news! I cannot break this news by staying anonymous as anyone can easily see on which profiles I worked the last few days. So I break the news to everyone at the same time and in the same interest that I meant this discussion.

I have been contacted by another user who broke the news that her mtDNA differs from her South African progenitor's 'known' mtDNA. I have been given permission to share the news with Geni.

I first had to check her line and yes, it is legit and I sourced every maternal profile. (I am bad at multi-tasking) - and can conclude that her paper trail is as accurate as can be.

Now, I could at this stage not check the paper trail of the other maternal descendant as one of those profiles is marked and Geni does not (yet!!) provide maternal links, but shortest links. Pleassssse!

I wonder if we cannot use this case as the first of many to see what the 'implications' and reactions are. And what we can learn in the process and use in future.

The progenitor is known and actually mp'ed with the single sample of mtDNA. Catharina (Catrijn) van Malabar, SM/PROG

The two mtDNA samples are U2c and N21 and thus definite conflicts.

U2c: Beth Hawkins

N21: Charlette Louise Hoppe

I know that the N21 paper trail is accurate and have sourced every single profile - matching with at least sources for every single female.

The U2c paper trail also seems legit, except that the mother of the descendant of the child is marked private (perhaps she is still alive?) - making it hard for me who she is and less reluctant to check out that tree.

How can that be that we draw 2 different samples in 2 go's? Could a daughter have been adopted? In one of the 8 non-matching generations - more likely? They only share the first 3 lines of ancestors... if I can believe the Geni 'relationship' path.

Before someone removes anything or break the tree, is it for now not better to 'aknowledge' both samples and we try and find the explanation? Should we get more samples that could increase the accuracy (e.g. there is a smaller chance that everyone is adopted).

Someone collaborating with the U2c tree should please do what I did for the N21 tree... maybe that is a good starting place.

Is it not better to rather just list the number of different samples, per sample type observed, in the DNA fields that are currently in the Curator field? (then users can immediately see how many samples there were and would perhaps be more keen to do the test and come forward if they have different results)

sorry about the typos... more reluctant and acknowledged.

Hi Jan, this is an interesting case. There are a few scenarios that may account for these mtDNA results. One is that somewhere along the maternal line, there was an adoption. Say a woman dies in childbirth, leaving her husband with a newborn along with several other children. The husband can`t care for the infant and work to support his other children, so he gives the newborn girl to someone else to raise. (Maybe a brother? a sister? a neighbor?) That newborn girl would then have a paper trail with her adoptive family and not her biological family, and that paper trail would look legit.

The other situation could be that these two women are related, just not on the maternal only line. More research will help solve this case.

In the mean-time, keeping both haplotype results is a good idea.

Ian asked me about reporting mtDNA results. I answered him at the bottom of this page:

http://www.geni.com/discussions/152365?msg=1063783

I think the first thing to do is collect and report all the information about the test and post that. If we don't have room in the biography we could add it to the discussion section on the profile and mention that in the biography. If they both tested at FTDNA have them download their results from the PDF certificate and that should include all their markers and the reference they were compared against. Also state if this is a full sequence or a marker test only. Encourage them to post their sequence on the NIH's GENBANK and include a URL.

Great advice from both Noelle and Jan don't disconnect anything. Keep all data.

There are lots of cases were disconnection was / is warranted. For example in the early Leonard line in American four brothers came to the New World nearly 400 years ago: one to Nova Scotia and three to New England and they descended from a royal line - or so the old dusty books told us. DNA testing showed that the Nova Scotia brother didn't match the other three. So further testing ensued. We learned that the Nova Scotia branch was related to the same royal line as originally claimed. But the other three were not at all related to that line but they were all closely related and very possibly brothers. So that one line has been unplugged from the rest because we now have a pretty clear idea of what happened. But that was after a lot of research. And notes are maintained about these data.

Noelle, they are definitely related through many other lines as well. How is that applicable in the mtDNA comparison though?

Roland, is the haplogroup for Direct lines not the strongest test (and cannot change?) And makes the other sequences irrelevant?

Roland... hmm... if we have more samples... yes, then the full sequence could be imporant. But for now not necessary?

N is a huge group - one of the two main branches of L3 from Africa. L21 is generally from South East Asia.

I know very little about South African genealogy and history. What is the history of Cham, Malaysia and Indonesia immigrants to South Africa? Possibly also from Cambodia, etc. What about these peoples and their relationships to the mother country?

Would this admixture be expected in the ancestry of this immigrant?

If we understand these questions we might have some clues about how a female from South East Asia got into the mix.

If we get the full list of markets we can look it up on Ian Logan's site:

http://www.ianlogan.co.uk/mtDNA.htm

Haplogroup N21 - In ethnic Malays from Malaysia and Indonesia Hill, C.; Soares, P.; Mormina, M.; MacAulay, V.; Meehan, W.; Blackburn, J.; Clarke, D.; Raja, J. M.; Ismail, P.; Bulbeck, D.; Oppenheimer, S.; Richards, M. (2006). "Phylogeography and Ethnogenesis of Aboriginal Southeast Asians". Molecular Biology and Evolution 23 (12): 2480–91. doi:10.1093/molbev/msl124. PMID 16982817

Tracing the Austronesian Footprint in Mainland Southeast Asia: A Perspective from Mitochondrial DNA 2010
http://mbe.oxfordjournals.org/content/27/10/2417.full

A Mitochondrial Stratigraphy for Island Southeast Asia
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC1876738/

Good question Jan! As stated I am ignorant about the genealogy and history of South Africa. So I was surprised when you stated that one of the descendants tested was from N21 which derives from Southeast Asia - see above.

We need to see if this is a full sequence or a marker test or if it was just a "predicted" haplogroup based on a couple of markers in a panel like 23andMe does or NatGeo does. Because if it is just predicted the haplogroup call could be way off. And that's going to really through off the investigation. If we have a female from Southeast Asia as progenitor that could offer clues. But as I said N is a super-group which spans the whole globe and if the call is wrong we could be looking in the wrong places.

If they tested at FTDNA, the type of test and all the markers and name of the reference used would be a good start and I believe this is on the downloadable PDF certificate they give you. So it can be cut and pasted.

The full sequence is always nice but you would want to email that off to Mr Logan and that will take at least two weeks to process. Still it could be very interesting especially for the N21 sample.

Above I meant to type N21 is from Souteast Asia not L21. Very interesting!

N is also the mother haplogroup of U:

http://www.phylotree.org/tree/main.htm

On the other hand we have U2c which is common in India. Does the progenitor have a historical link to India?

So yes, we really want to know if these are based on a full sequence or a partial sequence or just a couple of markers. If both of these are based on a full sequence that we can start by looking that these geographical origins and compare this to the historical origins of the progenitor. Whichever matches the progenitors origins would probably satisfy the requirement of a null hypothesis. In other words if the progenitor is from Indonesia then N21 is probably the correct call. If the progenitor is from India then U2c is probably the correct call. If the ancestor is from Europe - that we are in deep water over our head :) But it would give us a null hypothesis to start with.

Catharina (Catrijn) van Malabar, SM/PROG

Birth: circa 1637 Malabar or Coromandel in India

Hmmm another piece of South African puzzle, is that a person that stepped on land here (progenitor), was attributed to the land from which he or she left port from, not land of birth. So we may have to assign probabilities there too...

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