Catharina van Malabar, SM/PROG - DNA: U2c or N21?

Another direct Matrilineal Descendant of Catharina (Catrijn) van Malabar, SM/PROG has tested as mtDNA Haplogroup N21

Glynis Van der Watt, N21's direct matriline on geni:
>Private
>Barbara Jacomina Nel
>Maria Catharina Fitzgerald, e9f1
>Geertruida Susanna Grobler, d12e8
>Maria Catharina Klopper
>Maria Catharina Venter, b3c4d2e1
>Anna Catharina Venter
>Katharina Bezuidenhout
>Maria Catrina Bezuidenhout
>Catharina Pyl
>Cornelia Cornelisse Claassen, SM
>Catharina (Catrijn) van Malabar, SM/PROG

As Charlette Louise Hoppe points out - this is her second cousin, once removed - so it's pretty strong corroboration of Catharina van Malabar's likely mtDNA haplogroup being N21.
(Also that Charlette's ancestor with the male birth certificate, was female!)

(Sorry Charlette - I know I dropped the ball on this for a couple of weeks. I've just come back from a month cruise up the West slave coast of Africa, and promptly landed in bed with bronchitis for 2 weeks. My brain has holes in it :-( ;-( )

Now, given that Beth Hawkins's U2c matriline to Catharina goes through her attributed daughter: Adriaantje Gabrielsz, SM

Beth >
Mary Cecilia Thompson Sellars Hawkins >
Mary Cecilia Williams>
Elizabeth Ann Williams>
Anna Cecilia Booysen Williams>
Johanna Catharina Elizabeth van Zyl Booysen>
Catharina Elisabeth Oberholzer>
Geertruy Jacomina Viljoen>
Elizabeth Catharina van der Westhuizen>
Anna Elisabeth van Eck, c4>
Elizabeth Bronkhorst>
Geertruyd Boshouwer, SM>
Arriantjie Gabrielsz Van Cathrijn, SM>
Catharina van Malabar, SM/PROG

I think that a likely scenario is that Adriaantje Gabrielsz, SM is U2c, and the attribution of her as Catharina's daughter is incorrect.

From Arriantjie's About - the attribution appears to come from The First Fifty Years Project's using Mansell Upham's article, 'The Soetkoek Syndrome'

Now Mansell is a fantastic researcher, so first prize would be to get him involved here.

I can't find his article - all I can find is this:
Notes from http://www.ballfamilyrecords.co.uk/robberts/I092.html:

[Adriaantje Gabrielsz] was identified as the voordogter of Catharina, the wife of Cornelis Claasz (Kees de Boer) by Mansell Upham in his excellent article, The Soetkoek Syndrome, based on the evidence of her marriage entry in the Cape Town register. (Mansell Upham, The soetkoek syndrome, in Capensis 2/2001, pages 27-30).

I have assumed that the child with Hendrick Speldenbergh was hers, since Elsie appears later in time in connection with this family (see below). Rather circular reasoning, but there it is!

She also appears as a baptismal witness for her granddaughter Ariaantie, child of her daughter Elsie Speldenbergh, in 1702. The other witness is Robbert Jansen, husband of her half sister Catharina Cornelisse.

In addition, her daughter, Elsie Speldenbergh, appears as a baptismal witness at a number of the baptisms of her cousins, children of Adriaantje Gabriels' half sisters, the children of Kees de Boer and Catharina his wife.

In 1719 an enquiry found her poor and unable to pay her debt of 540 gulden, incurred by her husband Pieter Gerritsz. (source: TANAP: Cape Resolutions, C51, pages 53-56)

Further Discussion on Adriaantje Gabrielsz, SM will take place here: https://www.geni.com/discussions/157268

Private User has raised the question again, here:https://www.geni.com/discussions/158474?msg=1097778
According to Geni.com, Catharina van Malabar is the mother of:
1. Cornelia Pyl (Claasen), b3 SM
2. Aaltie Cornelisz, SM
3. Maria Claasen, SM
4. Catharina van Hoorn (Cornelisz), SM
5. Arriantjie Van Cathrijn (Gabrielsz), SM

However, Catharina van Malabar's mtDNA haplogroup is given as N21, whereas (her daughter) 5. Arriantjie Gabrielsz haplogroup is given as U2c.

i.e. DNA does not corroborate that Arriantjie Gabrielsz was the daughter of Catharina van Malabar, SM/PROG; that is if the N21 haplogroup attributed to Catharina van Malabar' is correct.

"She was identified as the voordogter of Catharina, the wife of Cornelis Claasz (Kees de Boer) by Mansell Upham in his excellent article, The Soetkoek Syndrome, based on the evidence of her marriage entry in the Cape Town register. (Mansell Upham, The soetkoek syndrome, in Capensis 2/2001, pages 27-30)."

The following baptism given as evidence on First Fifty page:
http://www.e-family.co.za/ffy/g7/p7069.htm
dito (13 November) een slaevinne kint van den E.H.Comman: Quaelbergen, wiert genaemt Adriaentje de moeder Catharyn tot getuyge stont in persoon van de Juffr Quaelbergen haer slaevinne, 1665-1695, Genealogical Society of South Africa, eGSSA Branch.

Private User says there: onlyCharlette Louise Hoppe, Glynis Van der Watt, N21 and their shared matrilineal ancestor Maria Catharina Fitzgerald, e9f1 (through triangulation) -have confirmed haplogroup N21. Cornelia Cornelisse Claassen, SM should be given an unconfirmed N21? (this could only be confirmed by 2 matching lines stemming directly from her).

Likewise Beth Hawkins is confirmed U2C. Her ancestorAdriaantje Gabrielsz, SM is only an unconfirmed U2C?

Until the tree is dismembered Catharina (Catrijn) van Malabar, SM/PROG should be N21?/U2C?

This is a crucial point, that I was too busy dancing on the table about TWO cousin descendants testing N21 to notice. Of course all we've confirmed with this tri (bi :-) angulation, is the Haplogroup of their most recent shared matrilineal ancestor: Maria Catharina Grobler Fitzgerald.

=So Catharina van Malabar, SM/PROG should still be N21?/U2C?=
I agree.
Any thoughts from others?

Please see my dad's line up to her and dad's dna:

Joseph Philippus (Seffie) Greyling born 1928

DNA Markers: (through the male side ) R-ZP91
(though the female side) U2b

Thanks Wilma Basson ( born Greyling)

Wilma's line leads to Maria Jacobs van Batavia, SM/PROG not Catharina (Catrijn) van Malabar, SM/PROG.

So sorry all - I 've had a very big blond moment here! Yes of course - Wrong dna connection to the wrong person! Still learning! Kindly ignore all my comments about my dad's dna to Catharina and her daughter please. Sorry!

:-) It happens. Read the mtDNa project page:https://www.geni.com/projects/South-African-mtDNA-Female-Progenitor.... It explains. It also includes both women.

See the DN of her father (added today), it is probable that she and her older sister were the daughters of Elizabeth (Ann?) Snyman, and not Booysen - therefore possibly that Beth Hawkings is not a mtDNA decendent of Catharina v Malabar... trying to build the bridge here.

Would ideally require the DN of Elizabeth Williams (Snyman)... anyone?

Jan, can you please supply a link, for Elizabeth Williams.

Elizabeth Williams

DN of whose father?

Sorry, yes, meant Elizabeth Anne Williams - thanks for that question - her father Thomas Alexander Williams

I wonder, in the will of her father and his 2nd wife, the 2 younger children receives a bit more than the 3 elder children, and on the next page, they appoint the 2nd youngest as the curator . Together may point that the first 3 was out of the first wedlock with Snyman.

Referring to this page and the next:

https://familysearch.org/ark:/61903/3:1:3Q9M-C91Q-J9YL-W?i=1382

Ah. Thanks - I understand.

Jan, am I understanding from your note:
"On her husband's DN - although it is printed that she died in 1893, there is a paper correction, later scratched out, that says 1916. Let's keep out options open until proven."
that you cut the link on this line and changed the mother to Elizabeth Snyman Williams because of a crossed out pencil writing on the DN? That doesn't make sense to me. They didn't cross out the death date 1893?

Maybe I'm not following you so well?

These are my thoughts on that:
1. The DN clearly says that children from different marriages should be indicated separately - & this isn't done.
2. If wife 1 Elizabeth Snyman died in 1916 - why is the May 18, 1893 death date, so specific?
3. If wife 1 Elizabeth Snyman died in 1916, then all the children are likely to be hers, except Aubrey b 1916. (His older brother, Martin is already a major in 1928). That means Anna Booysens had her first child at around 44 yrs old. Not impossible; but not the most likely of the scenarios.
4. Which leads to the question of why the two youngest boys share half of the money. They will need more because Martin is the guardian of Aubrey & will need to be able to pay for him until he is a major. (The two oldest girls are married; & the middle brother appears to be in prison! Perhaps he was a warden, but obviously not an ideal guardian from the parents' point of view :-))

What do you think?

The DN of Thomas (eldest son - Thomas Alexander Williams) is clear that Booysen was his mother. But that leaves us still with the two eldest sisters, which both could have been born around or before 1893 (christened +-1893) even in the case where Snyman's DOD is 1893...

Elizabeth's 8 August 1897 birthdate is taken from the MyHeritage profile created by her own daughter, according to the Overview on her profile.

Uploaded Death Notice for Anna Cecilia Booysen Williams

Thanks Raymond *, but wish it said more :-/

Thanks, Raymond - that's helpful. I added the citations. It seems to add another daughter - Lily Ann Williams.

No that must be Elizabeth Anne Williams.

My mtDNA (Jan Stephanus van Heerden, (Fanie) y R-FGC39522 mt U2c1) has been tested as U2c1 and Adriaantje Gabrielsz, SM is on my matrilineal line. It goes up a different line than Beth's line: Gerbrecht Bezuidenhout, SM.

Hope that helps the discussion

Thankyou, Fanie. I haven't had a chance to answer your message because I wanted to have time to plot out the implications so I could say more than just, "great." :-)
You are a star!

Thankyou, Fanie. I haven't had a chance to answer your message because I wanted to have time to plot out the implications so I could say more than just, "great." :-)
You are a star!

Thankyou, Fanie. I haven't had a chance to answer your message because I wanted to have time to plot out the implications so I could say more than just, "great." :-)
You are a star!

That's great news Fanie van Heerden, b1c9d3e5f5g2h8i1j2k1 !
Many thanks for bringing that to our attention. Your line triangulates with Beth's to confirm that Arriantjie Van Cathrijn, SM was U2c1